An Interest in "Alternative" Medicine

[distracted]

Hello people of the nexus!

Been a while since I posted around these boards, but I thought this question would be best to ask here, as there seems to be a large amount of intelligent and knowledgeable people floating around.

Basically, I'm asking for any and all resources people may have or be willing to offer on the realms of more "alternative" medicine, for lack of a better term.

Recently I feel as though I've discovered/decided that I should take up a path of medicine but not so much in the form of a pharmacist, or traditional medical environment (perhaps in said environment but through some less then typical methods.) I think it's worth saying that I am open minded to more modern approaches but here are some of the things I seem to gravitate towards when brainstorming about what I should explore.

This list includes but isn't limited to:

Diet (a very natural, healthy approach. lots of vegetables, fruits, and things from the earth to keep the body clean and pure)

Exercise/Body (a good understanding of how to maintain a healthy physique in terms of yoga/stretches/strength training)

Energy Cleasing/Chakra work within the self. (I've have for about a year been exploring this and my knowledge/ability grows stronger with every day, but more information and approaches are always welcomed.)

Reiki (I have very little knowledge here, but believe it's worth investigating methods/techniques)

Sound-bowl Work (mostly to assist with balancing energies in my self and others.)

Herbal Medications (this could arguably fall very closely in-line with diet. herbs and medications which can assist in treating "conditions" both of the physical and mental)

Psychological Effect on Treatment/Healing (for example the approach of how your mindset will effect your own healing/state of being. of course this is very experiential but the psychological approach and how it interplays. This of course is to me not something you can just "Study." In my mind being "healthy" requires the approach of the spirit, mind, and body. Cleansing the spirit/energies, strengthening the mind searching for and expressing truth, and treating the body right staying in shape and watching what is consumed. There is an interplay between all, and if one is unbalanced the rest will be to.)

I know this is a demanding and exhausting list. But like I said I'm looking for any and all input or sources of knowledge. Books on the topics, articles on-line, people with whom to speak to, including anyone on here with knowledge!

On top of that possible institutions to approach some of the things on the list, such as herbal medication and alternatives in general. The college education I'm receiving now won't help me much more then possible exploration of chemistry (which is something I believe vital to medicine, and if nothing else something I wish to explore) and I'd like to find somewhere more fitting.

I will, of course, be doing my investigation myself and not depending on others to throw answers to me, including exploring the wealth of knowledge on these forums. But I believe there to be many wise people around here, and no harm asking outright for assistance. Anything that you could offer me would be a blessing! This will be a live-long pursuit of mine which I am just beginning to explore. Exciting yes, but also very daunting. 8)

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and look forward to hearing any and all input.

 

[bindu]

alternative medicine is a very broad field

in medicine nowadays all treatments that are not offered by big pharmaceutical companies are categorized as alternative medicine

if you want to work as a healer you should evaluate which diseases you would be able to help with or where your talent+skills are best suited there. If you do not have a background in medicine so far, expect years of dedicated study and training to be realistically able to help people with their diseases directly.

path of medicine you say, well there is much more to it then "just" treating people with medicine. Research and production of medicine is a very big part of the path of medicine id say.

It can also mean working with an organisation that treats patients, play a role there. In that way one can also influence peoples health to some extend.

in any case, treating disease is serious shit. Makes you laugh when the patients get well and is not so funny when a patient die. Not to mention all the other kinds of problems one encounters with applying non standard treatment methods (many)

 

[Laban Shrewsbury III]

Start here...

http://www.badscience.net/

 

[Apoc]

Osteopathy is getting really popular these days.

 

[tigerstrike92]

IMO, the first basic dietary supplement should always be a good all natural multi-vitamin.

 

[EquaL Observer]

Spirulina & Chlorella are 2 blue-green algae which are so healthy you can feel it hit you - I recommend them a lot. With diet I think variety is important... the more various foods introduced to your body the better.

There seems to be a lot of focus nowadays on food awareness... it seems that the masses of man-made things we insert into our bodies disconnect us from them and discourages a healthy metabolic "flow" which has a lot to do with our every day state of being.

