ThirdEyeVision
Rising Star
Amor, how did your glycerin/water tincture pan out?
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amor_fati's Guide to Juremala WIP
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ThirdEyeVision said:
amor_fati said:
SWIM's fumarate tincture is the one that uses glycerine.
The experience was powerful enough that SWIM could hardly bring himself to move, so he'll start lowering the dose of spice. There's definitely much more clarity with the pure THH, compared to other harmaloids. SWIM also confirmed his hunch of >40mg THH being needed to sufficiently activate sublingual spice. In SWIM's next experiment, he'll go 6/6/6 :twisted: (two sets of 6 drops THH w/ 6 drops of spice, rather than 10). Hopefully with that dose, he'll be able to practice martial arts and walk around.
So far, this is about the most economical way that SWIM could imagine using these substances. SWIM wants to find the right ratio and make gels containing the spice and THH at that ratio. SWIM would also imagine that it would be worthwhile to keep the ratio and multiply the dose of both substances in order to have stronger and deeper experiences.
freethinker
Rising Star
Emu Oil is another substance that should be explored.
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mumbles
Rising Star
Yeah a filter would have worked if it was pre-wet but swim was afraid of losses which in hindsight is pretty funny because it was all lost :d Swim is pretty sure he had acetates, they were a slow moving goop which had to be scraped and had no visible solids. It tested neutral and when the paper dried there was a little green indicator, so maybe a little freebase was dissolved/suspended(?) in the acetate goo.amor_fati said:
Swim wouldn't spray it in his nose when under the tongue is just as easy. Yeah thats true if more than 3x pumps are needed any space taken up by air bubbles won't have a great effect overall, and since it will be sprayed finely and absorbed quickly the few extra pumps wont be a problem.amor_fati said:
Swim and his guninea pig tried 60mg mixed harmalas in hot vinegar and then 35mg n-oxide both took not even 3/4 of a dropper to dissolve which was good news. No overt OEV besides the usual perspective changes and flowing/warping but the change in mindset and enhancement of colours was amazing. Swim was glued to microcosmos (Microcosmos: Le peuple de l'herbe (1996)
7.9 | Documentary) like it was the most significant thing he had ever seen. Nature docos especially high quality ones are good for that. Next time it'll be 50mg spice and maybe some theobromine taken an hour before so we can lower the amount of rue needed because does seem to have stomach effects. Comparing it to his windowpane trials the windowpane did taste worse but did have a greater effect, now swim believes this might be because the maoi and spice were taken together not 20mins apart, anyone have any ideas?. Did anyone else notice n-oxide has some taste similarities with golden syrup? Weird stuff.
mumbles said:
Ok, now SWIM definitely thinks that what SWIY had floating around was just freebase.
SWIM believes the harmaloids to work best right along side the spice (no waiting period), whether with oral pharmauasca or linguahuasca, and his experiments all seem to indicate this.
SWIM is absolutely convinced that technique is the most limiting factor in linguahasca. He's thinking that the best way to describe how he now does it is to administer sublingually and make like you're going to swallow the tincture but sort of prevent it with your tongue. Just keep swallowing while attempting to prevent the tincture from being swallowed. Do this with about 5 drops at a time and administer the next 5 almost immediately.
For those interested. Recently SWIM tried linguahuasca with DMSO. She is quite hard-headed and for adequate inhibition it takes at least 200 mg of THH. Having had a terrible experience with 200 mg of spice + SR extract, this time it was decided to take only 50 mg of spice with possible 50 mg redose later.
To avoid heavy chemical burn from concentrated vinegar used by FV, 200 mg of THH tincture were evapped and dissolved in 15 drops of DMSO. There was no problem to keep it sublingually for 5-7 min. Aside from some feeling of warmth there was no taste. FB DMT was also dissolved in DMSO and taken sublingually. Its burn was unbearable and in 3 min or so SWIM was forced to partially spit it and partially to swallow it. The onset was fast, 5 to 7 min. If it were not for the DMT burn the whole experience would have been very good.
In an hour SWIM redosed with another 50 mg of spice combined with 70 mg of caapi copy, both dissolved in DMSO. This time the onset was even faster. It was kind of a rush that started in less than 2 min. Very strong and beautiful.
