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AlcohoL!!!!!

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burnt said:
I think that clears up intent rather well. I can see the word entheogen being used more for for a substance in which the intent for spiritual growth or psychological growth basically healing and gaining knowledge is there. I just don't like throwing divine with it sounds too eh presumptually religious i guess.
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Hey Burnt,
I'm concerned about Atheistic people seeming to give up their right to the use of substances in the name of psychological growth, healing and gaining knowledge. I think that the fundamental right to use a substance that facilitates these objectives for any person should be protected in the exact same way that "sacraments" are protected in the name of religious freedom. I think that people that are overly concerned about their search for psychological growth being equated with their religious freedom may be shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to the protection of an accepted fundamental right.
 
Aegle said:
I definitely agree that intention is everything but I don't think its enough personally to change an enthogens worth or meaning. Enthogens are door ways for me to access sacred and ancient knowledge so that I can grow as a person. If someone journeys with enthogens with a negative or ignorant intent that persons experience in turn will most likely not be productive or positive. You get back what energy you send out. Im not Christian in any way shape or form but I have no problem with the word enthogen, yes in some terms the word does refer to a or godlike presence the way I see it god is just a representation of energy in itself.


Much Peace
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Much Peace Aegle!

Without getting into a debate about god(dess):


If someone journeys with enthogens with a negative or ignorant intent that persons experience in turn will most likely not be productive or positive.
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I think much of this debate is over the definition of entheogen. To me Entheogens are created by man, meaning before man, these plants and funguses were just that, plants and funguses. When man (woman) came along he found use for some of these plants in a ritual and healing way.

The use of these plants/funguses for enlightnement is a relatively NEW thing. Before the 1950s-60s the only people to use these substances for the most part were people that found they were useful in HEALING others. They were used as medicine, purely and simply just medicine. Ayahuasca, mushrooms, peyote and other mescaline containing cacti, datura's, coca leaf, and most other entheogens were just called medicine. Even today in Brazil, Peru, and other S. American countries these sacraments are not used to find the god within, they are used to heal people with physical, mental, and spirtual malaise. Ayahuasca is frequently referred to even today as The Medicine.

Entheogen itself is a rather new term. Using psycadelics as many of us do now, for spiritual growth, exploration, and enlightenment is a relatively NEW use of them. Medicine, they were and are all just medicine.
 
But weren't they also used for war and for sex and by priests who cut out the hearts of slaves? Invading Western culture put an end to all this, and perhaps some of it was a bit decadent; but I wouldn't go so far as claim all of those uses are spiritually lacking, just because Western priests deemed them so. I for one would like to see Shamanism return to its most ancient and wild origins. I don't know all the implications of the term, "medicine," but I have a feeling that it's only but a portion of what entheogenic use has historically comprised. Most shamans became shamans by disappearing into the wilderness and consuming all sorts of entheogens and essentially achieving a sort of enlightenment that would allow them to spiritually guide their tribe.
 
Hey Burnt,
I'm concerned about Atheistic people seeming to give up their right to the use of substances in the name of psychological growth, healing and gaining knowledge. I think that the fundamental right to use a substance that facilitates these objectives for any person should be protected in the exact same way that "sacraments" are protected in the name of religious freedom. I think that people that are overly concerned about their search for psychological growth being equated with their religious freedom may be shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to the protection of an accepted fundamental right.
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Yes I agree totally. That's my view point as well however I was just specifically talking about the word entheogen and not substance use in general. For me its about freedom and human rights.
 
amor_fati said:
But weren't they also used for war and for sex and by priests who cut out the hearts of slaves? Invading Western culture put an end to all this, and perhaps some of it was a bit decadent; but I wouldn't go so far as claim all of those uses are spiritually lacking, just because Western priests deemed them so. I for one would like to see Shamanism return to its most ancient and wild origins. I don't know all the implications of the term, "medicine," but I have a feeling that it's only but a portion of what entheogenic use has historically comprised. Most shamans became shamans by disappearing into the wilderness and consuming all sorts of entheogens and essentially achieving a sort of enlightenment that would allow them to spiritually guide their tribe.
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Totally agree with you here one this facet of this issue, its like you took the words right out of my mouth :d


Much Peace
 
Well I was thinking more of the use of Ayahuasca, San Pedro, and Achuma. These were used as medicine. I don't know about cutting the hearts out of slaves, I assume you are refering to the Aztecs and/or Mayans (I'm not all that informed about S. American extinct cultures).