But yeah... when reading up on this there is definitely a lot of discerning between truth and bullshit... best of luck with expanding your horizon in this field.

 

[Citta]

Allright, let me play the asshole and make a case against alternative medicine.

First of all, let's not forget that we (and I am assuming that most of you reading this thread are living in well developed countries) have the best medical treatment in history, and the overall quality of this available medical treatment is only getting better. How did we get there? Keyword; scientific method, not superstition, fantasy or alternative medicine.

The most flagrant (and disturbing) flaw in the alternative medicine movement is its utter lack of understanding and appreciation of the scientific method. Perhaps a fundemantal flaw here is that many in these movements are ignoring the fact that science is not a system of beliefs, but a method of finding truth. Often, in the alternative medicine movements, allusions are made to the failure of some technique, medical or surgical, and the conclusions that science is intrinsically flawed as a result. Yes, medicine have a long history of failure, but failure in spesific matters are not the failure of science. Science is a method of approaching truth and is predicated on constantly challenging itself and rejecting what is proven to be wrong. Alternative medicine is predicated on beliefs and dogma, and it doesn't fulfill any of the criteria that are used to develop medicine that works, treats and cures.

Some other arguments are "Old means valid" type of arguments. Lots of alternative medicine is presumed to be effective because it has been around for a very long time, whereas western modern medicine have not. It is popular perhaps because this appeal to validity based on the authority bestowed by virtue of antiquity relieves one of the "obligation" for critical thinking. But it is not a question of what has been around for the longest time, but of what really works. Again, the application of the scientific method shows us what works and what doesn't. And yet again, alternative medicine does not use the scientific method.

Modern medicine operates within a system that ensures that by the time a treatment reaches the consumer marked, side effects are pretty well known, doses are measured with extreme care and the consumer knows what to reasonably expect from it. Furthermore, all medical activity is regulated through licensing, hospital privileges, referrals and peer reviews. Alternative medicine operates completely outside of this system, which makes it both ethically wrong and potentially dangerous. It does not go through the research, testing and safety regulations that is required by school medicine, therefore products sold by practitioners of alternative medicine can be dangerous. They can make claims without the burden of scientific proof, and prescribe things without any precautions for their safety.

Another fact that makes it dangerous is the evident use of placebo; patients feel better mentally but not physically. This can be damaging, for example in the case where a patient has cancer, gets alternative medicine, feels better (mentally, which is powerful) and thinks he or she does not need any more treatment - certainly not from school medicine anyway. This has happened, and guess what, the patients die. Does that sound like a problem? Certainly does to me. Here is a few links for your amusement:

Disney.com | The official home for all things Disney

The official website for all things Disney: theme parks, resorts, movies, tv programs, characters, games, videos, music, shopping, and more!

www.babble.com

Sylvia Millecam - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Another common argument amongst the followers of alternative medicine is the notion that their opponents are motivated by self-interest. The funny thing is that the proponents of alternative medicine seem to have the most to benefit from acceptance of their case, as it is almost always accompanied by a call to buy whatever nostrums they are selling, or books or therapies or other fancy shit they are promoting. Organized medicine however, has been given its "monopoly" by our society. This "monopoly" has not been given to exalt one part of society at the expense of another, but to serve as its watchdog, entrusted with the responsibility of protecting us from false claims and unscrupulous charlatans.

A common, popular myth amongst proponents of alternative medicine that is noteworthy is the claim that mainstream science is not open to alternative medicine and does not research it enough. This is nonsense, as lots of research and lots of money has been spent, and are still being spent, on researching hell of a lot of different methods and treatments. Over and over again it is shown that alternative medicine has no effect at all except for placebo effects.

To sum it up; Alternative medicine is bullshit in 99 percent of the cases, and if one wants to devote time and effort to treat people, learn about medicine etc, the best thing to do is to get rid of nonsense beliefs and start studying real medicine at a university and get a degree and a license.

