AlcohoL!!!!!

[burnt]

the word entheogen also incorporates a cultural context. without the cultural context it has no meaning.

 

[Entropymancer]

or else im wrong - who here drinks in a spiritual context and feel it creates the god within ?

William James, for one

Infundibulum for another

 

[Phlux-]

sorry dude - i guess im stuck in black and white - i was blown away by ur childish arguing over the internet scene.

 

[Phlux-]

and your their representative ?

 

[Entropymancer]

Sorry if you misread that, but I'm not arguing, I'm trying to engage in a rational discourse. Internet butthurtz is for teenagers.

I just try to correct drug users' misunderstandings on the subject of psychoactive drugs. If users of entheogens don't even understand the subject, how can rationality prevail within society at large?

 

[Entropymancer]

and your their representative ?

:lol:

Who did you say was arguing childishly again? Infundibulum said in the first post in this topic that he uses alcohol as an entheogen. William James (a 19th century American philosopher if you're unaware) was famous for having the same outlook.

I'm no one's representative, I simply have the (seemingly rare?) ability to comprehend the written word 8)

 

[Aegle]

okay check this out

An entheogen ("creates god within," en- "in, within," theo- "god, divine," -gen "creates, generates"),[1] in the strictest sense, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious or shamanic context. Historically, entheogens are derived primarily from plant sources and have been used in a variety of traditional religious contexts. With the advent of organic chemistry, there now exist many synthetic substances with similar properties.
More broadly, the term entheogen is used to refer to such substances when used for their religious or spiritual effects, whether or not in a formal religious or traditional structure. This terminology is often chosen to contrast with recreational use of the same substances. These spiritual effects have been demonstrated in peer-reviewed studies[2], though research remains difficult due to ongoing drug prohibition.
Examples of entheogens from ancient sources include: Greek: kykeon; African: Iboga; Vedic: Soma, Amrit. Entheogens have been used in a ritualized context for thousands of years. Chemicals used today as entheogens, whether in pure form or as plant-derived substances, include cannabis, mescaline, DMT, LSD, psilocin, psilocybin, ibogaine, and salvinorin A.

vs

A drug, broadly speaking, is any substance that, when absorbed into the body of a living organism, alters normal bodily function.[3] There is no single, precise definition, as there are different meanings in drug control law, government regulations, medicine, and colloquial usage.[4]
In pharmacology, Dictionary.com defines a drug as "a chemical substance used in the treatment, cure, prevention, or diagnosis of disease or used to otherwise enhance physical or mental well-being."[4] Drugs may be prescribed for a limited duration, or on a regular basis for chronic disorders.[5]
Recreational drugs are chemical substances that affect the central nervous system, such as opioids or hallucinogens.[5] They may be used for perceived beneficial effects on perception, consciousness, personality, and behavior.[5][6] Some drugs can cause addiction and habituation.[6]
Drugs are usually distinguished from endogenous biochemicals by being introduced from outside the organism.[citation needed] For example, insulin is a hormone that is synthesized in the body; it is called a hormone when it is synthesized by the pancreas inside the body, but if it is introduced into the body from outside, it is called a drug.[citation needed]
Many natural substances such as beers, wines, and some mushrooms, blur the line between food and drugs, as when ingested they affect the functioning of both mind and body.


okay so cocaine, alcahol and nicotine are drugs, not entheogens right ?
dude seriously you need to take some time off the forums or somethings - no need to take this all so seriously and start lashing out at people - honestly dude relax.

In Phlux's post it show exactly where i am coming from Entropymancer you have misunderstood and completely made up somethings that i have said. I don't appreciate that at all, i never said alcohol is a drug i just choose not to drink it because i feel it damages your body and mind and does not enhance your consciousness. I also choose not to smoke due to the harmful chemicals in cigarettes they are far from being natural. If you cant understand where I'm coming from I'm sorry oh and by the way I'm not a dude I'm a lady.

Much Peace

 

[Phlux-]

shot man - nice one - i get it - uh, your so kewl.

 

[Entropymancer]

Entropymancer you have misunderstood and completely made up somethings that i have said. I don't appreciate that at all

Oh really?

i never said alcohol is a drug i just choose not to drink it because i feel it damages your body and mind

I don't take drugs only enthogens pure naturals everything else just harms you in one way or another.

Alcohol is a pure natural drug and it damages your body.

If you cant understand where I'm coming from I'm sorry

I do understand where you're coming from. I tried to make that clear. Not smoking or drinking alcohol are very reasonable, self-aware, and health-conscious choices.

I respect peoples' choice to only consume "natural" drugs (though I admit I'm skeptical of the slippery definition of "natural" that is usually applied in cases like this). I just don't appreciate all of the doublespeak that surround this issue.

 

[Aegle]

I can see you aren't going to see where I'm coming from so lets agree to disagree on this one dude. Now where did i say alcohol is a drug you keep taking my words out of context and meaning. K so no worries.

Much Peace

 

[acolon_5]

Drugs have the capacity to be entheogens. Some have a much greater capacity for this than others.

Well said Entropy.

The whole synthetic vs natural is all an illusion. EVERYTHING is natural or derived from natural sources. Being natural does not make a substance safer, or closer to god in any way.

What makes a substance a good or bad thing depends on the person and in what context they use said substance. Drinking a nightcap before bed every once in a while is a reasonable and relatively safe way to use alcohol.. in this context alcohol is helpful and beneficial.

Drinking until you have alcohol poising every night is using alcohol in a very unhealthy and dangerous way.

