Are there advantages of being guided by a Curandero over doing DMT alone?

[Ajqij]

This right and wrong is a state of the world and something we all ought to be responsible for. It's easy to hide behind calm objectivity and not take a risk by suggesting unpopular notions. It's happened all down through history and not gonna change any time soon in my estimation. What is important, however, is how we emerge from our arrogance and whether or not we open ourselves to things we do not understand rather than automatically negate them. It's challenging and it will take all of us stepping forth and engaging with conviction, which at times will be arrogant and other times be wise. Which is which? Who cares, it's a bigger issue than assigning blame, it's about being responsible as a race and doing all we can to live in accord with Nature, each other, and the vast life existing within the universe.

 

[northape]

This right and wrong is a state of the world and something we all ought to be responsible for. It's easy to hide behind calm objectivity and not take a risk by suggesting unpopular notions. It's happened all down through history and not gonna change any time soon in my estimation. What is important, however, is how we emerge from our arrogance and whether or not we open ourselves to things we do not understand rather than automatically negate them. It's challenging and it will take all of us stepping forth and engaging with conviction, which at times will be arrogant and other times be wise. Which is which? Who cares, it's a bigger issue than assigning blame, it's about being responsible as a race and doing all we can to live in accord with Nature, each other, and the vast life existing within the universe.

I hear you. No need to go far and speak about others, let's start with ourselves.
You and me, let's work on what we actually can change — ourselves.
Wasn't your motto “Exit your mind, enter your heart”?
Heart is love, and love is acceptance of everything and everyone.
Do you try to change the one you love? Would it be called love then?

 

[blig-blug]

It's easy to hide behind calm objectivity and not take a risk by suggesting unpopular notions

I don't think the problem here is any notions being rejected, really. As you can see, there are other posters with not widely shared views on the nature of reality, spirit, etc. As an example, I'm interested in reading about what you have learned from the curanderos, but I'm most definitely not interested in reading for the nth time that you have been there for 20 years, ambiguous complaints about the user flairs automatically assigned by the forum, complaints about senior members, etc. It would be better for everyone if you talked about and discussed the experiences themselves, and resorted less to "meta" commentary about the nature of the conversation, be it positive or negative. If not, I don't think you will be able to communicate anything.

You have said before that communication depends on both the emitter and the receiver, and it's true. But think about it: it's you who wants to talk about your experiences and lessons learned, so it's you who should be the most interested in communicating in a way fit for the circumstances. If once and again your efforts at communicating are being unsuccessful, you should make an effort to assess what you can do to improve them. If I go up to a group of people and start talking to them and it turns out that my communication style doesn't work well with them, I would do my best to change it and adapt it to the circumstances, regardless of whether I consider my style "better" or "worse" in an abstract sense. And if I don't want to do that or think they don't want to listen, I would just leave and not attempt to blame them. It doesn't matter if the style is "good" or not: if it doesn't work in a given setting, is bad (ineffective, unfit for purpose) and should be changed or communication abandoned.

I recommend that you stop believing that the issue here is that your ideas or views are being rejected, because it's very much not the case. But if you care about the people that are interested in what you have to say, say it in an effective way and abandon all meta-commentary (positive or negative) unless strictly necessary.

This is just my recommendation, obviously do as you please, but the reality of the situation won't necessarily mold itself to be how you would want it to be.

 

[Ajqij]

I hear you. No need to go far and speak about others, let's start with ourselves.
You and me, let's work on what we actually can change — ourselves.
Wasn't your motto “Exit your mind, enter your heart”?
Heart is love, and love is acceptance of everything and everyone.
Do you try to change the one you love? Would it be called love then?

Thank you @northape . . . I'm with you and I want to also offer that "love" does not always mean "acceptance of certain behaviors or attitudes." As a boy my Mom would farm me out to my Grandmother and her "love" was at times not peaceful and accepting, it was quite abrupt . . . but there was also a sense that she cared about me and she never degraded me or invalidated me. Most of her "tough love" was intended to have me grow into a man who would be both strong and humble. Whether I attained it or not, I do not know. But what I do know is even during all this turbulance in these threads, I respect every single member who has participated. I may not appreciate some of the styles or implications but that is less important to me than keeping people in my heart.

 

[Varallo]

Have you looked closely at the sequences of the conversations? And "rational" is a different animal than is "respectful and mature." I find this portal to be heavy on the rational mind and light on the openness of the heart. Maybe "irrational" might be healthier than you think, is that a possibility? I'll stay with it here if that's alright with you unless you want to remove me because I'm in your estimation to irrational, disrespectful and immature. Maybe what I bring is a valid part of what a Nexus actually is @Nydex?

Let’s name what’s happening here, and has been happening in most of your posts.

