Anticlimactic first attempt

[Pemulis]

Hello Nexians. I recently attempted to make Ayahuasca for the first time, and would like to share my experience with you, and seek guidance.

For this endeavour, the ‘All About Aya’ pinned thread, and the visual diagram .png file on this forum, were both invaluable and gave me the impetus to attempt this journey. I am very grateful for these resources and nothing I’m about to write should imply criticism of them.

In my ongoing humble quest for some kind of meaning and direction, and spurred on by the information here, I decided to try Ayahuasca. I'd been interested in it for a while, and the often profound and transformative effect people report. Experiences vary wildly, but many people seem to report meeting Mother Ayahuasca, a sort of guide and teacher. Whilst I wanted to go in without expectations, I certainly hoped to meet her and seek her counsel. The consensus was that it would be a therapeutic journey of discovery rather than a recreational experience, which was exactly what I wanted.

I ruled out attending a retreat fairly quickly for a combination of practical, financial and ethical reasons, deciding instead that making it myself was the way to go.

Having acquired the necessary plant material a while ago, Caapi vine (yellow) and Chacruna leaf (dried), I spent all day brewing the tea. I used 100g of each, doing 3x 3hr simmers before reducing down. Whilst doing this, I thought about the intentions I was taking into the experience. I have been thinking a lot about how Western society lacks meaningful rites of passage in life, and how I have come to realise I feel their absence sorely. The most obvious such rite of passage is coming-of-age, although the transition between life stages is another; in my present case, from youth to mid-life. I mulled over feeling somewhat lost; about my changing body and declining libido; about the meaning of ageing; of seeking guidance to navigate this transition. I took all this very seriously, stating my intentions clearly and smudging the house with white sage. I wanted to consider the process ceremonial; the Ayahuasca a sacrament.

I had, frustratingly, found no consensus online of how much to make or consume. In the end, playing it safe, I reduced the brew down to 2 portions of approximately 150ml each, with the principle in mind that you can always take more, but you can never take less. I prepared the spare bedroom for my journey, put on some shamanic music and turned on some LED candles (my partner having sensibly banned the real thing) and drank the brew. It tasted absolutely disgusting. I immediately felt nauseous - not unexpected ("la purga") but I was able to manage this. I lay back, meditating on the big questions, once again stating that I come in peace, in love, to learn, as a humble seeker.

At some point I fell asleep, having been up since early that morning making the brew. I woke up and continued to lie there, waiting for something to happen. I felt essentially normal, except for having an unsettled stomach. At this point I seriously considered drinking the second portion, but my stomach was strongly advising me otherwise. It's easy to say now that I should have, but in the moment I knew that the very taste of it would immediately make me throw up. After a while longer, I went downstairs for some water and ate a bag of crisps. It had been about 3 hours since drinking the brew, and I felt basically nothing. After eating a little, I felt a bit of a buzz, a mild body high, but nothing more. I sat around for a bit longer, then gave up and went to bed and slept.

The next morning I was in a foul mood, I’m not going to pretend otherwise. Not only was I feeling disappointed and frustrated, but I was also caffeine deprived (I followed the rules on avoiding caffeine for 24 hours before and after, due to the MAOI interaction). As the day wore on, I was able to put it all into perspective. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and all that. But still. The mysteries of the universe remain hidden from me; I didn't meet Mother Ayahuasca or, for that matter, anyone else. The big questions remain unanswered. I remain at the threshold of middle age feeling like something is missing that cannot be overcome with booze, sex, exercise or whatever. Neither can they be subsumed by focussing on my hobbies and projects. Thankfully I was able to redirect my energy into my so-far more fruitful parallel exploration of freebase DMT, as I described in my introduction post.

Without wanting to sound resentful, I do wonder if there’s a survivor-bias effect with Ayahuasca. Not on this highly intelligent, thoughtful community of course, but on places like Youtube where my interest began. In that, people who have an amazing, transformative experience are the ones who go on podcasts and make YT videos; people who have underwhelming experiences like mine tend to stay quiet, perhaps. I also wonder if a lot of meaning is added post-hoc, after the fact (I should emphasise, I do not mean to denigrate the importance of integration with this comment). I don’t mean to dismiss anyone else’s experience, but on here, I do feel safe sharing my own unsatisfactory one.

A few days later, I’m feeling much more sanguine about the whole thing. It is stated here that it takes a while to find a sweet spot with Aya; that’s to be expected. I hope I am learning to reflect upon it with humility. I’m now grateful for the experience anyway, and what it has taught me, and the foundation it may yet have laid for future explorations.