 

[christian]

As strong an argument that is, we still have to consider Psychadelic medicine of which research was supressed thanks to government policy, etc. Also, science is understaning that most of the time, natural plant medicines work as good as if not better than the pharmaceutical ones. Besides, most medicine is from plants in one form or another like recreational drugs usually are.

-Nature is powerful, unfortunately it's not usually stocked in pharmacies, usually only "pharmaceuticals", so the plant hardly gets a chance,etc. Add to that the fact that most human bodies are damaged by chemical toxins, we now need super strong drugs to treat dis- ease than before, etc, et al.

-No, not all alternative medicine is bullshit, some "normal" medicine doesn't work, yet alternative medicine does in some people.
Please realise that i count psychadelics as alternative medicine too.some may disagree. However people are reporting positive results in terms of treating depression and ptsd, etc with psychadelics, over "normal" drugs. And mental illness leads to suicides, etc. So this is not something silly or bullshit. :shock:

 

[Global]

You should look into this resource:

Amazon.com

 

[Citta]

The product description was full of pseudoscientific terms and explanations, which makes me guess the book is hardly anything to take very seriously.

New scientific understanding of our quantum-state existence and the unseen fields that determine our physical condition

What is this all about? Our quantum state existence and the unseen fields that determine our physical condition? Sounds like a bunch of gibberish.

every health issue has a physical and an energetic component

Energetic component... uhm what? Wonder what the energetic component of my cold I am having now is... Thought it was just a virus, I must have been screwed around by someone!

The meridians, fields, and chakras: detailed information and diagrams about the role of these energetic structures in our overall health

There are no such things that plays any role in our overall (physical) health.

Energy-based therapy

Sounds fun, sign me up on the joke!

For professionals...

For charlatans, yes, professionals, no.

the critical world of our invisible anatomy

Invisible anatomy?

Oh, and yes, I almost forgot the best part. Cyndi Dale has no degree, no license, is no professional. Don't take her stuff seriously. She is an astrologer too, which makes things just so much more sweet. Read a book by renowned professionals instead, I mean like those who have degrees and stuff, and chances are that you'll actually learn something real

 

[christian]

Thanks for the link, Global.

- I guess we have some different personalities on this thread. And i like to enjoy a blend of all types of remedies. I don't think that science has all the answers. There is a lot of scientific studies that are constantly being revealed as worthless, and so called "medicines" being revealed as more dangerous than the ills they are supposed to treat.

- Some things are hard to prove, but we know they exist. like psychadelic visions for example. I know someone who's views are" if it can't be measured or verified scientifically, then it must be a load of crap". I disagree!!

- There is a lot going on out there, and if we need proof and evidence, then a lot of people are gonna suffer and die untill it arrives, because at the moment science cannot supply proof or evidence about a lot of what life is about. That is probably where the Shaman steps in.......8)

 

[bindu]

inspiring replies

btw....

all medicine is basically alternative medicine until it gets established

establishing it means going to series of clinical trials with control groups which show a significant increase in certain medical parameters.

These trials are extremely elaborate and expensive and non profit funding is usually very limited

This effectively means that most treatments can only be established with the help of the medical industry

One would think that a pharmaceutical or medical technology company would lick their fingers for every possible effective method. This is not the case

Like all companies they need a good cash flow to ensure their existence. Which means they need to be able to reap the profits of their work, not provide the cheapest most effective solution for the problems.
Curing does nowhere near provide that level of income as treating does. Which means no funding and propaganda against anything "alternative"



On the other side, "alternative treatments" are often marketed with all kinds of claims without providing proper evidence of effectiveness to the end consumer/patient. Deciding which treatment to choose becomes very difficult for most.


Many alternative treatments are ineffective and/or rely heavily on placebo effects.

There are for example effective alternative cancer cures with very little side effects, not a joke.


Ok, some examples examples about the whole thing.
Who is gonna pay for 100.000-1.000.000 USD a year for chemo/radiation if cancer cures become established? Big player got to eat to ya know.

Other treatments that cure for example chronic backpain in one day. But who is gonna buy all those nice special medicine for those people then?