You’re reframing critique as a lack of “heart” to make rational discussion seem cold or lesser. That’s manipulation.
You’re redirecting attention away from your own claims and onto others’ supposed emotional shortcomings. That’s reframing to avoid accountability.
And you’re implying that being challenged is the same as being silenced or excluded. That’s gaslighting.

This kind of behavior is deeply concerning, not just because it disrupts dialogue, but because it reflects a pattern often tied to very serious issues. Your inability to tolerate disagreement, the constant shifting of narratives, the constant self-aggrandizement are all you seem capable off. And then you seem to think you are in the position of helping others to make their way to your curanderos.
This makes me really sad and worried about anyone who encounters you, especially vulnerable people looking for insight healing, who end up going on one of your “tours”.

Now on topic, are there any advantages to being guided by an curandero?

Well sometimes that is very helpful, and if the curandero is genuinely good and motivated to help another human to get something out of the experience, I think some people will benefit from the “authentic” approach.
But as with all these things that bring western wealth to poverty stricken countries bad actors are not far away. Mistreatment and abuse have become widespread and unscrupulous actors who lack self awareness, have illusions of grandeur and are self proclaimed experts, are actively seeking power and influence over others who are vulnerable.

And that’s the real tragedy. What could have been a path toward an beautiful experience is now a path full of people who have only one goal and that is to fuel spiritual tourism at any costs, for money or power.

 

[Ajqij]

I don't think the problem here is any notions being rejected, really. As you can see, there are other posters with not widely shared views on the nature of reality, spirit, etc. As an example, I'm interested in reading about what you have learned from the curanderos, but I'm most definitely not interested in reading for the nth time that you have been there for 20 years, ambiguous complaints about the user flairs automatically assigned by the forum, complaints about senior members, etc. It would be better for everyone if you talked about and discussed the experiences themselves, and resorted less to "meta" commentary about the nature of the conversation, be it positive or negative. If not, I don't think you will be able to communicate anything.

You have said before that communication depends on both the emitter and the receiver, and it's true. But think about it: it's you who wants to talk about your experiences and lessons learned, so it's you who should be the most interested in communicating in a way fit for the circumstances. If once and again your efforts at communicating are being unsuccessful, you should make an effort to assess what you can do to improve them. If I go up to a group of people and start talking to them and it turns out that my communication style doesn't work well with them, I would do my best to change it and adapt it to the circumstances, regardless of whether I consider my style "better" or "worse" in an abstract sense. And if I don't want to do that or think they don't want to listen, I would just leave and not attempt to blame them. It doesn't matter if the style is "good" or not: if it doesn't work in a given setting, is bad (ineffective, unfit for purpose) and should be changed or communication abandoned.

I recommend that you stop believing that the issue here is that your ideas or views are being rejected, because it's very much not the case. But if you care about the people that are interested in what you have to say, say it in an effective way and abandon all meta-commentary (positive or negative) unless strictly necessary.

This is just my recommendation, obviously do as you please, but the reality of the situation won't necessarily mold itself to be how you would want it to be.

Thanks for reaching out and expressing your views. I respect them and will certainly reflect on the points you made. To be honest, I will say to you that because what I bring here is not what is currently deemed to be scientifically validated, it doesn't much matter how I approach the topic. I've been doing my best to share what is meaningful to me about my "20 years" not because I want to promote my diplomas, but because spending that amount of time and putting that degree of heart and soul into getting to know the people in Central and South America has merit of its own . . . and it’s an organic and communal approach I believe is missing in this community. Be it right, wrong, or whatever, I will share what I've been gifted with, with the same amount of assumed credulity as anyone with a scientific orientation does. I'll keep posting and instead of getting drawn into a mind trap with those who make more statements than ask questions I will simply thank them for sharing and move on. Could have done it earlier, but I wanted to kind of flush out the “pheasant in the field” as it were. Now that I understand the bird I'll simply wish it well on its way because it has already chosen its flight path along with its flock - “birds of a feather tend to trip together,” or in the case of this site, alone. Blessings.

 

[Voidmatrix]

To be honest, I will say to you that because what I bring here is not what is currently deemed to be scientifically validated, it doesn't much matter how I approach the topic.

No one said everything here needs to be scientific bro... now you're making things up.

One love

 

[northape]

Thank you @northape . . . I'm with you and I want to also offer that "love" does not always mean "acceptance of certain behaviors or attitudes." As a boy my Mom would farm me out to my Grandmother and her "love" was at times not peaceful and accepting, it was quite abrupt . . . but there was also a sense that she cared about me and she never degraded me or invalidated me. Most of her "tough love" was intended to have me grow into a man who would be both strong and humble. Whether I attained it or not, I do not know. But what I do know is even during all this turbulance in these threads, I respect every single member who has participated. I may not appreciate some of the styles or implications but that is less important to me than keeping people in my heart.