I’m not in a rush to return to Aya, due to the extensive brewing times and the dietary restrictions, necessitating time off work. However, I shall in due course. When I do, I think I will reduce the liquid down much further, nearer to a shot glass than a cup of tea, to make it easier to take the second dose. Or simply reduce the same quantity of brew down to a single shot. Alternatively there are other MAOIs (Syrian Rue, etc) and other admixtures to try instead (Chaliponga and so on). I also did not acidify my brew, which some say affects potency. Of course its also possible that I am not particularly receptive to this substance, or that my body just said ‘no’ on this occasion. These things are necessarily complex with many variables.

I appreciate that everyone will have a different experiences, even with the exact same brew. But if anyone feels like giving me any pointers on what I might do differently, that would be amazing. I hope this post has been of some interest. Thanks for reading, and thanks again for all the information about Aya on this forum.

 

[blig-blug]

Hi @Pemulis, thanks you for your detailed post. I agree that there is a lot of survivor bias in what gets reported, that's why it's valuable to have reports of underwhelming experiences such as this one.

At some point I fell asleep

I've read in a book about Ayahuasca by Josep M. Ferigcla, someone quite experienced in both drinking and administering Ayahuasca, that it's not uncommon that people fall asleep, particularly the first times. He also says that many people barely feel anything the first time. That's not my experience, and it's also not what I've read here. But as you point out, it could be survivor bias. He has supervised thousands of people taking it and says it's relatively common.

Your dose of caapi sounds about right if it's decent caapi. From what I've read (I have never tried it personally), chacruna can really be hit and miss quality wise, and 50g may not have been enough if the batch wasn't good.

I got started with Syrian rue and Mimosa hostilis. They provide a somewhat different experience, and many people prefer caapi and chacruna (or chalipanga) over them. But an advantage is that they are cheap and quite reliable in potency. So they allow for experimentation and gradual learning without having to doubt your material. So you could try that: starting with a solid dose of Syrian rue and a low dose of Mimosa, and progressively try higher doses of Mimosa until you reach an experience with the intensity you seek. Then you'll be able to recognize the effects, and you can move on to caapi and mimosa later. You could even start with extracted harmalas and extracted DMT (or a mimosa tincture) to minimize nausea and be able to experiment more freely.

I'm not saying that the experiences are the same (although I think they can be as deep, it's just they differ), just that it could be a good way to learn and prepare yourself for traditional Aya.

The big questions remain unanswered

The big questions are going to remain unanswered with Ayahuasca as well. Do not fall for the impression that it will solve anything. The experiences it provides can be extremely valuable, but most of the work has to be done in a sober state, outside of the experience. It's not unusual that the experience leaves you with even more questions than answers. Part of what's valuable to me about it is it teaches you to live with less certainty, and more open to the experience of life itself. Accepting that ultimately we don't know. This is not to say that it's not a potentially very valuable and helpful experience. But I don't think it's in itself a solution to anything.

on places like Youtube where my interest began. In that, people who have an amazing, transformative experience are the ones who go on podcasts and make YT videos; people who have underwhelming experiences like mine tend to stay quiet, perhaps

Yeah. As you say, it's very likely survivorship bias. When I've had impressive experiences I've wanted to tell other people, when I've just been with stomach pain and anguish, not so much. But I often see afterwards that those experiences had value as well.

I don't trust most people that talk about Ayahuasca or other psychedelics in the media. They often present it as something that will solve your problems and change your life with a single experience. Most often, it's not that. And most often, if you look up how those "transformed" people are living years later their glowing experience, they usually are pretty much doing the same, and are pretty much the same person. The experience may show you a possible path or a new perspective, but to actually adopt it requires work. That's not often talked about in videos.

As a last thought: it may just be that you don't like Ayahuasca, or it's not for you. That's not something negative. Some people do better with some psychedelics, other people with other psychedelics, and many people aren't just meant for psychedelics at all. As someone who deeply appreciates Ayahuasca and its analogues, I encourage you to keep trying and experimenting for a while. But if after that you still don't see the point, don't think that you're somehow defective or missing something that can't be reached otherwise.

Edit: I read your introductory post, and saw that you already tried mushrooms. While they aren't the same, they can take you as far as Ayahuasca can. Look into psilohuasca as well (MAOI + mushrooms). Again, it will be a different experience, but in no way less deep. Also, I see you have already extracted DMT, so I really encourage you to try pharmahuasca. In my opinion it's the perfect learning tool, as it minimizes nausea. Nausea tends to make the experience much more difficult, and to bring up everything dark (hopefully it will be purged, but that needn't happen). Some people find value in it (I do) and some people don't, but I think it makes sense to reduce it until one is more experienced. This is just my personal perspective, of course.

 

[doubledog]

Welcome here

Lot of people feel very similar to you when they drink ayahuasca. It is not easy to "enter" world of aya by drinking it. Your case is very common.

