Amanita muscaria and urine drinking in Siberia

[dreamer042]

[Mod note: this post is a duplicate of this one, where the conversation in this thread started and was split off from]

The question is what ratio is acceptable for Ibotenic Acid to intake as it also works as a stimulant
- That stimulation you are feeling is called excitotoxicity. Ibotenic acid mimics glutamate, the brain’s primary excitatory neurotransmitter, but it causes the cells to fire nonstop, depolarizing the neurons and sending them into a state of metabolic overdrive, basically using up all their energy and causing them to overheat and die. If you want that neural excitation without the brain damage, you can eat some MSG or kelp with your decarboxylated amanita.

Now with respect to the fact that ibotenic acid is toxic and you should aim to minimize your ingestion of it, here's the numbers you are asking for:

Context	Dose	Effects Observed	Notes / Sources
Minimum psychoactive dose (human est.)	~30 mg oral	Initial CNS stimulation: euphoria, confusion, perceptual changes, agitation	Derived from Amanita muscaria content per cap; average cap = ~6–10 mg ibotenic acid; multiple caps usually ingested
Average psychoactive dose (human est.)	30–60 mg oral	Mixed effects: CNS stimulation followed by ataxia, dysphoria, hallucinations; muscimol likely dominant	Co-ingestion with muscimol complicates isolation of ibotenic acid effects
Toxic effects (human)	≥50–100 mg oral (estimated)	Delirium, ataxia, seizures, deep somnolence, vomiting	Human case reports show wide individual variability; fatalities rare
Seizure threshold (human case reports)	Unknown exact dose; likely >60–100 mg	Generalized seizures in severe intoxications	Rare but documented in emergency tox reports
Fatal dose (human)	Not well-defined	Deaths from ibotenic acid alone not confirmed; severe cases resolve with supportive care	Mixed ingestion with other toxins more dangerous
Rodent oral LD₅₀	~38 mg/kg (mouse, oral)	Convulsions, CNS toxicity, neurodegeneration	[Rogers et al., 1982]; [TerMedia 2023]

So that brings up the question, if boiling the DRIED Caps, not the fresh ones in plain water, can get the ratio of IBO to Muscimol in such a way, that it doesnt bring on an immediate dreamstate (or drunken state?) while you are still awake, but that you are mildly stimulated by the remaining IBO which through your body slowly converts to Muscimol and you get that dream state right when you go to sleep.
- How much muscimol and ibotenic acid is present is largely dependent upon how the material is dried, I posted a chart for that. You are correct that the initial excitotoxicity will give way to the muscimol effects as your body converts the material, but you are discounting the neural damage that occurs via that process. The simple answer here is to take a safer stimulant or excitatory compound first and take the amanita after, same effect, less the neural damage. I have a friend that loves to chew a small amount of amanita on the LSD comedown for example. Truth be told, if you are just looking for GABAergic effects to ween off stimulation, there are much safer choices than amanita for that as well.

The post is just about finding out, if acidic water is actually necessary or if plain water boiling is better as it converts the IBO but not as a full conversion, but as a slower conversion as probably happens while drying them on fire.
- This is clearly outlined in the charts, but allow me to reiterate once again. The goal is to convert as much of the ibotenic acid to muscimol as possible. There is abosolutely no benefit to not fully completing the conversion and lots of actual harm. There are safer ways to get a glutamate response than intentionally ingesting nuerotoxic compounds.

I doubt that ancient people had any idea of adding lemon juice to the boiling water in order to lower the PH, they had absolutely no information about PH lowering and the Conversion process.
- Now we get to the fun part! What amanita discussion would be complete without urine drinking? Lemon trees don't grow in Siberia, but you underestimate how pharmacognizant these ancient peoples were. Why do you think they were drinking pee? As you mentioned, much of the ibotenic acid is being converted to muscimol in vivo, but muscimol is fairly poorly metabolized once that process is complete. Up to 80% of the musicimol is excreted in the urine wtihin a few hours. So when someone drinks the urine of a person who has already consumed amanita, they are avoiding the toxic effects of ibotenic acid (e.g., nausea, vomiting, excitotoxicity) and accessing a more potent and refined dose of muscimol. So they went as far as drinking someone else's pee to avoid the negative effects of ibotenic acid and isolate the effects of muscimol, I don't know about you, but I'm not that much of a tranditionalist! I'll stick wih a little lemon juice in my tea, thanks.

 

[blig-blug]

Why do you think they were drinking pee?