Entheogen vs non entheogen. If it brings one closer to god, to me, it is an enthogen. Be it a dose of cocaine, PCP (ack!), synthetic mescaline, San Pedro, or the ritualistic use of high powered Sacred Tobacco. Though some substances will loose their entheogenic luster if used too much...and even turn on the user.


This is a great debat people, please keep it civil. We can disagree, strongly even, but lets not let this thread go down like some others recently.

Oh and its nice to have another female on board! Welcome Aegle!

 

[Phlux-]

sorry for getting overboard - aegle recently experienced spice for the first time and i mentioned that she should come back here - she posted here experience then started reading and posting all over - met with a unneccicarily vicious response i guess i just got a bit irritated.

 

[bufoman]

Alcohol is definitely an interesting choice for a socially acceptable intoxicant. It is an industrial solvent and most other solvents will also get you drunk ethanol is just the LEAST toxic of these chemicals. However I think that all most chemicals can be abused. There is no evidence to suggest that anyone chemical is abused more than others however a particular substance may be more harmful for health or behavioral reasons. Alcohol has some dangerous effects at high doses as it lowers inhibitions, increases recklessness, violence ... Thus you will wake up with itchy jock, a black eye, a crashed car and a child on the way.... (?) As opposed to cannabis were you wake up with some strange ideas written on paper and an empty oreo's box...

As laws are not an effective deterrent for drug use all chemicals should be regulated and available along with honest information. This is the only way to minimize harm associated with their use. Additionally just as companies develop novel therapeutic drugs today in the future they could develop novel recreational substances. Thus "safer" alternatives of our favorite recreational substances will become available. This along with honest information, and medical based studies and treatments will help to reduce the harm of recreational substance use.

 

[burnt]

Thus "safer" alternatives of our favorite recreational substances will become available.

Hopefully more fun too :lol: This is kind thinking that is needed.

 

[Aegle]

Alcohol has some dangerous effects at high doses as it lowers inhibitions, increases recklessness, violence ... Thus you will wake up with itchy jock, a black eye, a crashed car and a child on the way.... (?) As opposed to cannabis were you wake up with some strange ideas written on paper and an empty oreo's box...

I love that comparison SWIM loves smoking cannabis ever now and again so harmless
This comparison represents in a another way just where i am coming from.

Much Peace

 

[Entropymancer]

Now where did i say alcohol is a drug?

I admit that was a mis-inference on my part, and I apologize for it.

If you took my post as vicious towards you (as Phlux did), I'd like to apologize for that as well. It wasn't meant to be vicious in any way. It wasn't directed at any one person... the idea that entheogens are not drugs is a prevalent one, and one that I very strongly disagree with. Your post was simply the most recent one in the thread espousing that notion.

I can see you aren't going to see where I'm coming from so lets agree to disagree on this one dude.

That's taking the easy way out. I thought I did understand where you're coming from, and I'm genuinely curious to find out what I'm misunderstanding, if you'll indulge me.

Where exactly are we disagreeing? The only claim of yours that I really take issue with is the idea that entheogens are not drugs.

Clearly, entheogens are drugs.

From the definitions that Phlux posted and you support: A drug "is any substance that, when absorbed into the body of a living organism, alters normal bodily function." And an entheogen "is a psychoactive substance used in a religious or shamanic context."

The term psychoactive, by it's very definition, means that it alters normal bodily function (specifically cognition).

So by the definitions that you say exemplify where you're coming from, entheogens are undeniably drugs (of the psychoactive variety).

Do we agree on this? Or were you referring to something else when you say I don't understand where you're coming from?

 

[The Traveler]

"Past days, situtions like this, I just killed everybody."
-Frank Costello, The Departed

Or suspended in my case. However I see great potential in this thread. Let's all be reasonable and try to build something up instead of breaking it down.


Back on topic...

In my opinion, the only difference between entheogens and 'bad' drugs is dose and intention:
If you have spiritual intentions and the right dose maybe every 'bad' drug can be changed into an entheogen.

Some drugs however have more potential to be abused while others have more potential to be used as an entheogen. For the part of intention I can't say much since that is a very personal thing, for dosage however you have drugs that have a very thin line between medicinal/entheogenic use and plain abuse.

If we have to talk to the general public about entheogens we have to explain to them that what they see as drugs are still drugs but used in a way that is beneficial instead of harmful. We have to explain to them that we use these drugs as a medicine (for body and soul) and that the we use it in a safe and responsible way.

 

[ohayoco]

If it's addictive or harmful, stay away.
Anything else, have a play!

 

[arimane]

the word entheogen also incorporates a cultural context. without the cultural context it has no meaning.

Unless you apply it to a personal circumstance, like " lsd makes me fell like I've got a god inside,so lsd is entheogen", but it's not usefull when you talk, and you need to share the meaning of the word


I also think, when you can't come out with a shared definition of a word (all this trouble looks to me just a lessical problem, not conceptual), you shall use the etymologic meaning.

We can see the use of droja,drogua in provenzal, droog in neth, dryg in english and drangr in scandinavian wich is dry, dry wood or dry herb.
This is because the dried herbs were much used in herboristery and cooking, so all spice (not THAT spice, like ginger,cinnamom), and all herbs used for healing and cooking in general.

From this point of view stuff like mdma it's NOT drug, but we now call it so.

The reality, from my point of view, is that "Drug" is a shitty word, describing everything and nothing, and should not be used. It's just flame.

And alcohol is bad, drug or not drug =P

 

[Entropymancer]

If it's addictive or harmful, stay away.

No thanks, I like my tea too much to give it up, although caffeine is both addictive and harmful (moreso than people generally acknowledge... lowering DHEA, encouraging iron deficiency, and a whole host of other things)