In an hour SWIM redosed again with 50 mg of spice alone dissolved in DMSO. There was another quick rush and another 50-60 min of bliss.
Now SWIM is looking for something to convert DMT FB to because she has got a terrible burn from DMT FB dissolved in DMSO. Fumarate is not an option because there is no fumaric acid that she can get hold of.
To avoid heavy chemical burn from concentrated vinegar used by FV, 200 mg of THH tincture were evapped and dissolved in 15 drops of DMSO. There was no problem to keep it sublingually for 5-7 min. Aside from some feeling of warmth there was no taste. FB DMT was also dissolved in DMSO and taken sublingually. Its burn was unbearable and in 3 min or so SWIM was forced to partially spit it and partially to swallow it. The onset was fast, 5 to 7 min. If it were not for the DMT burn the whole experience would have been very good.
In an hour SWIM redosed with another 50 mg of spice combined with 70 mg of caapi copy, both dissolved in DMSO. This time the onset was even faster. It was kind of a rush that started in less than 2 min. Very strong and beautiful.
In an hour SWIM redosed again with 50 mg of spice alone dissolved in DMSO. There was another quick rush and another 50-60 min of bliss.
Now SWIM is looking for something to convert DMT FB to because she has got a terrible burn from DMT FB dissolved in DMSO. Fumarate is not an option because there is no fumaric acid that she can get hold of.
plumsmooth
Rising Star
mumbles
Rising Star
Yes this works well, the suction created by swallowing while pressing the tongue down kinda draws some of the tincture drops towards the throat, and even if they make it there it will still absorb but the placement of the tongue to avoid tasting it is still very difficult/impossible. Once you taste it saliva just wells up so swim even considered wrapping his tongue in plastic wrap haha. Another important note is to not drink anything for 20mins after the drops have been administered, just to be sure nothing is washed down to the stomach. It seems that with a straight vinegar tincture the harmalas can be tasted even without apparent actual taste-bud contact (the tongue could be on the roof of the mouth and the head tilted forward and this still happens), more along the lines of the acetic acid fumes one experiences.amor_fati said:
SWIM earlier tried an oral pharma for comparison, he was still somewhat on the fence about whether this sublingual administration was worth pursuing to be 100% honest.
He no longer is.
He had 25g of poor quality caapi (KT) and 36g of high quality white caapi (from Maya)
He mixed 40mg of white DMT acetate with 55mg jungle acetates and put it in the brew. (95mg total)
The experience was only slightly more intense than 50mg THH and 62mg jimjam sublingually (and with 61g of caapi, no duh), but it was wrought with nausea and really wasn't too enjoyable, while the sublingual was nice and euphoric.
SWIM also is very curious to try amor-fati's technique or "Mucosahuasca" it makes much more sense now it has been explained (at least theoretically)
He no longer is.
He had 25g of poor quality caapi (KT) and 36g of high quality white caapi (from Maya)
He mixed 40mg of white DMT acetate with 55mg jungle acetates and put it in the brew. (95mg total)
The experience was only slightly more intense than 50mg THH and 62mg jimjam sublingually (and with 61g of caapi, no duh), but it was wrought with nausea and really wasn't too enjoyable, while the sublingual was nice and euphoric.
SWIM also is very curious to try amor-fati's technique or "Mucosahuasca" it makes much more sense now it has been explained (at least theoretically)
ThirdEyeVision
Rising Star
Trickster said:
Last weekend my friend took his Syrian Rue Acetate tincture and DMT Acetate tincture and evaped about a quarter of the vinigar and replaced with DMSO.
There was no burn and didn't taste any worse than prior to the DMSO. 80mg of Rue and 50mg of DMT was taken over an hour. The DMSO definetly enhanced absorbtion! Last time the same dose was barely noticable but this time it was unbelievable! Just shy of breakthrough.