Decarboxylation is not the reason, even if it was a consequence. Those drinking were poorer people without access to Amanita muscaria themselves (they are rare in Siberia). If drinking urine had been considered preferable to eating the mushroom, that wouldn't have been the case. The mushrooms were decarboxylated through heat.
I addressed that in my first reply.

 

[dreamer042]

I believe you are mistaken on the point that they are rare in that area. Genetic sequencing demonstrates they evolved in the Siberian–Beringian region and they grow quite prolifically throughout Russia and Siberia in the late summer and fall. It definitely isn't about availability.

It was a common and ritualized practice amongst many tribes and often done within the family and community, not a class level thing. Though I have heard the tales of the rich man peeing off the roof and the peasants standing below with their bowls, I have not found any actual documented evidence of that. These were animistic cultures and it was a much more spiritual and ritualized practice amongst these tribes. We can and should delve deeper into this as it's actually quite an interesting topic.

 

[Sakkadelic]

Decarboxylation is not the reason, even if it was a consequence. Those drinking were poorer people without access to Amanita muscaria themselves (they are rare in Siberia). If drinking urine had been considered preferable to eating the mushroom, that wouldn't have been the case. The mushrooms were decarboxylated through heat.
I addressed that in my first reply.

As a poor I would go into the woods and look for mushrooms for free.
Isn't the story about drinking pee came from observing deer eating the yellow snow? Or was that debunked?

 

[blig-blug]

I believe you are mistaken on the point that they are rare in that area

I may be. I'll look up the sources again.

I have not found any actual documented evidence of that

What would count as documented to you? That's what the first reports claimed. Of course they could very easily be misinterpretations and I'll read up on whether that was later found not to be the case (it would be helpful if you could provide where you read that was not the case).
It would make sense for it to be restricted to a shaman or a similar ritual figure instead of based on economic factors. According to Wikipedia (citing Wasson) that seems to be the case:

In eastern Siberia, the shaman would take the mushrooms, and others would drink his urine

It also says about a specific group (Koryak), citing Wasson again:

Among the Koryaks, one report said that the poor would consume the urine of the wealthy, who could afford to buy the mushrooms

That's the first report I mentioned. It could easily be a misinterpretation of the role of the shaman.

We can and should delve deeper into this as it's actually quite an interesting topic.

As a poor I would go into the woods and look for mushrooms for free.

Not if it's a social taboo for you to do that.

Isn't the story about drinking pee came from observing deer eating the yellow snow?

I hadn't heard of that. But from the Wikipedia article, again citing Wasson:

It was reported that the local reindeer would often follow an individual intoxicated by the muscimol mushroom, and if said individual were to urinate in snow the reindeer would become similarly intoxicated and the Koryak people's would use the drunken state of the reindeer to more easily rope and hunt them

It seems we have read exactly one third of that section of that article each

 

[blig-blug]

Siberia is quite vast, so it could well be that where the Koryak lived (close to Kamchatka) Amanita muscaria is rare. That could explain both why I have read that it was (I'll try to find the source) and why there are no reports (that I know) of urine drinking by other groups.

 

[blig-blug]

they grow quite prolifically throughout Russia and Siberia in the late summer and fall. It definitely isn't about availability.

Do they? The only information I'm being able to find is that they are scarce in Siberia. From Pharmacotheon, which seems to be the main source I read:

This must have seemed an astonishing report when it was firSt published in Stockholm (an English edition appeared in London in 1736), but it was Soon fully corroborated. In 1755 and 1774, Stepan Krasheninnikov and Georg Wilhelm Steller, both members of a Russian expedition to the Kamchatka Peninsula, published descriptions of the area, which confirmed von Strahlenberg's accounts of mushroom inebriation and urine ingestion. Steller went so far as to say: "the urine seems to be more powerful than the mushroom, and its effect may last through the fourth or the fifth man" (for these and other accounts, see: Dioszegi 1963; Dioszegi 1968; Geerken 1992; Michael 1963; Rosenbohm 1991B; Wasson 1968). This unique form of urinary drug-recycling must be attributed to the scarcity of Amanita muscaria in Siberia, and the lack of any other indigenous psychotropic plants. The fly-agaric was alleged to be worth as much as one reindeer per mushroom!

Have you found somewhere the information that it's not scarce in Siberia? It can't just be assumed based on it being the place of its ancestral origin. I'll try to find the relevant information in Wasson 1968, if he stated that they are scarce in Siberia I would consider it solid evidence unless something else that contradicts it can be found.