It feels like you are trying to “teach” something all the time.
Most people here are past teacher stage and would scrutinize any candidate to a bone.
That's why you get vetted by "white blood cells” of Nexus, imo.

 

[The Traveler]

With @Ajqij being unable to pickup the various hints and integrating them, this thread is slowly starting to irritate our community beyond good reason.

Due to this, @Ajqij has been given a timeout till next month, I hope this time will be used for some serious self-reflection.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Panpsychic]

Good points @Nydex, not only are there ill-intended charlatans in Peru, but they are flourishing throughout South and Central America. No one will find authentic curanderos hanging out in town squares, beach resorts, and hotels, or even ancient ruins frequented by tourists. Gaining access is all about relationship, not about how many pesos one has earmarked for a “sacred ceremony.” Think of the process as an “extraction.” To produce a “pure” outcome there are vital separation and filtration steps involved that cannot be omitted. The same goes for traveling south to seek out a medicinal vision quest.

Relationship is the key and that term needs to be unpacked for those who have it in them to seek out the kind of holy person you and I are referring to. In my experience Nydex, (and anyone reading this please refrain from tossing an “ember” in this thread that implies I’m boasting my credentials) what is needed is to either rely upon someone who is credible and has well-established relationships with Curanderos or invest time in getting to know the local people in and around smaller villages (on the “edge of town” as it were) and gain their trust. It is through establishing trust and demonstrating humility and respect that will deliver the seeker to their destination. (And BTW the internet, “trip advisor,” or social media recommendations are unlikely to be credible sources.) So this disadvantage you so wisely pointed out is extremely important for anyone planning a sacred journey south.

As for the advantages, I wish to offer a small unpacking of what “a capable, respectful, and properly experienced curandero” might mean. “Capable,” means having the Tek nailed which includes preparing the medicine, administering it, (proper dose, set, and setting), and facilitating the ceremony. “Respectful” means far more than maintaining physical and emotional boundaries, it also has to do with the degree to which a Curandero lives respect and reverence in their daily life – which includes honoring their ancestors, the plants they call upon, all life forms here on Earth and other planets, and a sacredness for the cosmos as a whole. “Properly Experienced,” means the degree to which the shaman, him-or-herself has established a long-standing relationship with the plant energies, entities, and emissaries. (By “long-standing” I don’t just mean a few years, I mean a relationship existing both within and outside of (in)finite time.)

I deeply appreciate exchanging knowledge and experience with you in a respectful dialogue. Thank you. One more thing I wish to offer is that “going solo” is fine, as I’ve taken that path for years. (I very seldom ever trip with others as I find it to be a distraction from being “in the pull” of the medicine.) Why I am inclined to encourage psychonauts to dial in with the ways of the elders is not to impose archaic rules of engagement, but to point them in the direction of opening to the full opportunity of plant medicine – a kind of “synthesis" encoded into the interconnected fabric between the micro and the macro that encourages partnering and collaboration between the medicinal miracle of Nature, (plants) and the magnificent mems of Biology, (humans). In Lak’ech

I can share with you what I've personally experienced and what others I've shared curandero ceremonies with reported. A "step-by-step" recount isn't possible, however, as much of what occurs, as you well know is a "flow" rather than an operations manual. I tried to nail down specific steps in my "Toltec-Tek," but it was really hard to do because of the abstract nature of the journey. So keeping in perspective that you are open to guidance while sober and still trip alone, I'll nudge my sharing in the direction of sober distinctions whist keeping in mind and heart to convey some of the extraordinary joint heart-opening traveling into plant medicine. (BTW my preferred way to trip is also alone.)

Ok, so to even get in the "door" with a revered curandero or elder, one needs to approach the engagement with utmost respect and humility, not for the healer only but for the entire sensorium and histrionic legacy of sacred plants and their intent here on Earth. Holding the "I drink alone" energy will get one sent away faster than they can blurt out "medicina por favor." If one does gain the trust of a Curandero the following is bound to happen, but not always . . . (I will recount the “steps” from my vantage point so you can kind of experience it through my eyes and heart)

1. Once an arrangement has been made to engage in a plant ceremony, (which can be individual or with a small group of others) the next part of the “guidance” is clearing my inner space (mind and heart) and identifying unresolved issues as "potential material for guidance." (While there’s no expectation that I will encounter or need to do any emotional work, there is always emotional work to do in ceremony.)