It's not trivial to prepare brew correctly (my guess is that you boil it not long enough), but more important is the fact that lot of people seem to be very insensitive to its effect. I have seen it in each aya session I participated in. Everytime there is somebody who did not feel almost anything or effects are weak.

Btw. Falling asleep is very often the first efect of aya brew, so it really seems that something happened.

I understand your frustration but truth is that fantastic stories about Aya are indeed written by people who really had intensive experience.
I can assure you that it can be VERY transformative experience, but it is also true that lot of people have difficulties to experience it.

I would recommend you to try psilohuasca, it is similar to ayahuasca and it seems that more people are able to feel it.

 

[Jamie01]

Ayahuasca and psychedelics in general have a stupid hype surrounding them these days and people tend to want to be accepted into that community. It’s like anything else…I feel people sometimes make it sound too fantastical in order to fit in. Often when listening to podcasts these(and sometimes here)days I’m in my head thinking “ you totally made that shit up”.

The best is when people do pretty obvious things and claim the medicine told them to do it.

On top of that you probly underdosed. I mean yeah it’s amazing.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I find that it is symptomatic of the Western mindset to think that a psychedelic will fix something for them. There is so much work to be done by the journeyer before, during, and after the experience. But, as has been stated here, the way many pundits talk about it speak in a way that treats it a panacea. It seems like this is a communication issue. People want people to listen to them. But people's attention is garnered the most by the tragic and the fantastical. Most experiences don't reflect the magnitude necessary of either of those descriptors of experience. I reflect in this moment on the many many trip reports I've shared. Most aren't that fantastic or tragic, and most are barely about the experience itself.

Then there's the optics, from the outside in, of the Aya community or communities. More and more, I find myself disinterested in that medicine because of the pedestal that it has been put on the hierarchy perpetuated by that community relative to other psychedelics. No psychedelic is better than any other. To think such is just to indirectly state a personal preference. Use the right tool/toy for the right job/game.

Many people have success with rue and mimosa. Alternatively, you can eat freebase harmalas and DMT too.

One love

 

[Panpsychic]

I have been thinking a lot about how Western society lacks meaningful rites of passage in life, and how I have come to realise I feel their absence sorely. The most obvious such rite of passage is coming-of-age, although the transition between life stages is another; in my present case, from youth to mid-life. I mulled over feeling somewhat lost; about my changing body and declining libido; about the meaning of ageing; of seeking guidance to navigate this transition. I took all this very seriously, stating my intentions clearly and smudging the house with white sage. I wanted to consider the process ceremonial; the Ayahuasca a sacrament.

A shamanic retreat is unnecessary in any case though can be of benefit to some. What you are seeking is a rite of passage, and this is the experience itself not the means of attaining it although that can play a part.
Making the entire process more sacramental can be done in many ways and involves honouring the Harmala's and DMT and your intent in using them.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and all that. But still. The mysteries of the universe remain hidden from me; I didn't meet Mother Ayahuasca or, for that matter, anyone else. The big questions remain unanswered. I remain at the threshold of middle age feeling like something is missing that cannot be overcome with booze, sex, exercise or whatever. Neither can they be subsumed by focussing on my hobbies and projects.

The mysteries of the universe can yet be unfolded for you. The more you participate in the process the more it will unfold. That means both within and outside of tripping. What you have come to currently in your reflections is the important stage of realization of the limitations of worldly life in this transient existence. Its the perfect place to proceed with unfolding the many layers of the mystery, and good news and suprise - you are central to it.

Thankfully I was able to redirect my energy into my so-far more fruitful parallel exploration of freebase DMT, as I described in my introduction post.

Yes. As has been mentioned don't forget Peganum Harmala . Its as sacred and has as ancient use as Ayahuasca and is more potent in MAOI's in weight than caapi. Its also an incense and it glows in the dark when its made into a tea. All in all there are various cosmic attributes indicating its sacred role and plenty has been written on working with it in conjunction with DMT.

 

[blig-blug]

and it glows in the dark when its made into a tea

That's the harmalas. A caapi brew or just harmala salts dissolved in water or juice will also glow.

 

[Icon]

My advice is to extract the DMT and harmalas, to pure powders, so you can capsule them up. It eliminates one reason for nausea, by avoiding any taste or texture. And pure powders opens the door for dialing in the dose, by weighing and keeping notes. I advise dialing each component in separately. Take an amount of harmalas where you feel the effects on their own without nausea. Then after that's figured out, start adding in DMT. Plus you can extract a bunch of doses at once and store them for later, vs cooking each dose one at a time.

 

[Panpsychic]

That's the harmalas. A caapi brew or just harmala salts dissolved in water or juice will also glow.

Yes, the Harmala's are sacred its not that I am placing Rue somehow above Caapi, but Rue does have the added attribute of being an incense also which I think Caapi lacks and can add to the ritual aspect if one wishes.