 

[blig-blug]

Yet more relevant information from the Pharmacotheon. It seems that most ibotenic acid is excreted unaltered, so Ott hypothesizes that what allows urine to be drank again is not the muscimol in it, but the ibotenic acid still in it. I'll quote the section:

It would appear that muscimol is the psychoactive constituent, and that following ingestion of ibotenic acid, a fraction of the material decarboxylates to muscimol, which then produces the inebriation. After oral ingestion of ibotenic acid, a substantial percentage of the drug is excreted unaltered in the urine, but small amounts of muscimol are also excreted (Chilton, unpublished). This mechanism would potentially explain the Siberian urinary drug-recycling practice. After ingestion of the mushroom, the celebrant would excrete substantial amounts of ibotenic acid in her or his urine. A second user ingesting the urine of the first, would cause some of the ibotenic acid again to be decarboxylated to muscimol during digestion, producing inebriation when that muscimol was absorbed; and the bulk of the ibotenic acid would in turn be re-excreted in her or his urine. Thus a 100 mg dose of ibotenic acid might potentially represent four or five 10-15 mg doses of muscimol and Steller's 1774 report that one dose of mushrooms could be recycled through four or five individuals is certainly feasible. Muscimol itself probably does not play a significant role in urinary drug recycling, since it was found that only a small percentage of injected muscimol was excreted in the urine of mice (Ott et al 1975A). This hypothesis has yet to be verified quantitatively in human beings, though it has been demonstrated qualitatively in preliminary experiments (Chilton 1979).

 

[Sakkadelic]

Siberia is quite vast, so it could well be that where the Koryak lived (close to Kamchatka) Amanita muscaria is rare. That could explain both why I have read that it was (I'll try to find the source) and why there are no reports (that I know) of urine drinking by other groups.

Here's a map of amanita muscaria observations on inaturalist.org
Although it's likely that some areas are underreported comapred to others, it seems to be the case that it is abundant in some areas of siberia and scarce in other areas.

 

[blig-blug]

Here's a map of amanita muscaria observations on inaturalist.org

Unfortunately, inaturalist depends too much on the population density of the areas where it's reported (on a first aproximation, you'd then have to consider the likelihood of the local population to post there). If we were to go by that map, Amanita muscaria would be extremely scarce in Siberia: if you zoom in you'll see that in those areas where there are more sightings in Siberia, the number of sightings is around 4 or less (and not in the same year). But it can't be taken at face value, and even less in one of the least densely populated areas in the world. For example, if you look at the inaturalist sightings for Larix gmelinii, a tree that's common in Eastern Siberia, you'll find a low number of them, higher than A. muscaria but not by a lot.

 

[Varallo]

Do they? The only information I'm being able to find is that they are scarce in Siberia. From Pharmacotheon, which seems to be the main source I read:

Have you found somewhere the information that it's not scarce in Siberia? It can't just be assumed based on it being the place of its ancestral origin. I'll try to find the relevant information in Wasson 1968, if he stated that they are scarce in Siberia I would consider it solid evidence unless something else that contradicts it can be found.

Isn’t this the source (Karstenia) for the quote? Also did you read the the Saar paper as it seems to be the only source that keeps coming up. Il add it here too.

 

[blig-blug]

Isn’t this the source (Karstenia) for the quote?

What quote do you refer to?

 

[Varallo]

What quote do you refer to?

This seems to be an opinionated version from the text on page 3 (Karstenia) top left kwadrant, “Urine-drinking has probably been practiced because of the rarity of the Fly Agaric: this mycorrhizal mushroom is not likely to occur in treeless northern Siberia. It has thus also had certain commercial value in these parts.”

Pretty sure they copied one another , (Ott did? and added juicy details in crooked English) albeit one in a more speculative and opinionated way. This paper btw also confirms that A. muscaria is not as widely spread, then again Siberia is enormous and therefore its not very surprising to see pockets or large areas where it is common. In the Saar paper more on that on page two.

 

[Sakkadelic]

Muscimol itself probably does not play a significant role in urinary drug recycling, since it was found that only a small percentage of injected muscimol was excreted in the urine of mice (Ott et al 1975A). This hypothesis has yet to be verified quantitatively in human beings, though it has been demonstrated qualitatively in preliminary experiments (Chilton 1979).

If here by injected they mean blood injection, then that doesn't really exclude muscimol in urinary drug recycling. It could be that muscimol absorption in the gut is low so a lot of it leaves the body without reaching the blood.

 

[Varallo]

If here by injected they mean blood injection, then that doesn't really exclude muscimol in urinary drug recycling. It could be that muscimol absorption in the gut is low so a lot of it leaves the body without reaching the blood.

Spott on, Ott while interesting, is not really an good source, it’s great for anecdotes but it is not science.

