Autumn Olive (E. umbellata) Workspace

[Felnik]

It's pure conjecture in my part . I do know that my crude extraction
Yielded some very strong material. My hunch is that it would take
A large quantity of bark to get a reasonable amount of purified extraction.
There's potential here .

 

[YTXian]

:? That is a really good question... Harmane, Dihydroharmane, Tetrahydroharmane, N-Methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro--carboline, Tetrahydroharmol and N-Methyltetrahydroharmol; these are the -Carboline Alkaloids in Bark of Plants from the Family Elaeagnaceae L. Growing in Russia.
I guess I figure that all of these compounds have MAOI capability.
I make no pretense of really knowing anything about this science however.
My reasoning is that all of them combined in different perportions make this extract what it is and dark and muddy/dirty is the way it looks...that to clean it up is to take away from it. I felt no nausea but, I have yet to ingest a larger amount (ie. an oral dose).
Now that I consider it, I suppose that the extraction techniques I use are primary and not at all selective. So whatever I do extract is going to be a mix of all the Alkaloids in the bark and cleaning it up isn't going to change that...I think.:?

I guess my reasoning is based on something instinctual and not known fact.

Therefore I shall have to purify this extract further but save some in this unrefined state and bioessay both.

 

[Felnik]

Question , I have a big pot of autumn olive bark with water. I didn't have any vinegar so i thought to use some pickling lime.
It changed the tea to a more milky consistency . can i still do a salt extraction or will the lime mess that up ?
or should i continue to an A/B at this point.

 

[YTXian]

I don't think a salt extraction is going to crystalize anything but salt with maybe a little tint from the tea if your solution is basic.

A/B is probably the better method to use in this case.

I'm suprised that you used just water without any acid for the initial extraction.

Are there any percipitates settling in the bottom of your pot that you can filter out?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Personally, I'd try continuing as an a/b at this point (although I have very little to rest that on...I just feel it's less likely to be a PITA). Also, my current extraction was PC'd without any vinegar and the third PCing yielded a "tea" that was very light in color leading me to assume that all the actives are out by the third PC, so there are alternate ways to go about it without acid, imo. As benz says, it's all about lysing the cells

 

[YTXian]

That's good news actualy!
I will be starting over with fresh bark and doing another extraction, this time I'll try not salting with acid as well...See I tried to do a clean up on first extraction and I used muratic acid after a salt percipitation.
My hopes were that the muratic+salt (with heat) would yeild THHarmane Hcl and Harmane Hcl.
Well...

I had problems getting the PH back up and ended up using a considerable amount of (anhydrous)sodium carbonate. By the time I got back to base my solution was so dense that the percipitates where floating on top!:shock:

I did yeild some amazing large crystals with the most interesting cleavage I've seen since...(insert name of busty female to complete obvious, stupid pun:lol: )...But I don't think they have anything to do with harmane other than their shape possibly being influenced by the indole ring or carbon ring...whatever.

It only proves that I barley even know what I'm doing (not even that:? ).

I'd post some pictures but I don't want to create misunderstandings. These are NOT harman.
They look exciting:roll: !

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I'd post some pictures but I wouldn't want to create misunderstandings and if seen these would for sure.

What do you mean? Let's see em! :d

 

[Felnik]

I don't think the autumn/ Russian olive should be
Forgotten , I m surprised more people aren't
Trying it . It's definetly worth persueing, a simple salt
Extraction is all that's needed . There's huge potential here .

 

[YTXian]

I will be posting some results again soon.

I tried to create Harman HCL last time and it went...well, mysteriously wrong:shock: .

I have gathered alot more bark off of both the autum and the russian olive trees around here and will be doing a salt percipitation as well as an STB and an A/B soon.

Can someone describe the bark they have used? Was it the older dark brown to black, fiberous bark off of the trunks of bigger trees or have any of you had success with the green to silver, softer, almost fuzzy or spongy bark off of the smaller new growth and younger trees? Any defatting involved?

YT is eating humble pie lately for his last few posts that he has had to re-evaluate his opinion and change it because of new experience. Such as the salt percipitation comment made earlier or another one about seperatory funnels and yet another opinion about HDP plastic vs. glass made in a different thread. Just plain wrong when I thought I was right from experience before:? Well, live and learn, I am and I do.

Could somebody PM me and explain how to post pictures to this forum? I'm a total newbie as far as chat rooms and social forums and just don't know how to do things on them or even where to go to find out.:?