Also can you point me to a reference that psycadelics were used for war. I find that a little hard to believe. Maybe some plants were, but I can't see taking aya and going to war.

Using psycadelics for enlightenment (searching for the god within, understanding the universe, and working through self issues), from what I've read this is a rather new phenomenon in the west. If you go down to S. America you will not find cuerrandero’s using it for this purpose. They use it to heal. They use it to find information, divination, prophecy, and to speak with spirits and the dead.
 
I am doubtful that the more horrific practices of cultures such as the Aztecs had anything to do with entheogens. Christians didn't use them but they still 'sacrificed' people by burning them at the stake 'for' their god, or executing them as a punishment without direct spiritual influence. And the ten commandments were instructions from god, so any capital punishment was a religious one and therefore a sort of sacrifice, whether stoning as their god originally commanded, or later alternatives such as hanging or beheading. After all, god would not be pleased if they didn't punish the person for breaking his commandments, so that sounds like sacrifice to me. The cultural acceptance of entheogens didn't make the Aztecs any more murderous than the Christians. Christians who labelled the Aztecs as barbaric were blind to the nature of their own human sacrifices.

Killing people is about power and control. Making an example of those who oppose you. I doubt the Aztec elite even took entheogens, and they were as likely to be the ones who developed a culture of sacrifice. I expect it was only their subservient priests, and the shamen below them, who were taking entheogens, for healing and divination.

The Mayans sacrificed captured enemy leaders. They were sacrificed to a god only because a good way to keep power is to claim to be a god's representative on earth... the Egyptian rulers claimed to BE gods, and the European royalty claimed to rule by 'divine right' as god's representative. If you're going to kill someone, you may as well try to appease the gods while you're at it. Over time, religion stops being a convenient excuse for getting rid of people and sacrifice becomes institutionalised and believed necessary, as perhaps happened with the Aztecs. The Aztecs started their climb to power making a living as mercenaries, before they turned on their employers, so it stands to reason that their culture would be a bloodthirsty one because murder was their trade.

To me, the violence of a culture seems little to do with the use of entheogens, because their use seems inconsequential to the outcome. At the very least, entheogens have never made a culture MORE violent than others. Whereas religion consistently has, and these religious beliefs do not grow from the entheogenic experience. At most they are influenced by it in my view, but corrupted to suit whatever purposes suit the elite.

But a good question IS... why weren't these enthegen-using cultures less murderous? One answer is that the elite didn't take the entheogens themselves. If tis isn't the case, then maybe some entheogens promote peace more than others. I personally can only see ayawaska and iboga as potentially more inclined towards promoting peace than not. One could study the habits of indigenous tribes in which most members drink ayawaska. Or the Babongo ('Pygmies') for iboga, who all take the entheogen as a rite of passage upon adulthood. One could then compare the violence of their cultures with others. That would be a very interesting study. I have heard that the babongo are very peaceful and happy. I have not heard the same about tribes who use ayawaska, but then I don't know whether I'm hearing about ones who only use it for healing, rather than the ones who use it daily.

There is also the Daime/UDV for aya, and there's one for iboga too (forgot the name])- Christian sects using these entheogens... but their 'peacefulness' would have to be compared with other Christian groups, so comparison would be harder because the entheogens were added onto an existing ideology rather than growing with the culture and influencing it directly.

Acolon_5- interesting point about the use of entheogens only recently being for personal development. There may be a lot of truth in it, but I find it hard to believe that SOME cultures haven't used entheogens in this way, because the benefits are so obvious. The babongo ritual to me looks like personal development- the initiate goes on an introspective trip (perhaps feeling the pain of those he has wronged as some have reported) then when he emerges from the hut, he starts beating and pulling up the bushes that have been planted around it. This symbolises his shedding of all his problems. The village then helps him to pull down the vegetation, such that the hut stands unobscured- the initiate, with the help of his tribe, removes all his mental and spiritual obstacles, and becomes an adult. This sounds a bit like psychological group therapy.
 
It's actually extremely difficult to search this on google, as you tend to get links referring the war on drugs or drug-related violence or MMORPGs.

