Aya as a supplement?

[ohayoco]

The whole ayawaska process is too daunting for some people, so I was wondering if it could be taken as a supplement for these people?

It's often said that one of the reasons that ayawaska cures depression is that it causes the brain to develop new seratonin receptors (or something like that). Is this true, and could someone in the know please post sources?

Also, I'm not sure if this effect is produced by the raw vine, the vine brew, the raw vine and raw admixture, or the admixture alone (i.e. DMT), or the vine and admixture brew.

I remember Acolon_5 once told me he takes a teaspoon of ayawaska a day. I don't think at the time it was clarified if this is powdered vine, or brewed aya, or brewed aya with admixtures etc.

Also, in supplementary amounts, do I assume correctly that the dieta does not need to be followed? The need to follow such a diet would limit its usefulness.

All comments appreciated

 

[acolon_5]

Yes, I did experiment with micro doses of Caapi only brew. If I said a teaspoon I was probably refering to the amount of Caapi vine in each dose (and it would have been an approximate dose).

I brewed up 40 or 50grams white vine in about a liter of water (well, 3x in 1/3L each) This was NOT reduced, but highly filtered. I don't remember if I did an eggwhite filtration on it, I want to say no. Small amounts (they varied from a 1/8cup to 1/2cup) were drunk in the AM and in the PM.

This seemed to work as well or better than any SSRI I was perscribed in my youth. It was a very gradual change, but one that others around me noticed within a few days.

Full MAO inhibition is not reached with these low doses and no dietary restricitons were followed. I did stay away from most pharmaceutical stuff, but even that (with microdoses of the brew) is probably safe.

Whenever I start feeling depressed I will brew up another batch and take it for a few weeks.

A spice voyage will also jumpstart me out of a funk.

Good stuff, both of them.

 

[ohayoco]

Wow, thanks. Do you think powdered vine in gelcaps would work just as well as brew? Or would the powder be indigestible?

Another open question- if it really does 'grow' receptors (or whatever it's meant to do, I last heard this in the Hidden Worlds documentary), would this effect only occur with full doses, or coud supplements achieve the same? And is the change in brain chemistry/biology permanent or temporary?

 

[balaganist]

I think the whole process is a good thing.
It helps one to respect the plants, and oneself.
As acolon_5 suggested, a diluted brew drunk regularly could be less challenging to begin with.
And personally I would stick with pure vine to being with.

 

[polytrip]

Does tolerance build up if you take it on a daily basis?

 

[Trips]

Something very important to keep in mind; an increase in dendritic branching (and therefore, the number of receptors) should NOT be perceived to be positive by itself. Cocaine and Amphetamines significantly increase dendritric branching and length and the number of receptors at dopamine terminals, yet this is certainly not positive. These changes are permanent and result in reduced plasticity of the brain, removing some of the brain's natural ability to learn, grow and adapt. These changes are completely irreversible. That damage is never undone.

Whether the implications of increased 5-ht receptors has actually been studied, I do not know, but bear in mind that an increase in receptors is often due to desensitization and therefore evidence of a need for increased levels of serotonin to perform the same function.

If memory serves me correctly, SSRIs like fluoxetine (prozac) also cause an increase in Serotonin receptors.

 

[acolon_5]

Does tolerance build up if you take it on a daily basis?

No, a reverse tolerance is noted for Caapi.

As for the post above, there have been a few studies done on long term ayahusaca users, it seems to be very safe physically and mentally.

I've posted the study done by a US university. There are also quite a few other studies that the Brazilian government did prior to legalizing Ayahusaca.

In this study they talk about how SSRI's are a very crude way of treating depression whereas Ayashuasca actually FIXES the problem, not just floods the pathways with extra 5HT. Give it a read.

 

[ohayoco]

Sorry I meant Other Worlds, not Hidden Worlds.

I got the impression that the thing ayawaska does to the brain is unique and not the same as other chemical actions, but I could have got the wrong end of the stick.

It certainly FEELS healthy... SWIM feels more intelligent than he has in MANY years... unlike with other substances.

Anyone know if it's vine or DMT or both that does this? I assumed it was the vine. But DMT alone has a very positive effect on SWIM. I shall read your pdf Acolon_5, thank you

 

[Dorge]

a tea of the leaves i said to be taken as a mild anti-depressant...

 

[ohayoco]

Ooh and Acolon_5, what would you say would be the equivalent dosage to your bre supplements, if powdered caapi were used instead?
I guess if too much caapi is required, the brew could be evaporated and the residue taken?
Sorry for all the questions. But you could be onto something here. Imagine if people could take aya capsules instead of pharmaceutical antidepressants.

 

[burnt]

THH (tetrahydroharmine) may be the compound for ayahuasca's longer lasting antidepressant and calming effects, it has some slightly different effects then the traditional harmine and harmaline. I believe Jace Callaway and McKenna have looked into this but they have not any solid proof but there is much evidence for that case. I can't remember the source for that info but if I do I'll post.

SSRI's can cause downregulation of seretonin receptors I think over long term, thats why you withdraw when you stop taking them abruptly. Also need source can't remember.

 

[Fatcat]

I just finnished weening myself off of an SSRI, which was not fun. It worked for me in the begining, but then I started going back to my old ways. If there is a choice between a chemical and a plant, I will always take the plant. so I will have to give this one a try. Thank you very much for this knowlege, this is just one more great thing I have learned from this site.

