Anyone growing Yopo?

[Lago Chiller]

I'm in Z6 and recently brought my two yopo indoors for winter. They are beautiful indoors.
They are about 5' each and in 3 gal pots.


The first week in they started losing lower leaves.

And growing tips are dead.

Anybody know what is happening to them?

 

[galulyah]

lago,
is that artificial light? i
if so, i bet some time in the sun would perk it right up.
the other thing that comes to mind is maybe a good compost tea for micronutrients? Or maybe just a top dressing of compost.

good luck,
D

 

[Lago Chiller]

lago,
is that artificial light? i
if so, i bet some time in the sun would perk it right up.
the other thing that comes to mind is maybe a good compost tea for micronutrients? Or maybe just a top dressing of compost.

good luck,
D

Thanks for the reply! I snapped those pics at night.
They have an all natural fert with Mycorrhizal fungi and other biological cultures and they got a weak soluble fert every two weeks this summer. I've only watered once in the 2 weeks they been indoors.
Compost is out of the question, that is for outdoor use only. Last years bug infestation eliminated that option.
But you are right, the sudden loss of light was the biggest change they've underwent, even though they are in the sunniest room of the house.
I think I'll supplement the window light with some lighting fixtures and see if they respond.
Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Tabaluga]

Looks to me like it is not the growing tip, but the last petiole/leaf that has died. ie the meristem seems perfectly fine.

True yopo [A.pererina] is quite cold sensitive. In fact the best way to tell if you have colubrina or peregrina is to leave them out in cold, but non-frost temperatures. Colubrina will go dormant while peregrina will die. I am mentioning this because actual true yopo seed is incredibly rare and most seed sold as yopo is in fact colubrina seed. Even the brasilian dept of agriculture can't tell the difference and will certify colubrina seeds as peregrina.

Both peregrina and colubrina will shed their leaves at the base of the petiole if they experience water stress such as change in humidity or insolation. The dead 'tip' is simply a baby leaf that was disconnected from the stem in such a protective effort. Seeing as your post is 2 months old it has probably been replaced by now

 

[Lago Chiller]

Thanks for the reply, strange too, that I haven't visited this blog for weeks and here you are with a very helpful post the very next time I sign in.

This is what the seed vendor writes:


yopo (Anadenanthera sp) seeds
Hardiness: Protect from frost!
Perennial tropical to subtropical tree to 50 feet. Native to the Andes. Able to withstand short exposures down to about 25 degrees F. Does tend to come back from the root after the tops freeze back. Highly decorative house plant. The fern-like leaves open during the day and close at night. The ground seeds are an ingredient in native psychoactive snuff, rich in bufotenine. These seeds are potentially toxic if taken internally. Plant prefers warmth, partial shade, and rich, fast-draining soil. Seed has short viability and is best planted as soon as possible after receipt. Use straight sand or mixture of peat or coco fiber and pumice. Place seeds on flat surface, cover thinly, and press in. Keep barely moist and very warm (72-90 degrees F). Germination is rapid--often within 3 days.

Since this vendor claims the plant can grow back from freezes I would suspect the trees to be Anadenanthera colubrina. Erowid has pics of the seed of both plants, identical to each other and to the seed I bought.
No pics of A. colubrina trees but a few of A. perenina. Again very similar to my trees.

The leaf drop has slowed and no new growth has occured. The growing tip has just hardened.
They seem to be acclimating to the lower light levels.

 

[Tabaluga]

peregrina seed is very rare and usually easily traced back to certain collectors and vendors. general online vendors almost certainly sell colubrina as peregrina - often unknowingly because the producers mislabel them and have brasil ag dept certification. The price difference between a kilo of colubrina vs peregrina is about 5 fold!!

Interesting to see the vendor offer the seed as Anadenanthera sp. He obviously knows he is on shakey ground. But to call them yopo is just as deceptive.

 

[Zaka]

Irie,
I have several trees 4yrs old and should be mature enough to flower soon.
They are suppose to be peregina.
I've yet to confirm they are! The flowers should help!
I've read that the trunks are distinctively different, but not really nailed down how???(any insights T?)
The trees I have, has large nobbley spikes, I wouldn't call them thorns though!
Sadly (thankfully), I cannot try the cold test method!