The Ya̧nomamö are generally considered to be a fairly brutal people, though many accounts of this are disputed, and they are known for using yopo snuff.

In "Shamans of the Amazon," they talk about shamans doing battle and using ayahuasca to see where their enemies were hiding.

I've heard of psilocybe being used for hunting, which in the ancient world was not so far removed from warfare.

The story of the Apache warrior, Chevato, is a good example. Peyote is commonly associated with the warpath in general, as I understand it.

3rd page of this: Avertissement de redirection

In Alan Watts' "Out of you Mind" in the chapter, "The Human World as Self," he discusses the idea that in hunting cultures, men were expected to be able to perform every manner of task, including fighting, and that the shaman was from among such a stock of men. This is contrasted with the role of priest in agrarian cultures, which I feel is what has become of most modern shamans in the aftermath of conquest by Western peoples.


I'm well aware of how brutal Western peoples were and can be (and often are). But to deny the violence and savagery and brutality of ancient and tribal cultures--especially those who have made use of entheogens--is a tendency of new age thought that I feel blinds us to the realities of our world. It also further separates us from our ancestral origins and in that way is on par with organized religion. I happen to hold the more "savage" cultures in much higher esteem than the more "civilized" cultures, if for nothing more than their honesty in their particular brand of brutality.

Also, as I understand it, entheogens such as coca and psilocybe were often reserved for the more elite classes in ancient cultures like the Aztecs and Mayans.


Violent practices are certainly not sourced in the use of entheogens, but they can possibly facilitate spiritual and emotional reconciliation with such practices. My point is that perhaps entheogenic context has less to do with ethics than with sincerity and perhaps exuberance.


As far as enlightenment goes, I would have to imagine that many Southern Asian cultures have implemented entheogens in this way.
 
Good info. I agree that many entheogen-using cultures are not significantly less violent than the Christians were upon their discovery of the new world. My point was more that what we here refer to as entheogens didn't really make them more violent than they perhaps would've been without them.

I've heard ayawaska is used for hunting too. At the end of the day any hunter-gathering society is violent in that it hunts and kills animals, but that's what you need to do to survive. Yeah I'm pretty sure I watched a documentary about the yanomami [EDIT: sorry I'm wrng it was actually the Sanema on epena], they seemed pretty crazy to me, especially on yopo... they're the ones where almost every man is a 'shaman' and they have three-day yopo binges? They were one of the few tribes that Bruce Parry visited in his "tribe" series who seemed... dangerous. The Borneo cannibals seemed friendlier (they only eat bad people anyway)! Maybe the Yanomami culture developed in a situation where they were competing with other tribes for resources, so a violent attitude towards humans as well as animals emerged. Maybe yopo doesn't help by putting you on edge, all those nasty toxins! Obviously the drugs a society uses does have some effect on how it behaves... look at Western booze culture. Imagine if the Inca had perfected cocaine extraction- that wold've been a REALLY messed up society. But then, drugs that can be so detrimental generally don't get labelled 'entheogens'.
 
Ah yes. It's the same tribe I think but I'll check. You'd enjoy watching their shamanic binges, but unfortunately the series isn't online. I was going to add that if when I watched them getting pepped up on their yopo, it didn't really seem 'entheogenic' to me. I mean, they were 'getting possessed' etc but the whole thing seemed... not what an entheogen is about to me. It seemed more like a bunch of friends getting high on cocaine and gibbering at each other, but with a bit of religion thrown in. It didn't seem 'holy', though it may well have felt like it to them... even Bruce looked kind of scary when he was all wide-eyed and edgy. It seemed more like getting high.
 
Sorry it was the Sanema, snorting epena ( 5Meo- & NN- ). OOPS.
Part1
Part2
Ah they are freaky when they're wired for battling spirits but I've done them a disservice I think, oops.

And here's the iboga one I was talking about. This is a true entheogen... if only it wasn't dangerous. Check out how nice the babongo are:
P1
P2

Couldn't find a video of alcohol-induced entheogenic trance.
History of alcoholic drinks - Wikipedia says that the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, Babylonians and Greeks used alcohol in a religious context.
 
acolon_5 said:
Also can you point me to a reference that psycadelics were used for war. I find that a little hard to believe. Maybe some plants were, but I can't see taking aya and going to war.
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I believe that viking berserkers used to take an entheogenic substance before going to battle. Don't have a reference right now but I'll look it up. Also, if you consider kaht an entheogen, that has been used for warfare very recently. When we were in mogadishu the local militants would chew kaht before going out to fight. Very increased indurance and they could take bullets like they were on PCP.
 