 

[ohayoco]

Can extracted THH be bought? SWIM would definitely like to investigate further.
(And are extracts from suppliers food grade, I know they usually say "not for human consumption" so aren't required to make them so?)

Would it be bad to give it to the girl he knows who is in a bit of a state at the moment (she with the dedicated thread in this section)? Or is there sufficient research to consider this an ethical action?

 

[SWIMfriend]

No, a reverse tolerance is noted for Caapi.

As for the post above, there have been a few studies done on long term ayahusaca users, it seems to be very safe physically and mentally.

I've posted the study done by a US university. There are also quite a few other studies that the Brazilian government did prior to legalizing Ayahusaca.

In this study they talk about how SSRI's are a very crude way of treating depression whereas Ayashuasca actually FIXES the problem, not just floods the pathways with extra 5HT. Give it a read.

Just read your linked article; interesting. I don't think it applies well to the idea of chronic low-dose use of Caapi, though. In fact, about half way through the article it suggests that the MAOI portion would seem the LESS dangerous portion of the brew (but, of course, they do clearly note the concommitant use of SSRI as a very real danger), and so the real meat of the article concentrates on DMT and ignores harmaline related questions.

Bottom line, I don't think this article gives any good information about chronic, low-dose use of Caapi. It's main conclusion is that use of ayahuasca as it is used by the two Brazilian churches under study is not a significant danger.

 

[amor_fati]

SWIM's totally open to this! This is what he thought that 69ron was getting at in a different thread when he was talking about using microdoses and tropanes.

SWIM's been thinking about developing an amazing iced brew with coca tea and kola nut powder (among other possible ingredients) and he wonders about how safe small amounts of harmaloids would be in such a brew. He would be using it for hikes and other outdoorsy things, mostly.

 

[ohayoco]

Bottom line, I don't think this article gives any good information about chronic, low-dose use of Caapi.

I'm assuming that some shamen drink aya pretty much every day, and I've heard it said that some tribes drink it every day too. I have watched a video of a tribe too who drink something to make them vomit every morning (Bruce Parry's Amazon) and these people drink aya too, although I don't remember whether or not the documentary said that aya was their morning drink. So there are possible examples out there of HIGH-dose daily use. If only there were statistical studies of these people, how long they lived, when they died, mental health, brainscans, etc, instead of me having to conjecture. Because if it's fine for them, then low-dose supplements would definitely be safe.

 

[SWIMfriend]

I'm only saying what the article itself said. And again, the article seemed to basically try to answer the question of whether "standard" ayahuasca used in a "standardized" manner, i.e., the manner it's used by the two Brazilian churches which use it in a formalized manner, is harmful. The conclusion the author came to is that it isn't harmful.

But the article doesn't in any way address the use of Caapi by itself. The idea of acolon_5 that small doses of Caapi by itself might act as an anti-depressant is a reasonable one, but the article he provides doesn't really address that issue directly.

Why are so many people depressed, that's what I'd like to know. Might it have more to do with the society we've created rather than the number of serotonin receptors people have? IOW, maybe we need to change the world, or the way we live, rather than try to make permanent cellular changes in our brains.

That said...I don't mean to suggest that people shouldn't look to ayahuasca for healing or knowledge--and I'm certainly not trying to interject negativity into this thread. I guess my perspective is that things like ayahuasca seem meant for use intermittently, for illumination, rather than chronically, as something required for life.

 

[ohayoco]

People have always got depressed. It used to be called meloncholy. Different things would be prescribed- maybe a beer, a potion, religion, the Grand Tour. SWIM can tell you now that he has struggled with meloncholy on and off since adolescence, but has been fine since he discovered aya&DMT 6 months ago. He still has the full range of emotions, but doesn't get sucked into a negative cycle anymore. Check out the depression thread I started for more.

You make good points. The studies are not proof of safety for daily supplements. Is there any other substance that is more harmful ingested at say 1/10 dose every day instead of a 'binge' dose every 10 days? Not including harm through addiction, as that isn't relevent here.

 

[SWIMfriend]

....Is there any other substance that is more harmful ingested at say 1/10 dose every day instead of a 'binge' dose every 10 days?

Most "substances" other than food are "expected" to be used "when needed" and not everyday. I'll repeat: I don't mean to CLAIM that a low dose MAOI taken everyday MUST be a bad thing. I only mean to say that the referenced article says nothing in regard to that issue.

I will say again, maybe even more forcefully, that if one feels he needs every day to take a substance that can most accurately be called a "drug" (instead of a food), then he should probably question whether he really has a chronic "illness."

Depression (or melancholy) is a very vague experience (and, I don't deny, sometimes an incredibly profound and debilitating illness). I would hope your experience is more useful and valuable: your healing and insights from aya&DMT seemed to have ended your melancholy. You are not claiming you need or want to take Caapi everyday (and, for that matter, neither is acolon_5. He said he felt it would be useful when he felt depression coming on--still not the same as an everyday, permanent dietary supplement).

 

[prottel]

I have watched a video of a tribe too who drink something to make them vomit every morning (Bruce Parry's Amazon) and these people drink aya too, although I don't remember whether or not the documentary said that aya was their morning drink.

It was Ilex Guayusa that they drank in the morning. Good stuff. It is similar to yerba mate.