My friend is now attempting a glycerin/DMSO tincture.
mumbles said:
69ron brought up the taste thing, but SWIM's certain that he meant this in more in regard to powders or other sorts of tinctures--as in with not tasting the alkaloids; tasting vinegar would be unavoidable. In any case, SWIM's never used taste as an indicator, as he tastes it every time. It's horrible, but not so bad as pharma/ana/ayahuasca.
q21q21 said:
SWIM's loosened his technique a lot while maintaining certain fundamentals that seem to be key. SWIM still rubs the tincture in with the bottom of his tongue upon dropping, but then he doesn't worry about so much apart from making sure to continue swallowing while trying not to wash out the tincture with his saliva. SWIM thinks it's probably easier and more effective to explain "swallowing without swallowing" than making a whole technical ordeal out of it, especially since it seems to work just as well as when he was more strict in his discipline. Even when it seems that he's swallowed a bit more than he would like, the shear lack of saliva buildup prevents it from getting too far to absorb properly.
mumbles said:
Yes, this is something SWIM should probably mention in the tek, along with the use of glycerine as a preservative and converting the tek for mucosahuasca.
By the way, SWIM tried the 666 thing, and while he seemed to be coming up just fine, he was incredibly tired that night and fell asleep while checking out the CEV's. He'll give it another go to confirm while he's more energized.
mumbles
Rising Star
Anyone else want to share some trip reports? Swim is getting into the habit of preparing dual doses for each session with his gf in a little 50ml beaker (25ml would be even better to minimise loses) with another little beaker of hot vinegar on the water-bath. Place in there your measured maoi and spice then add the min amount if vinegar and let it sit for a few minutes with a watch-glass (or use excess vinegar to compensate for evaporation) swirl etc until dissolved. Two eyedroppers in the little beaker practically shout out the psychedelic challenge! He isn't a fan of measuring out drops, he would rather know that an equal amount of liquid in each dropper will provide a uniform experience.
Is there a comparison of sublingual absorption efficiency of various DMT salts? FB is too harsh for SWIM to keep sublingually long enough.
Trickster said:
SWIM manages the same strong effects with acetate and fumarate alike. He doesn't hold either under his tongue for any length of time, really.
The OP and the wiki have been updated for mucosahuasca.
amor_fati said:
Could you be more specific? How long would be enough? Is it OK to spit harmalas and spice after a certain time without a significant loss of goodies?
Trickster said:
Read SWIM's recent editions to the tek. SWIM doesn't wait, because with the way he does it, there's nothing to wait for. He absolutely does not spit anything out. He allows the tincture to coat his oral mucosa (under the tongue, as well as the lining of the throat). This would not work if one were to wait with the substance under their tongue, allowing the saliva to build up, as the buildup of saliva would dilute the tincture--dilution having two adverse effects: Washing the tincture too far down the digestive tract to contribute to the effects and reducing the rapidity of absorption into the mucous membrane.
Think of it like this: Your entire mouth and throat is coated with saliva at this very moment, yet you don't have to keep it there, it's just there. If you begin swallowing fairly rapidly, your mouth dries out, and the little bit of saliva left never really gets swallowed, it just coats your throat. To effectively use a tincture, SWIM finds it best to swallow his normal saliva and essentially allow the tincture to take its place in his mouth, starting from being spread under the tongue. Some of it will go into the throat, but it will be absorbed before it makes it too far.
plumsmooth
Rising Star
I wonder to what extent a lozenge, or hard candy, would undermine the sublingual goal. I mean being that those membranes are located not only under the tongue but also around the gums, I wonder what the ratio of sublingual absorption to swallowing, and hence stomach absorption, would be with a hard candy/lozenge form? It just seems it would be nice to mask and or flavor the alkaloids in a candy form whereby one could suck on it for a while thereby receiving both the sublingual and some swallowing of juices.
plumsmooth said:
whoa, SWIM is intrigued, GREAT IDEA!
Now although making hard candies might be tricky, SWIM is pretty good at making gummies (jello + tapioca or corn-starch, uber simple) and he's gonna test them to see how well they dissolve, he hasn't made them in a while, then put a pharma dose and see whether it brings him as far as pharma or further (he's very experienced in dose-judging)
if so then they would be super simple to make, just simmer the jello, mix the tapioca with cold water, add the tapioca-water slowly to the simmering jello until thick, deposit into ice-cube trays, add a dose to each and put in fridge! mucosahuasca gummies!
*Excited!*
Perhaps just high concentration windowpane-style gels? Whatever's used, it would have to dissolve fairly rapidly. How about gum? Like with gum arabic.