Ibogaine, effectivly stops addiction for the majority of patients.
Reason its not on the market and relatively unknown is market protection by the established, it was evaluated by a pharma company which scrapped it due to low monetary potential.

Heroin for example was put on the market as an effective cure for morphium addicts with no side effects and no addiction potential. Later it was even marketed as a cure all.
We all know how that story went. But Bayer stays in the game and has also some good medicine going around that might not be here without the company.
Btw much better then heroin is methadone, even more addictive the heroine without the high, and its cheaper to make too! Prescribed for many addicts. Great cash cow product, lifelong sale of daily "medicine".

Well in any case, big pharma&Co all started as alternative medicine providers and got established, partially by providing good healthcare and by a bigger part playing well in the money game.

No money no fundey for the good stuff.


In any case, decision making about any medicals option remains a bit complex. Propaganda as well as effective and less effective treatments from both sides.


Basically thats the way it is in medicine. Its quite crappy but its not that bad, at least we have some kind of established effective medical care and some good alternatives for the lucky, informed or rich.
The rest of the people, well you know, they have to suffer until something changes.


In any case, dont hate the player, dont hate the game but understand it to be able to navigate inside of it. If you dont like the game you have to outplay it, good luck with that, or run away from it.

 

[Citta]

- I guess we have some different personalities on this thread. And i like to enjoy a blend of all types of remedies. I don't think that science has all the answers. There is a lot of scientific studies that are constantly being revealed as worthless, and so called "medicines" being revealed as more dangerous than the ills they are supposed to treat.

Sure, science may not have all the answers. But when it comes to questions about the physical world that we find ourselves in, science is the best, most honest and most effective way to try to answer these questions. Since modern medicine clearly operates with the physical body and all of its constituents, it is science that stands behind all our current knowledge, and it is science that will continue to fill the gaps and enable us to develop better medicines and treatments as well as new medicines and treatments.

The argument that you use here is an old and useless one, and I mentioned it in the long post above. Just because some scientific studies prove to be "worthless", and that some treatment or some medicine does not work or is more dangerous than first thought, it does not mean that we should abandon science and jump into wild fantasies and unsubstantiated beliefs. It means that we should keep on searching and investigating through science, so that we may find better medicines and treatments. Often we learn a lot by making mistakes too.

- There is a lot going on out there, and if we need proof and evidence, then a lot of people are gonna suffer and die untill it arrives, because at the moment science cannot supply proof or evidence about a lot of what life is about. That is probably where the Shaman steps in.......8)

So you suggest we should abandon science in these cases, just because we don't have a complete answer yet, and turn to stupid beliefs and rainforest shamans? Do you think that will help us develop good treatments for AIDS and a variety of cancer? Do you think that this attitude would have given us any development throughout history? That this attitude helps us find any answers? That is, I am sorry, just plain ignorant and stupid. Clearly you must see the flaw in this argument, or I must have misunderstood.

 

[christian]

Allright, let me play the asshole and make a case against alternative medicine.

> Congratulations on your success, Citta, I think you've done yourself proud!!

- However i don't think my comments are "ignorant and stupid"?! like you say. Because i believe that there is a place for all kinds of treatments in life. I just don't agree with your "scientific is the only way" argument. I doubt the others do either. We are more than just bodies, we are energy. I would have thought that you'd be well aware of that, and how alternative medicine like ayuraveda, and TCM ,etc aims to treat such imbalances. I doubt that people are gonna wait for the science "green light" to prove if it works or not, especially when it's been used for 1000's of years to treat a variety of ills, etc.

- Of course, i'm not denying the use of regular "normal" treatment either, there's a place for all types of medicines in life, because life is diverse and complex.

- Citta, i like to use this forum because i believe it's a spiritual based forum, with scientific balance. However i do find that you are heavily biased on the "scientific", and that is IMO not healthy on this forum.

 

[endlessness]

This forum has since its early days stood out of other entheogenic forums exactly because it tends towards the scientific side, and it will keep being in such a way. As it is written often in this forum such as in the attitude page, our discussions (where this fits) have to be based on scientific data, evidence, and reasonable backed arguments. This makes information found in this forum of a high reliability, because we check our sources and dont just say or believe things because someone said so (no matter if its a shaman, a doctor or whoever). Citta's position is not only healthy but it is extremely necessary.