Ok Guys I don`t give a shit Alcohol abusing is evil!!!
Take it or leave it BUT YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.Experience is my OWN!!! and it`s horrific!!! It`s experience when my father with his alcoholic habit killed(not intentionally) my brother(my dad`s first son)who was also an alcoholic.I have alcoholic tendency and I cannot touch it even recreationally.
It`s tabu for me.
So ACTUNG! ALARMA! ATTENTION! don`t tell me half word about alcohol cos my attitude will never change!

But any drug you are abusing is evil: Meth, Weed, Booz, Coke, Heroin Devilish is not the drug itself but it high addictive potencial. I deliberately mentioned those five because apart my own experience with booz I seen and knew people addicted to the other four substances and their stories are also very tearful.

I don`t know what`s the point of this thread Infudublum apart rising wave of anger and negative energy.Everybody know alcohol very well, it was used(or abused)for centuries and what?
You drink you get pissed ther is nothing unclear about it!

They have Alcohol section on Drug Forum. Ok that forum is full of idiots it`s understandable, but from Nexus I expecting much more! This is only forum (apart few science boards)where I contributing and spending my time.

C`mon guys! Is so many unanswered questions about many plants, extractions need optimalisation , new extraction(faster, safer, greener )need to be developed. It`s so much work ahead why would we prating about stupid alcohol !

Concentrate on the matter on hand!

Yeah and then it turn to the debate about what and what is not "entheogen" Does it matter?
You making me laugh kids!
 
^^Whatever you need to get by man, just realize that not everyone has the same problem with it that you do.

VisualDistortion said:
I believe that viking berserkers used to take an entheogenic substance before going to battle. Don't have a reference right now but I'll look it up. Also, if you consider kaht an entheogen, that has been used for warfare very recently. When we were in mogadishu the local militants would chew kaht before going out to fight. Very increased indurance and they could take bullets like they were on PCP.
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Amanitas is what I've always heard but also that it's quite debatable. I've heard something like that about khat, as well.
 
amor_fati said:
It's actually extremely difficult to search this on google, as you tend to get links referring the war on drugs or drug-related violence or MMORPGs.

The Ya̧nomamö are generally considered to be a fairly brutal people, though many accounts of this are disputed, and they are known for using yopo snuff.

In "Shamans of the Amazon," they talk about shamans doing battle and using ayahuasca to see where their enemies were hiding.

I've heard of psilocybe being used for hunting, which in the ancient world was not so far removed from warfare.

The story of the Apache warrior, Chevato, is a good example. Peyote is commonly associated with the warpath in general, as I understand it.

3rd page of this: Avertissement de redirection

In Alan Watts' "Out of you Mind" in the chapter, "The Human World as Self," he discusses the idea that in hunting cultures, men were expected to be able to perform every manner of task, including fighting, and that the shaman was from among such a stock of men. This is contrasted with the role of priest in agrarian cultures, which I feel is what has become of most modern shamans in the aftermath of conquest by Western peoples.


I'm well aware of how brutal Western peoples were and can be (and often are). But to deny the violence and savagery and brutality of ancient and tribal cultures--especially those who have made use of entheogens--is a tendency of new age thought that I feel blinds us to the realities of our world. It also further separates us from our ancestral origins and in that way is on par with organized religion. I happen to hold the more "savage" cultures in much higher esteem than the more "civilized" cultures, if for nothing more than their honesty in their particular brand of brutality.

Also, as I understand it, entheogens such as coca and psilocybe were often reserved for the more elite classes in ancient cultures like the Aztecs and Mayans.


Violent practices are certainly not sourced in the use of entheogens, but they can possibly facilitate spiritual and emotional reconciliation with such practices. My point is that perhaps entheogenic context has less to do with ethics than with sincerity and perhaps exuberance.


As far as enlightenment goes, I would have to imagine that many Southern Asian cultures have implemented entheogens in this way.
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Well remember that Shamans in these cultures were frequently outcasts. They lived seperately from the rest of the tribe/culture, were called upon by the leaders (though some were leaders themselves) and their visions were used for many things, I guess including war. The enthogens themselves were not used DURING war though (unless you have information stating otherwise).

