Any other daily travellers here?

[Panpsychic]

Philosophically, direct experience seems to be the closest we can get to the truth. That doesn't mean we have arrived, or that we know anything more. We are still forever trapped within the confines of our own phenomenology (even when having direct experience of ego death and/or oneness, with or without being altered).

Yes - and this is aligned with most spiritual paths. The closest we can get in the present form that we are, is generally described as direct experience of the Ultimate which coincidences with varying degrees of experience of cessation of self.

It is generally understood that we wont really know for sure what that means - until we have gone beyond permanently.

 

[northape]

These philosophy games threads always end the same...
The only point behind it all for me is to relax after all the brain gymnastics and simply be.

 

[Panpsychic]

Furthermore, relative to the definition above, and the ostensive way knowledge is used, one believes what they believe to know and know that they believe they know that. Belief and knowing come as a package.

They can definitely intersect, but I like this broad epistemological definition to distinguish them:

Knowledge is justified or acquired through evidence or experience, while belief is a conviction held without necessarily requiring proof or experience.

Coming back to metaphysical truths such as "God", direct experience clarified for me what was merely a belief growing up. A belief that was abandoned or lost in my late teens then came back transformed into experiential knowledge with psychedelics later on.

Psychedelics promote this way of knowing in particular.
In fact, we have touched upon an important distinction of langauge, in particular some languages and their limitations such as English.

There is no direct translation of the Greek word "Gnosis" which would be the most appropriate term and this is itself telling. There are fundamentally at least two broad classes of knowledge which the Greeks distinguished but we struggle to.

Episteme : Rational, inferential, empirical, conceptual Knowledge

Gnosis : Experiential, direct, "intuitive" , "metaphysical" Gnowledge

 

[Voidmatrix]

They can definitely intersect, but I like this broad epistemological definition to distinguish them:

Knowledge is justified or acquired through evidence or experience, while belief is a conviction held without necessarily requiring proof or experience.

Coming back to metaphysical truths such as "God", direct experience clarified for me what was merely a belief growing up. A belief that was abandoned or lost in my late teens then came back transformed into experiential knowledge with psychedelics later on.

Psychedelics promote this way of knowing in particular.
In fact, we have touched upon an important distinction of langauge, in particular some languages and their limitations such as English.

There is no direct translation of the Greek word "Gnosis" which would be the most appropriate term and this is itself telling. There are fundamentally at least two broad classes of knowledge which the Greeks distinguished but we struggle to.

Episteme : Rational, inferential, empirical, conceptual Knowledge

Gnosis : Experiential, direct, "intuitive" , "metaphysical" Gnowledge

I am currently behind on an assignment, and there's a lot to say regarding what you shared above. One thing I will respond with is that there is very little inspection by most groups at the assumption of knowledge, that is the assumption we can know in the first place.

Also, yes there is a distinction between belief and knowledge. What I am highlighting is the necessary inclusion of belief with any claim to know, that is one cannot know without believing, but one can believe without knowing.

I will leave you with these however.

I talk a whole lot about many aspects of this very topic in this thread.

Epistemological Problems of Perception (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Epistemology | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy Jump to 4b

One love

 

[Jamie01]

It’s all so heady. Knowing vs believing…th medicine happens when you open up and feel. It has nothing to do with knowing or believing. It’s all feeling and when you open up and can feel in a broken world suddenly you can empathize and that’s the only space holding that matters in the end.

The best and most spiritual medicine is just laughing your face off at the absurdity of the world and the idea that your little ideas mean anything.

 

[Voidmatrix]

It’s all so heady. Knowing vs believing…th medicine happens when you open up and feel. It has nothing to do with knowing or believing. It’s all feeling and when you open up and can feel in a broken world suddenly you can empathize and that’s the only space holding that matters in the end.

The best and most spiritual medicine is just laughing your face off at the absurdity of the world and the idea that your little ideas mean anything.

But... how do you know?


One love

PS To be more receptive, it's interesting that you mention this. If we pay close attention, we are having somatic experiences, even in these heady spaces. These heady spaces can shift and inform what one feels. It's all contiguous, we just have to keep our scruples open to it.

 

[new_science]

It’s all so heady. Knowing vs believing…th medicine happens when you open up and feel. It has nothing to do with knowing or believing. It’s all feeling and when you open up and can feel in a broken world suddenly you can empathize and that’s the only space holding that matters in the end.

The best and most spiritual medicine is just laughing your face off at the absurdity of the world and the idea that your little ideas mean anything.

I'll have you know my ideas are real bi... never mind. Fully agree.