 

[Felnik]

You don't have to get fancy with this stuff. I went with older
Dead bark from fallen branches around the oldest trees I could find .
A simple vinegar boil then salt added to resulting tea
Refrigerated then filtered , dried . Then scraped from filter.
A grey brown salty powder is the result .

It's active , I,ve said it before the synergy with spice is
Nothing less than phenomenal !

People are missing out on this , I,m telling you .

 

[aliendreamtime]

I'm not clear as to why you guys think the impure extract is more desirable. We know that the total alk% in this plant is incredibly low...so even if you have an impure extract, it doesn't mean more alks/greater effectiveness imo, just more other stuff from the plant. Can you explain why you feel impure to be superior? I haven't tried any of my impure extract, so I can't really comment.

Synergy: the effects of multiple similar drugs are stronger than any one single drug of the same amount.

 

[Felnik]

thank you,

latest news on this front are experiments with making bark tincture.

large quantity of bark boiled with vinegar resulting tea put into jars

tea was evaporated in pyrex pan with fan drying

a dry laquer layer was result, scraped heated in vessel with glycerin - honey .
this step repeated numerous times.

results in small amount of fairly strong tincture. exact potency still yet to be determined

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Felnik, have you tried orally activating dmt with your tinctures?

I'm not clear as to why you guys think the impure extract is more desirable. We know that the total alk% in this plant is incredibly low...so even if you have an impure extract, it doesn't mean more alks/greater effectiveness imo, just more other stuff from the plant. Can you explain why you feel impure to be superior? I haven't tried any of my impure extract, so I can't really comment.

Synergy: the effects of multiple similar drugs are stronger than any one single drug of the same amount.

Plant fats and oils are not necessarily 'similar drugs'. A full spectrum extract is a full spectrum extract...cleaning impurities is just that...removing things which are not actives. It would seem to me that 1g of impure, full spectrum extract would be less potent per dose than 500mg of pure, full spectrum extract.

 

[aliendreamtime]

Agreed my apologies

 

[Wax]

I think I may have found a bunch of Russian or Autumn Olive trees near my house but didn't get to check them out thoroughly. All the descriptions say that they have silvery "scales" the trees I found have silvery undersides but it is more of a fuzz than a scale, they don't have any fruits or flowers right now and I didn't get to check for thorns but other than that the leaf shape is the same and they look very much like pictures I have seen.

If any of you that have been working with either of these trees could clue me in on the fuzz vs. scales thing I would be much obliged so that I could get a positive ID on these. I will be going back tomorrow to further inspect them and collect some samples.

 

[Felnik]

It should be starting to produce small berries this time of year . They are actually considered fruits because of the one seed .

 

[Wax]

I went by today and I'm thinking they are not, as there were no thorns but every identification key I use tells me it is russian olive....I can't find out what these things are.

 

[blueshake]

Simple A/B extraction probably won't work because harman base is soluble in water. But A/B with Manske(based solution saturation) maybe will. Oh and anyone knows if those invisible pens which show under UV light, with an UV light attached(or whatever it is) will work, cuz I heard that it could be only some blue laser?

First post .

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Simple A/B extraction probably won't work because harman base is soluble in water.

Citation please?

Afaik, most alkaloids are insoluble in water in their freebase form.

All the literature I've seen for harman says things like "Sparingly soluble in hot water" or "It is practically insoluble in water and freely soluble in dilute acids" or "SOLUBILITY IN WATER: Insoluble."

 

[blueshake]

Solubility in water:Soluble.

http://www.chemdel.com/application_eng/Peganum harmala_plant.html

Harman. C12H10N2 - This related β-carboline alkaloid, which is first isolated from the bark of Arariba rubra, indigenous to Brazil; however its existence in P. harmala is not reported. This alkaloid is crystallized from several organic solvents as colorless prisms. It is readily soluble in methanol, alcohol, acetone, chloroform, or ether but only moderately so in hot water. It dissolves in mineral acids and exhibits a blue-violet fluorescence [7].

The solubility of harmine, and harmaline is lower in polar solvents, in contrast to harman.

Harmaline - This compound is slightly soluble in water, alcohol and ether, quite soluble in hot alcohol and dilute acids.

Harmine - It is slightly soluble in water, alcohol or ether.

We need to know exact solubility of harman, because of variety of sources, with different opinions about solubility. At least we know what is the color when lighted with UV(blue-violet).

And there is another thing, extract which will contain too much of an harmine or harmaline will fluorescent(wrong spelling?) worser than extract with moderate content of harmine or harmaline, as seen here File:Harmaline Harmine.jpg - Wikipedia. So it's good to see if a diluted extract will be fluorescent, if we doesn't see anything glowing.