Just because a culture has done something for thousands of years does not mean they do it right (in fact, they can often do wrong). Plus you talk as if all ayurveda and all shamans talk the same. I've said this once and I'll say it again, shamans have VERY contradictory models between themselves. What a Huni Kuin shaman will tell you can be completely opposite to what a Shuar shaman will tell you, for example. So who are you going to follow? Who has the right 'energetic' model? Now if you want to compare ayurveda with shamans, you're even more screwed, since what is a disease in one model wont be on another, less alone the solutions for those problems.

With science, you dont depend on these arbitrary subjective models, you can test out what works and what doesnt. Why do you think science is evolving? You say this as if its an argument against science, that scientific findings are later proven wrong, but that is EXACTLY the strenght of science, that it is falsifiable, that things can be tested and shown wrong. In this way it can evolve, develop. You can depend on the finding of sciences with your life, because it is so damn reliable (I doubt you would have gotten on the airplane to go to Asia if it was built by some ayurveda guru and his 'enlightened information', would you ? )

Lastly, you make a big mistake in equating Big Pharma with science. One is a money-oriented industry run by unscrupulous people that may (or may not) use scientific findings in the making or advertising of their products for generating more profit, while the other is a non-biased method for generating knowledge and exploring/interacting with the universe in a way that can be repeated and shared with others reliably.

 

[Citta]

Allright, let me play the asshole and make a case against alternative medicine.

> Congratulations on your success, Citta, I think you've done yourself proud!!

Hehe, thanks! I am not such an asshole tho, seriously

- However i don't think my comments are "ignorant and stupid"?! like you say.

When you imply that we should abandon the scientific method because science doesn't have the answer to a spesific question of medicine, and instead go see a rainforest shaman or believe in healing, then that is at least ignorant. I don't understand how you can seriously think that this will be of any help? This is not the way we have answered difficult questions in the past, and it is not how we will answer difficult questions now. We answer them through science, Chris. Just read some history and you will see, or make some effort to understand the way scientific progress works.

Because i believe that there is a place for all kinds of treatments in life. I just don't agree with your "scientific is the only way" argument. I doubt the others do either. We are more than just bodies, we are energy. I would have thought that you'd be well aware of that, and how alternative medicine like ayuraveda, and TCM ,etc aims to treat such imbalances. I doubt that people are gonna wait for the science "green light" to prove if it works or not, especially when it's been used for 1000's of years to treat a variety of ills, etc.

What kind of energy do you mean? Yes, we are energy, because matter is "a form of condensed energy" by the equivalence E=mc^2, the famous equation from Einstein that connects energy and matter together as two sides of the same coin. But I don't see the relevance of that in this discussion. If you talk about some other, vague energy that I think you do, then what is this energy? Can you define it properly? How does it play a role in our health?

What kind of imbalances do the alternative treatments you list up treat? Imbalances in some vague form of energy? If so, the questions raised above must be addressed.

And now you use another argument that I talked about earlier, namely the "old means valid" type of argument. It is nonsense. Old does not imply valid, it only implies old. What matters is what works, not what has been around for the longest time. These alternative methods you list up has not been proven to have any real effect on our health, it's just placebo at best. If they really did cure and treat for real, we would have known by now!

 

[christian]

Endlessness, and Citta, you both have valid points to make, and i can see your point of view.

- However i STILL think that there is a place for alternative medicine, because although Science is proven to be effective in many cases, in other cases it may not be so. That is why i say that i'm all for a balance of different treatments that one can choose. And this is down to personal choice and freedom.
-
-Don't get me wrong, i don't think a Shaman can cure anyones problems, but i do think that perhaps the Ayahuasca or san pedro in some cases can. There are no guaranteed certainties to any of these methods, however i think it all depends on the kind of illness that a person suffers, and perhaps what he thinks he needs as well, etc.