Respect,
Z

 

[Tabaluga]

I think I have a fair idea of telling the bark apart on older trees, so send me some pics. Also, there is something on SAB about identifying via the nectaries. That's probably far more reliable than the visual bark ID. Can't remember the details, but it is a major thread.

 

[Zaka]

Irie,
Can't seem to find much about peregina....a lot of aussie acaias
So is one suppose to have and the other, not?
I'll take a look in the morning & post photos!
Respect,
Z

 

[Tabaluga]

I think you might have spelled it wrong cos there is a shitload of stuff on peregrina at SAB. Took me a while, but I found the relevant thread. And i remembered it wrong. It was about the involucres, not the nectaries. peregrina has them while colubrina doesn't. That should make ID about as easy as it gets.

see from this post onwards:

"Peregrina" #3 ....

bummer,........ so close and yet so far away...... i am so close to Venezuela ....... approx 80 kilometers from its shore, but getting there is still too expensive to just go there and have a look..... heh,... also won a cruise vacation, but not thinking of going on it (still not sure what to do)...

www.shaman-australis.com

 

[Zaka]

Irie,
Thanks for the link, T.
It was 4am, so spelling & search was a little off!
Here's some photo.
You can see on this plant, I guess are involucres? I believe this is a feature of Piptadenia???
I've seen this same feature on my M.Verrucosa trees....
Respect,
Z

 

[Tabaluga]

wow, they are huge nasties! My colubrina is much denser and each bump is smaller.
I reckon the best ID is by the involucres though rather than the trunk bumps.
Involucres are the littles pointy stipule like attachments just below the opened flower. if you have a look in the sab thread you will see planthelper actually put circles around the involucres to identify them easily.
Could you post a close up of your flowers? side view so the whole flower stalk is visible.

 

[Zaka]

Irie,
Well I only just discovered the buds???
The tree they are on is a miniature, maybe 3ft tall....
I'll keep a closer eye on them and will post when they flower....
Respect,
Z

 

[Tabaluga]

lol, thats explain the disproportionate bumps.

yes, keep an eye on the buds and take pics when they are just about to open. it would be great to know where a confirmed yopo is

 

[Lago Chiller]

Hi Zaka
Thanks for the pics.
The second and third from last show dark teardrop shaped saucers along the leaf stems with the buds between them and the main stem. These look exactly like the ones on my plants.
And you say yours is only 3 ft tall? :shock: Those pics make 'em look 30 ft!
My little guys (planted Feb 2011)are 4 and 5 ft and have skinny little stems with no warts at all.
As I recall now they both grew horizontal for the first 3 months till I staked them vertical.

Thanks too, tab for asking these questions.
My next is what difference is there between A. colubrina and A. peregrina? Is it their chemistry?

 

[Tabaluga]

My next is what difference is there between A. colubrina and A. peregrina? Is it their chemistry?

Colubrina contains bufotenine, while peregrina contains 5MeODMT and DMT. That's what makes peregrina so much more desirable and expensive - hence the reason why so many suppliers mislabel.

 

[jamie]

^thats completely incorrect. Yopo and Vilca both contain bufotenine. They roast the seeds durring the prep also(perigrina especially)..DMT and 5meoDMT will not make it through that process. Colubrina contains higher alk content than perigrina also. It is obvious just by the fact that the seeds are roasted durring the preperation that it is bufotenine in perigrina that is the main active alkaloid. Any 5meoDMT or DMT is neglegable and probly not enough to do much of anything, and even then it will be vaped away durring the preperation of the seed snuff.

The piaroa Curranderos are known for making the strongest yopo in the amazon and the preperation has been well documented..the seeds are roasted over a fire. This myth about yopo being DMT or 5meoDMT needs to go away. If anyone really wants to challenge this than explain why the tribes known the most for their strong yopo roast the over a fire durring the preperation of the snuff.

I have worked with colubrina and bufotenine from the seeds extensivly and researched everything I can on the anadenanthera snuffs. Perigrina even when smoked as a raw seed only gave the effects of bufotenine salts. Bufotenine is unmistakeable. Anything I have read about DMT or 5meoDMT being present is minor ammounts compared to the bufotenine which is active at a couple mg's only.