Furthermore, I used ChatGPT to extract the locations from the Saar paper and plot them on a latitude and longitude grid, combined with a check for forest cover at the same locations. Based on this, I would argue that the sites of use are correlated with forested areas, which contradicts the conclusion that its use and distribution was not widespread.



For anyone wondering the Taimyr Peninsula does have trees in the southern part before it’s tundra.

 

[blig-blug]

that doesn't really exclude muscimol in urinary drug recycling

Yes, but the point was about the reason for drinking urine being supposedly to drink a fully or mostly decarboxylated product. Apparently most ibotenic acid isn't decarboxylated in the body, so that can't be the reason for drinking urine. The question on whether muscimol is also recycled or not is a different one.

Ott while interesting, is not really an good source, it’s great for anecdotes but it is not science

That's true when he's speculating or reporting on his own self-experiments, but when he cites other people's work I've found him to be accurate. This is a case where he's partially speculating (about whether muscimol is recycled or not), but the point on ibotenic acid being left unchanged in a large proportion still stands.

Based on this, I would argue that the sites of use are correlated with forested areas, which contradicts the conclusion that its use and distribution was not widespread.

It would still be necessary to know if urine drinking was practiced in those forested areas. It could very well be practiced in those areas without forests, and obtained by trading with those in the forested areas. I'll look up some vegetation maps, but I imagine there are plenty of large surfaces without forest even inside the forest belt.

 

[Sakkadelic]

Yes, but the point was about the reason for drinking urine being supposedly to drink a fully or mostly decarboxylated product. Apparently most ibotenic acid isn't decarboxylated in the body, so that can't be the reason for drinking urine. The question on whether muscimol is also recycled or not is a different one.

Yes, the data from the paper dreamer042 shared shows that pH accelerates the conversion but that's only tested at 100 °C and it takes roughly 30 mins for half of the ibotenic acid to be converted, on the other hand, temperature seems to be a significant factor in the other experiments. So perhaps the body at 37 °C is not very efficient at converting ibotenic acid.

After oral ingestion of ibotenic acid, a substantial percentage of the drug is excreted unaltered in the urine, but small amounts of muscimol are also excreted (Chilton, unpublished)

Do you have access to this reference, I'm just curious how that was determined.

 

[Varallo]

Yes, but the point was about the reason for drinking urine being supposedly to drink a fully or mostly decarboxylated product. Apparently most ibotenic acid isn't decarboxylated in the body, so that can't be the reason for drinking urine. The question on whether muscimol is also recycled or not is a different one.

Sure but it’s something that comes from anecdotal experiences so believing that ibotenic acid is converted is not the question. It was part of an ritual or practice.

That's true when he's speculating or reporting on his own self-experiments, but when he cites other people's work I've found him to be accurate. This is a case where he's partially speculating (about whether muscimol is recycled or not), but the point on ibotenic acid being left unchanged in a large proportion still stands.

Well the example I gave in post #46 and #48 shows he is not always doing that. It’s good practice to always read the papers cited, you will be surprised how often the interpretation is related to the position of the author. I think that the point of the recycling is not really cleared up by the experiment he mentioned, it’s much more likely that in oral administered doses the muscimol is excreted unchanged/un-used.

It would still be necessary to know if urine drinking was practiced in those forested areas. It could very well be practiced in those areas without forests, and obtained by trading with those in the forested areas. I'll look up some vegetation maps, but I imagine there are plenty of large surfaces without forest even inside the forest belt.

Well, I wouldn’t be surprised the interpretation that scarcity was the reason is only partially true or only true in some cases.

 

[blig-blug]

Well the example I gave in post #46 and #48 shows he is not always doing that

Not really. It's just the sentence about the reason for drinking being that it's scarce, it may come from one of the other sources that both Karstenia and him are citing. I haven't checked those, have you?

it’s much more likely that in oral administered doses the muscimol is excreted unchanged/un-used.

If that's the case and ibotenic acid is fully decarboxylated, the first urine dose would be much, much stronger than the mushroom dose (it will have the original muscimol plus a lot of extra muscimol coming from ibotenic acid). I'm not saying that's not the case, it may be: I'm pointing it out.
Another possibility, that looks more likely to me, is that both are happening: some muscimol is recycled and some extra comes from newly decarboxylated ibotenic acid. I agree with Ott that it would explain it lasting through up to five users, whereas if it's only muscimol it's unlikely, as part of it is always going to be lost per use. Of course, the observation may be an exaggeration.

I find it odd when so much science and contradicting information is involved .

Involved in understanding the reason for the urine drinking practices, yes. It's not too clear. It's fair that that's not the original topic, and maybe it could be split into a separate thread.