 

[Jamie01]

I think this is why so many people drink ayahuasca for years, then try wachuma and never look back. It’s just this huge feeling. It brings a lot of light in and you don’t need to know anything about it. Everyone is attracted to the optics of psychedelics at a glance but most probly stay because of the feelings that they open up and expose us to. Feelings don’t seem cerebral enough in themselves to dissipate into irrational nonsense the way thoughts do. So I figure they are more core.

 

[Voidmatrix]

So I figure they are more core.

I agree. We may get caught up in the cerebral, but it's because of how the cerebral informs how we feel is all I was saying.

For example, look at the way this thread makes you feel.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

I think this is why so many people drink ayahuasca for years, then try wachuma and never look back. It’s just this huge feeling. It brings a lot of light in and you don’t need to know anything about it. Everyone is attracted to the optics of psychedelics at a glance but most probly stay because of the feelings that they open up and expose us to. Feelings don’t seem cerebral enough in themselves to dissipate into irrational nonsense the way thoughts do. So I figure they are more core.

I would also like to add, I smoalked today and it felt great!
Who else did?

One love

 

[ommani]

I would also like to add, I smoalked today and it felt great!
Who else did?

I did not smoalk today because I’ve been scared straight after years of psychedelic use (I’ve got my compass pointed in a psychedelic direction, it’s just been a process for me)… probably a better outcome than coming to believe the earth is flat, and other questionable things, which happened to a former, notable member of this forum…

 

[Panpsychic]

I am currently behind on an assignment, and there's a lot to say regarding what you shared above. One thing I will respond with is that there is very little inspection by most groups at the assumption of knowledge, that is the assumption we can know in the first place.

And that is probably because it is seen as a basically pointless question; you can only start from where you are and what you have. Sure, you can question that very assumption, but where does that leave you are where would you go from there?

Also, yes there is a distinction between belief and knowledge. What I am highlighting is the necessary inclusion of belief with any claim to know, that is one cannot know without believing, but one can believe without knowing.

I would partly agree in that epistemic knowledge comes with belief, however the very nature of Gnosis is that it transcends belief and rational comprehension which is why the term is used to distinguish this form of "knowing". Much of the time when people refer to 'just feel' they are indeed indicating this somatic aspect of direct Gnosis.

I will leave you with these however.

I talk a whole lot about many aspects of this very topic in this thread.

Epistemological Problems of Perception (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Epistemology | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy Jump to 4b

Its definitely interesting seeing some of these discussions regards the nature of perception and the limitations of what we can, being as we are, or at least logically seem to be, always limited to our own perceptual apparatus - although some psychedelic experiences would not necessarily affirm this, it is a logical reflection and conceptualization post the experience.

It does remind me why I didn't study philosophy and am on the path I am on however.

I will leave you with Grof’s statements regards the experience of the Universal Mind which describes it well:


"Identifying with the consciousness of the Universal Mind, the individual senses that he has experientially encompassed the totality of existence. He feels that he has reached the reality underlying all realities and is confronted with the supreme and ultimate principle that represents all Being.
The illusions of matter, space, and time, as well as an infinite number of other subjective realities, have been completely transcended and finally reduced to this one mode of consciousness which is their common source and denominator. This experience is boundless, unfathomable, and ineffable; it is existence itself.

Verbal communication and the symbolic structure of our everyday language seem to be a ridiculously inadequate means to capture and convey its nature and quality.

The experience of the phenomenal world and what we call usual states of consciousness appear in this context to be only very limited, idiosyncratic, and partial aspects of the overall consciousness of the Universal Mind. This principle is totally and clearly beyond rational comprehension and yet even a short experiential exposure to it satisfies the subject’s intellectual, philosophical, and spiritual craving. All of the questions that have ever been asked seem to be answered, and there is no need to question any further."

 

[Panpsychic]

I would also like to add, I smoalked today and it felt great!
Who else did?

One love

Still waiting for my lungs to recover from a smoke 3 days ago...I do have asthma though which doesn't help even if the Enhanced leaf is primarily Mullein.

Also am waiting on some cold extracted Harmala brew in the fridge...I recently came across this method in a thread and it would really make the process much easier if it works which I am sure it will - not that its particularly difficult to boil and strain a few times anyway but the ease of just putting it in the fridge with water and giving it a shake every other day and having a potent Harmala potion at the end of the week is very appealing so we will see.

It may also make a daily Harmala brew much more of a liklihood for periods of time...