Really colubrina has more of the active alkaloids that the amazonian peoples use and this might be one reason why it's more common among vendors..noone is really going to go after yopo for DMT or 5meoDMT, unless maybe they can get the bark. I think the bark has some ammount of 5meoDMT..but perigrina bark is not "yopo".

Bufotenine as a freebase on is fully visionary. It can account for all the effects I have seen on video of amazonians snuffing yopo.

You should be able to tell the 2 apart from the shape of the seeds. They differ slightly.

 

[Tabaluga]

Hi Jamie,

good to see someone else taking this seriously, but sadly you are mistaken. 5MeODMT was found in peregrina seeds by many different research teams, including schultes [multiple locations and analyses] in all parts of the plant but at high concentrations of about 1% in the seeds, Holmstedt & Lindgren, Spegazzini, Agurell, myself and several friends. Snuff obtained from the piaroa shaman by ethnobotanist Robin Rodd while he was living with them writing his thesis was also analysed by several people [including myself] and was found to contain as the main active 5MeODMT.

No 5MeODMT has ever been found in any properly identified colubrina samples.

There is a lot of poor data from the last decade because so much 'yopo' seed that has been analysed is actually not yopo at all and hence will only ever show bufotenine.

Your assumption that the piaroa shaman yopo snuff can't contain any 5MeODMT because of the roasting process indicates you lack understanding of the actual process. The roasting is done in two parts. the first part is to pop the seed coat off the seed. This is done at high temperatures, but also at very high speed which barely heats the main mass of the seed and hence is of no consequence to the alkaloids.
The second part is when they make the dough and then roast the patties to dry them. Again the steam escaping would keep the main part of the patty pretty close to the boiling point of water, which is quite safe for 5MeODMT. This roasting is only done to remove moisture, so the key is not to overdo it. There is minimal damage to the alkaloids.
If you've ever had piaroa yopo then you'd know that it is very different to bufotenine.


I am trying to follow your logic though. Are you saying that 5MeODMT is less stable than bufotenine and hence one can handle the roasting while the other can't? If so, is there any evidence that 5MeODMT is less stable? I could imagine that ether bridge being a little bit sensitive, but I'd think that other oxidative processes would get the rest of the molecule before that became a problem.

 

[Tabaluga]

I see from your edits that you have plenty of experience with bufotenine and I am not disputing that you have found bufotenine in various seeds. However, I had access to synthetic 5MeODMT, vilca and cebil colubrina seeds, as well as properly identified peregrina seeds and piaroa yopo.

Let me start by saying that I have been chasing real peregrina seeds since 1998 without success - they always turn out to be colubrina. Given my connections as a vendor allow me to get to most sources, my first assumption when anyoen claims they have worked with peregrina is that they were fooled. No one has been able to establish their peregrina seed as being the real thing although many would like to think so.

No qualified botanists working with this genus has ever described there being a difference in the seed between the species. In fact, all such difference so far were tracked back to growing conditions.

Unless you can prove that you had actual peregrina seed I think your research is on shakey ground. There is plenty of published evidence that your assumption about the alkaloid content is wrong. I think it is likely that you maybe never had real peregrina seeds.

 

[Zaka]

Hi Zaka
Thanks for the pics.
The second and third from last show dark teardrop shaped saucers along the leaf stems with the buds between them and the main stem. These look exactly like the ones on my plants.
And you say yours is only 3 ft tall? :shock: Those pics make 'em look 30 ft!
My little guys (planted Feb 2011)are 4 and 5 ft and have skinny little stems with no warts at all.
As I recall now they both grew horizontal for the first 3 months till I staked them vertical.

Thanks too, tab for asking these questions.
My next is what difference is there between A. colubrina and A. peregrina? Is it their chemistry?

Irie Lago,
I have 5 trees in total.
One is 3ft, the others are all knocking on 30+...
These teardrop saucers are what I thought T was referring too as nectaries...
As I said found them on the M.V.'s....as well as on some local Piptadenia family trees.....
The tallest one, 1st pic, was really lanky for the first couple of years....Staking them is good!!!
Topping them at desired height will get them to canopy out...
I can see flower buds on the other trees but it's hard to get a good shot!!!
Respect,
Z