2. “Sitting with a Curandero” before imbibing plant medicine is perhaps more intense than a full-on DMT rush. Knee to knee in crossed leg position an “eyes to eyes” engagement ensues. It’s not a “stare-down” it’s a “soul-scan.” By this, all (and I mean all) the deeds ever done or encountered in my life become immediately transparent to both the Curandero and to me. Imagine a movie film strip of your entire life flying by before your eyes that takes no more than about a minute from start to finish. It will be the longest minute of your life.

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3. While highly vulnerable, being “seen” so deeply relieves the anxiety that most well-adjusted human beings have about exposing things that they themselves have judged as negative ever since having committed them, (like as you read that line, such instances may instantly arise within you). So the next step is the physically purify my body with a “smudge blessing.” (While I have never felt any change in my level of purity, perhaps I smelled better during the ceremony.)

4. Next comes the brew, a ritual that has meaning for the Curanmdero, and my sense is that as they pour or load the medicine, they’re “sizing me up” physically, psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually for administering a proper dose. Singing then begins and some occasional ritual fanning of my head, face, and chest happens.

5. When the medicine comes on and is in full force the “guidance” begins. All the guidance is non-verbal but extremely powerful. A touch of the hand here, a song there, a gentle blowing of smoke here or there, all highly attuned “navigational adjustments” to optimize breaking through. Depending on many factors this experience magnifies the opportunity to make contact with “ancestors,” “entities,” and “spirit guides” that the Curandero has long-standing associations with, (and even some they don’t).

6. In a closed-eye state I dive deep and alone in a barrage of geometric greeting symbols, but somehow at the same time feeling embraced by an” infinite “maternal loving energy. (This is hard to explain unless one has experienced it directly). It’s not at all an “indoctrination” but rather a profoundly sacred “revelation.”) Singing ensues and I find myself joining in and somehow knowing what the words mean . . . and the melody combined with the words produces a kind of “manifesting interface” I can use to intentionally call forward energies and alleys who can offer my guidance, encouragement, fascination, companionship, belonging, and absolute unconditional fulfillment.

7. Throughout the entire journey from the moment it comes on to when I regain my familiar grasp on “reality” the eyes of the Curandero I peered into before imbibing the plant medicine were with me. Eyes that see from the vastness of the cosmos and offer me a short mortal glimpse of my (in)finite nature.

The rest is quite unremarkable . . . other than a high degree of retention regarding the key guidance and learnings that took place while tripping, which I always humbly tuck into my heart as I express gratitude to my Curandero and make my way to the next village.
In Lak'ech my friend

Thanks for these very insightful posts and your reverence for the shamanic tradition comes across.

Have always been generally a solo tripper, and when smoking DMT I do so with the Peganum Harmala tea which I consider to be of a parrallel ancient tradition.

Its always good to remember we are partaking of practices with a long lineage and history and the wisdom from that can be of great benefit in the process of self development and self transcendence.

 

[IceKoldpp]

I am a DIY guy all day long. I fix my own car, home and everything else, including myself. I save tons of money and take away a lot of pride from this kind of independence. Even though I have had not had direct contact with shamans, curanderos and the like, I have learned from observation. I have read tons and watched many videos. I have incorporated many of my observations directly into my own psychedelics practice. I have made some mistakes, faltered and clumsily figured out what works for me and what does not. Some of me enjoys learning the hard way or at least that is what I am used to. Trial and error and find a way to make it work. I am the patient, the healer and the medicine.

I have a lot of respect for healers of any kind in this world. I think that these kind of healers and teachers present themselves when and if they need to enter into your life. As the saying goes, 'When the student is ready, the master appears.'. Which is something you have to look for. My daughter has taught me more than any human being I have ever met and she started those lessons on me from the moment she came into this world. Teachers come in all forms, a baby or child, yourself, family or friends or a shaman.

At some point in my life I would like to seek out the wisdom of a shaman or curandero, as for now I am doing just fine solo. I primarily always tripped alone and honestly prefer it that way. I would not enjoy a group setting as I have some issues with social situations at times, I am working on that.

I think many psychonauts I have met are shamans in their own right. This is not to discount a shaman's abilities. It's apples and oranges there. I just think that it's worth pointing out that some western psychonauts bring a great amount of healing wisdom, guidance and friendship that is just as powerful of medicine. I once heard that enable to be called a shaman, one would need to heal someone first. The title is earned and not just given on a weekend website course or self-appointed. If you can heal someone and offer guidance and do it well, you deserve the title. The title bestowed onto the healer from the healed.

Perhaps someday I will venture to see a shaman or curandero. If that is in my cards in this life, cool. If not, solo is just fine with me.

i think we are probably two cut from very similar cloth. and i couldn't have expressed my feelings on this any better myself. thank you for saving me the hour it would likely take me to form my own comment in this thread. i'll buy u a beer or a rip of the the gvg should we ever meet. cheers