In the amazon there are good currandero's and bad ones (bujaros sp may be off). The bujaros use Aya for selfish reasons and for money. Yes there is psycadelic warfare between the good and bad, so I guess in a way you are correct...but this is not war in the traditional sence. It is believed that killing a currandero will give you all of their powers and spirit guides...so the motivation behind it is to become more powerful. Most likely though the "warfare" is a guise for actual murder...there are stories of two shamans going into the forest to battle it out in the spirit realm and only one coming back alive. My guess is that one of these curranderos did not drink aya and simply murdered the other.

Also Aegle,

What you are refering to at the end of your post is more of a right of passage into manhood. Yes psycadelic plants were used for this in many cultures. I'm not sure if we can classify that as using them for enlightenment any more than some of the more brutal rites are (hanging off of hooks, burning, ritual fighting, etc). I guess my point is that the way many westerners use them now stems from the 60's counter culture. Timothy Leary, McKenna, and others were the pioneers for using the plants to expand the mind.
 
I'm addicted to weed alcohol and caffeine for sure. But I really don't give a f@ck society can call addiction evil all it wants I enjoy the heck out of it. Drugs made me do dumbest things in my life but I can still say I thoroughly enjoy using them many different kinds for different purposes.

Also lost friends to drugs and it really really sucks but that doesn't mean they are evil plain and simple. Alcohol included. Anyway no more need for SWIM to discuss this.

Oh yea and psychedelics definatly have the potential to be used for violence. There is evidence in history and some people wig out and get crazy violent and paranoid on drugs for others give them spiritual enlightnment or what not. I think in the future some society will try to brainwash everyone with psychedelics and trick them into believing all kinds of crap and then take away all their stuff. I am sure some already have and still do. I think these ayahuasca cults are.
 
I don't think evil is some supernatural force beyond human control. Evil is as evil does, it comes from human behavior. Alcohol can be dangerous but this does not make it evil. Same for fireworks or basejumping.

Drinking so much that you screw up the ride for your whole family is evil. Alcohol is neutral.

Are there evileogenic substances like there are entheogenic substances? Can a substance be both? It seems like the asnwer is yes. LSD can be used as an entheogen and many have done so since the 60's. Manson may have used LSD an an evilogen but this does not in any way alter the substance itself.

I know a few people for whom alcohol is consistently entheogenic. I call these folks 'religious drunks,' I know other folks for whom it is consistently evilogenic, these are 'mean drunks.' Luckily, alcohol is neither for me. For me it is a simple inebriant that melts ice at conferences and dinner parties. If anything it is a conversationogenic for me.

Edit:
I notice that most the other psychoactive substances discussed here are terrible for use as conversationogens at professional conferences and parties with strangers. What other substances are good for this purpose for other people?
 
So I've been thinking about this thread over a cup of coffee and a pipe. This thread is a great example of the limits of language to communicate ideas. We cannot pretend to separate a word's lexical denotation from it's social/cultural connotations. If we were Vulcan this separation would be possible but we are emotional creatures and our language will always be build of both lexical and social definitions. Connotations are no less real or valid than denotations and should be bore in mind if clear articulation is the goal.

So. . . to move the (interesting and worthwhile) discussion of alcohol and the nature of entheogens forward let's abandon the word 'drug' and substitute 'psychoactive substance.' The latter term should be free of all the very real and negative connotations of 'drugs'.
 
deedle-doo said:
So I've been thinking about this thread over a cup of coffee and a pipe. This thread is a great example of the limits of language to communicate ideas. We cannot pretend to separate a word's lexical denotation from it's social/cultural connotations. If we were Vulcan this separation would be possible but we are emotional creatures and our language will always be build of both lexical and social definitions. Connotations are no less real or valid than denotations and should be bore in mind if clear articulation is the goal.

So. . . to move the (interesting and worthwhile) discussion of alcohol and the nature of entheogens forward let's abandon the word 'drug' and substitute 'psychoactive substance.' The latter term should be free of all the very real and negative connotations of 'drugs'.
Click to expand...

I've been thinking about this very thing for about the last week. Will humanity one day be able to expand language enough to perfectly communicate any idea, or will we somehow have to move beyond language at some point.
 
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