- Some people may need desperate treatment, and settle for science. And some people may not be so desperate and perhaps seek alternative medicine say for the likes of depression, where they may choose psychadelics and talk therapy.

Just my 2 pence.

 

[Global]

This forum has since its early days stood out of other entheogenic forums exactly because it tends towards the scientific side, and it will keep being in such a way. As it is written often in this forum such as in the attitude page, our discussions (where this fits) have to be based on scientific data, evidence, and reasonable backed arguments. This makes information found in this forum of a high reliability, because we check our sources and dont just say or believe things because someone said so (no matter if its a shaman, a doctor or whoever). Citta's position is not only healthy but it is extremely necessary.

Just because a culture has done something for thousands of years does not mean they do it right (in fact, they can often do wrong). Plus you talk as if all ayurveda and all shamans talk the same. I've said this once and I'll say it again, shamans have VERY contradictory models between themselves. What a Huni Kuin shaman will tell you can be completely opposite to what a Shuar shaman will tell you, for example. So who are you going to follow? Who has the right 'energetic' model? Now if you want to compare ayurveda with shamans, you're even more screwed, since what is a disease in one model wont be on another, less alone the solutions for those problems.

With science, you dont depend on these arbitrary subjective models, you can test out what works and what doesnt. Why do you think science is evolving? You say this as if its an argument against science, that scientific findings are later proven wrong, but that is EXACTLY the strenght of science, that it is falsifiable, that things can be tested and shown wrong. In this way it can evolve, develop. You can depend on the finding of sciences with your life, because it is so damn reliable (I doubt you would have gotten on the airplane to go to Asia if it was built by some ayurveda guru and his 'enlightened information', would you ? )

Lastly, you make a big mistake in equating Big Pharma with science. One is a money-oriented industry run by unscrupulous people that may (or may not) use scientific findings in the making or advertising of their products for generating more profit, while the other is a non-biased method for generating knowledge and exploring/interacting with the universe in a way that can be repeated and shared with others reliably.

I don't think the issue lies so much in terms of "science" as it does with material reductionism. It's a dogmatic approach (dogmatic opposed to factual because a dogma can't be overturned by evidence) that has established its paradigm that prevents free inquiry. Also, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, much of modern science is plagued by partisan rivalry as well as the pharmaceutical lobbies in terms of which research programs will be given government grants. While they may not be the same two things, in today's society, they are often intertwined. I'm not trying to create an attack on science by any means, as I have much respect for it, but I don't believe it should be used to dogmatically inhibit critical thinking. In any case, the source I listed does contain much hard scientific knowledge that you would find in science textbooks in addition to some of the more esoteric ideas which are often cited with numerous peer-reviewed studies and experiments.

 

[Citta]

Global:

The problems that you bring up is more a problem of politics and human error, not a problem innate to science itself, as I am sure you understand. The problems around alternative medicine and the like, however, are not the case of politics, but are innate to these perspectives and dogmatic beliefs.

 

[endlessness]

Christian, if you are aware of the scientific data on a certain disease, and decide to do a complementary treatment (and if that treatment is still open for scrutiny), if you are not hurting anybody else, and if the proponent of the alternative treatment isnt making misleading fake claims about it's effects, I dont see the problem with that. Sovereignty over our body, truth and facts in medicine, informed decisions.

I see the problem when people disregard scientific knowledge and proven cures/treatments, and go instead for some dogmatic arbitrary pseudoscientific belief, out of petty hate and unreasonable distrust for everything related to science/establishment, or out of ignorance/being mislead, which can lead to serious health issues. I specially detest it when it involves someone else who has no fault in the story and suffers the consequences, something like this:

Australian couple jailed for manslaughter of baby who died after they used homeopathic remedies for skin disorder

Nine-month-old Gloria died after her parents chose to use homeopathic remedies rather than conventional medicine to treat her severe skin disorder.

www.dailymail.co.uk

(by the way, they went to India to 'treat' their daughter with all these 'wonderful' alternative doctors, and now this poor child is dead after long months of suffering )