 

[northape]

Gnosis, Jñāna, Prajñā, or whatever we want to call it, goes beyond the "I" and in that is a superior form of knowledge. I'd rather use terms that were developed over thousands of years than new ones from baby-languages

Tibetan Geshes learn philosophy for decades, but I see no enlightened people there. They still need to sit their asses down and test all that knowledge in the laboratory of the mind. It's strange, but not many actually do it, and they start to tour and teach instead. On the other hand, we would have no written account of Sri Ramana's teachings if no one had asked. He was fully content to just be in silence for his whole life. Here you see a stark difference between accumulated conceptual knowledge and true wisdom (jñāna). I like all this mental gymnastics, but it gives nothing beyond coming to the abyss of not-knowing. The next step is quite somatic, as some have mentioned. You go forward to die, and in that death is eternal life. Yet, it's not your life anymore - just life

All we are is dust in the wind (all we are is dust in the wind)
Dust in the wind (everything is dust in the wind)

 

[Voidmatrix]

And that is probably because it is seen as a basically pointless question; you can only start from where you are and what you have. Sure, you can question that very assumption, but where does that leave you are where would you go from there?

I a more "accurate" orientation and a "better" targeted trajectory . The "truth" is the truth, even if it's inconvenient.

I would partly agree in that epistemic knowledge comes with belief, however the very nature of Gnosis is that it transcends belief and rational comprehension which is why the term is used to distinguish this form of "knowing". Much of the time when people refer to 'just feel' they are indeed indicating this somatic aspect of direct Gnosis.

This introduces trust, which is faith based, and thus related to belief. They share fundamental elements.

although some psychedelic experiences would not necessarily affirm this, it is a logical reflection and conceptualization post the experience.

This comes back to trust and faith. And I will say, everything that backs up most of what I have said relies on just as much. There's just a more ostensive element, even if it leads to paradox.

For example, in ego death, one feels they have lost the self and connected to everything to experience oneness, but that doesn't mean it's not happening from an augmented and attenuated phenomenology. It just feels like it is.

I will leave you with Grof’s statements regards the experience of the Universal Mind which describes it well

He's making a lot of jumps here, but I smell what you're stepping in.

On the other hand, we would have no written account of Sri Ramana's teachings if no one had asked. He was fully content to just be in silence for his whole life. Here you see a stark difference between accumulated conceptual knowledge and true wisdom (jñāna). I like all this mental gymnastics, but it gives nothing beyond coming to the abyss of not-knowing. The next step is quite somatic, as some have mentioned. You go forward to die, and in that death is eternal life. Yet, it's not your life anymore - just life

I agree, we ought to sit with it all. I think of the three prajnas as a good tool. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that accumulated knowledge can't lead to and inform wisdom, such that I create a chasm of distinction between them. In silence, he could still have been internally moving through all sorts of rabbit holes. I also can't help but reflect on these "mental domain" and how they feel in the spirit of being beyond the body.

I'd like to share some of my experience when having these conversations, because it is quite embodied, and distinct from dynamic prescriptions that separate what may be connected. Philosophy is highly somatic for me and it has been from the start. I feel it in my being. When the conversation opened into epistemology, I got excited. My hair stood up. I felt my blood pressure rise with excitement. It's like going on a river raft with choppy waters. We feel into this space to be with everything these topics bring up, learning and understanding, but applying that towards equanimity.

Still waiting for my lungs to recover from a smoke 3 days ago...I do have asthma though which doesn't help even if the Enhanced leaf is primarily Mullein.

Also am waiting on some cold extracted Harmala brew in the fridge...I recently came across this method in a thread and it would really make the process much easier if it works which I am sure it will - not that its particularly difficult to boil and strain a few times anyway but the ease of just putting it in the fridge with water and giving it a shake every other day and having a potent Harmala potion at the end of the week is very appealing so we will see.

It may also make a daily Harmala brew much more of a liklihood for periods of time...

Ya know, Ima make a cold brew too today!
Wanna link the "tek" you're using?

One love

 

[northape]

I agree, we ought to sit with it all. I think of the three prajnas as a good tool. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that accumulated knowledge can't lead to and inform wisdom, such that I create a chasm of distinction between them.

I agree, and that was my own experience. Only after establishing a proper philosophical framework did I get why silence is important. Then, it took a while to see it experimentally too.

In silence, he could still have been internally moving through all sorts of rabbit holes. I also can't help but reflect on these "mental domain" and how they feel in the spirit of being beyond the body.

Maybe. That's beyond me to comment at this point.

I'd like to share some of my experience when having these conversations, because it is quite embodied, and distinct from dynamic prescriptions that separate what may be connected. Philosophy is highly somatic for me and it has been from the start. I feel it in my being. When the conversation opened into epistemology, I got excited. My hair stood up. I felt my blood pressure rise with excitement. It's like going on a river raft with choppy waters. We feel into this space to be with everything these topics bring up, learning and understanding, but applying that towards equanimity.

Same here, actually. I try to balance my philosophizing, or I will simply overstrain myself. My line of thought reflects how my body and mind feel nowadays too.
Just listen to that damn song and you will get it