Amanita Muscaria -- With or Without Lemon Juice?

[blig-blug]

Siberia is quite vast, so it could well be that where the Koryak lived (close to Kamchatka) Amanita muscaria is rare. That could explain both why I have read that it was (I'll try to find the source) and why there are no reports (that I know) of urine drinking by other groups.

 

[blig-blug]

they grow quite prolifically throughout Russia and Siberia in the late summer and fall. It definitely isn't about availability.

Do they? The only information I'm being able to find is that they are scarce in Siberia. From Pharmacotheon, which seems to be the main source I read:

This must have seemed an astonishing report when it was firSt published in Stockholm (an English edition appeared in London in 1736), but it was Soon fully corroborated. In 1755 and 1774, Stepan Krasheninnikov and Georg Wilhelm Steller, both members of a Russian expedition to the Kamchatka Peninsula, published descriptions of the area, which confirmed von Strahlenberg's accounts of mushroom inebriation and urine ingestion. Steller went so far as to say: "the urine seems to be more powerful than the mushroom, and its effect may last through the fourth or the fifth man" (for these and other accounts, see: Dioszegi 1963; Dioszegi 1968; Geerken 1992; Michael 1963; Rosenbohm 1991B; Wasson 1968). This unique form of urinary drug-recycling must be attributed to the scarcity of Amanita muscaria in Siberia, and the lack of any other indigenous psychotropic plants. The fly-agaric was alleged to be worth as much as one reindeer per mushroom!

Have you found somewhere the information that it's not scarce in Siberia? It can't just be assumed based on it being the place of its ancestral origin. I'll try to find the relevant information in Wasson 1968, if he stated that they are scarce in Siberia I would consider it solid evidence unless something else that contradicts it can be found.

 

[blig-blug]

Yet more relevant information from the Pharmacotheon. It seems that most ibotenic acid is excreted unaltered, so Ott hypothesizes that what allows urine to be drank again is not the muscimol in it, but the ibotenic acid still in it. I'll quote the section:

It would appear that muscimol is the psychoactive constituent, and that following ingestion of ibotenic acid, a fraction of the material decarboxylates to muscimol, which then produces the inebriation. After oral ingestion of ibotenic acid, a substantial percentage of the drug is excreted unaltered in the urine, but small amounts of muscimol are also excreted (Chilton, unpublished). This mechanism would potentially explain the Siberian urinary drug-recycling practice. After ingestion of the mushroom, the celebrant would excrete substantial amounts of ibotenic acid in her or his urine. A second user ingesting the urine of the first, would cause some of the ibotenic acid again to be decarboxylated to muscimol during digestion, producing inebriation when that muscimol was absorbed; and the bulk of the ibotenic acid would in turn be re-excreted in her or his urine. Thus a 100 mg dose of ibotenic acid might potentially represent four or five 10-15 mg doses of muscimol and Steller's 1774 report that one dose of mushrooms could be recycled through four or five individuals is certainly feasible. Muscimol itself probably does not play a significant role in urinary drug recycling, since it was found that only a small percentage of injected muscimol was excreted in the urine of mice (Ott et al 1975A). This hypothesis has yet to be verified quantitatively in human beings, though it has been demonstrated qualitatively in preliminary experiments (Chilton 1979).

 

[Sakkadelic]

Siberia is quite vast, so it could well be that where the Koryak lived (close to Kamchatka) Amanita muscaria is rare. That could explain both why I have read that it was (I'll try to find the source) and why there are no reports (that I know) of urine drinking by other groups.

Here's a map of amanita muscaria observations on inaturalist.org
Although it's likely that some areas are underreported comapred to others, it seems to be the case that it is abundant in some areas of siberia and scarce in other areas.

 

[blig-blug]

Here's a map of amanita muscaria observations on inaturalist.org

Unfortunately, inaturalist depends too much on the population density of the areas where it's reported (on a first aproximation, you'd then have to consider the likelihood of the local population to post there). If we were to go by that map, Amanita muscaria would be extremely scarce in Siberia: if you zoom in you'll see that in those areas where there are more sightings in Siberia, the number of sightings is around 4 or less (and not in the same year). But it can't be taken at face value, and even less in one of the least densely populated areas in the world. For example, if you look at the inaturalist sightings for Larix gmelinii, a tree that's common in Eastern Siberia, you'll find a low number of them, higher than A. muscaria but not by a lot.

 

[Varallo]

Do they? The only information I'm being able to find is that they are scarce in Siberia. From Pharmacotheon, which seems to be the main source I read:

Have you found somewhere the information that it's not scarce in Siberia? It can't just be assumed based on it being the place of its ancestral origin. I'll try to find the relevant information in Wasson 1968, if he stated that they are scarce in Siberia I would consider it solid evidence unless something else that contradicts it can be found.

Isn’t this the source (Karstenia) for the quote? Also did you read the the Saar paper as it seems to be the only source that keeps coming up. Il add it here too.