Ayahuasca/Anahuasca Onset of Effects

[PowerfulMedicine]

When exactly does the onset begin when taking ayahuasca or anahuasca? And where exactly does it begin?

I ask this because on my first anahuasca experience, I felt almost no increase in the effects until about 1 hour and 35 minutes after taking the DMT brew. Then the effects intensified quickly.

Is the onset of the effects considered to be the point where you can undoubtledly feel the effects from the DMT? Also, is 1 hour and 35 minutes typical for an onset time? From what I can find it seems 20-60 minutes is the norm. And if it's not normal, what could have caused it?

 

[Jees]

I've distinguished phases.

First one, absorption of actives by the tissue of mouth - gullet - stomach wall.
This gives a fairly swift but tiny come-on like already after 30 minutes, promising a lot but can fade away after 15 minutes, leaving one "oh is it over now?"

Second phase, between 1 to 3 hours in, the release of the stomach content into the bowels, this is where the real deal starts. Can be kick started by eating something.

Third phase, optional wave by release of the gall bladder content into the small intestine, this wave and the second phase are often mixed up by people, I believe, but that is just a hunch, I've no proof of this.

Your 1h30 is quite on spot.

When the shivers / cold feeling / nausea sets in, is like a nice promise that within the next 30 minutes something is going to happen . All developments are quite personal.

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

This gives a fairly swift but tiny come-on like already after 30 minutes, promising a lot but can fade away after 15 minutes, leaving one "oh is it over now?"

It's interesting that you mention this, because I did experience a mild rush of effects at about 30 minutes after taking the Acacia brew. I thought that this was going to be the real come up, but the effects of this only lasted about 15 minutes, then subsided a little.

I got worried that this experiment might have been somehow botched. But then I thought that perhaps this rush was due to the syrian rue. At the time it didn't occur to me that the DMT might have caused it. I assumed the DMT would hit all at once.

When the shivers / cold feeling / nausea sets in, is like a nice promise that within the next 30 minutes something is going to happen

The nausea actually started to go away once the DMT was really kicking in. I was more nauseous before the major onset than after it. This might be since I took a low dose of Datura before everything for its antiemetic effects.

This supports your idea that the second more intense onset is due to the stomach contents entering the intestines. The brew leaving my stomach would have alleviated any nausea due to stomach irritation caused by the brew. After which, the pharmacologically induced nausea of the DMT and the harmalas would have been blocked by the Datura.

 

[Jees]

...The nausea actually started to go away once the DMT was really kicking in. I was more nauseous before the major onset than after it. This might be since I took a low dose of Datura before everything for its antiemetic effects...

IME, the bodily-physically nausea trades for the voyage intensity on its own legs as a natural process, and I also suppose it is the stomach having lesser battle with it contents (tannin in particular I suppose) as passage into the bowels happens. I've not tried datura to give skew to this process.
So yes when the game goes on, the bodily nausea does fade, but then another kind of purge can develop which is caused by the severe intensities leading toward expelling of energy, in the form of purge. This is the healing purge in my view.
So I see 3 different possible throw ups:
- the gag reflex expelling, very soon after ingestion;
- the come-on nausea: physical body adapting effects, stomach related;
- the intensity purge, where energy levels are in need of correction by purge.

1 and 2 are fairly counter-able by lying very still. Not so number 3 :d
1 and 2 are of lesser/no magnitude with extracts (no tannin), 3 has it's own agenda.

This is how it works on me, nice to hear so much resemblance with your experience, reports of deviating flows are very welcome to hear of, thanks.

 

[Ryusaki]

Agree with Jees.

If the Aya/anahuasca is to weak and the energy is not enough to force you to purge (the intensity purge), then you can hang in-between, which is unfavorable.

I had this a couple of times, felt nauseous, but not enough energy to purge, suffered for an hour or two until i stuck my fingers in my throat and forced it out, then the visions came on strong.

So if you are stuck in the nausea phase and it wont go further:
smoke mapacho and inhale Palo Santo smoke
drink a littlebit more
try forcing the purge (if nothing else works)

For me Aya comes exactly after 60 mins. Then in 45min intervals. Nausea shouldn't last longer than 10-45 min (with a "normal" dose) for one interval.

 

[Global]

Jees, I love your distinction in the different kinds of purging. It's spot on.

 

[Jees]

Thanks for the affirmations.

...I had this a couple of times, felt nauseous, but not enough energy to purge, suffered for an hour or two until i stuck my fingers in my throat and forced it out, then the visions came on strong...

It is a typical thing for the intensities to come after a purge action. In my opinion, the purge action is a pressure contraction of stomach-region, leading to spill out over top, but also (and that is my assumption) trough hat other hole of the stomach, direction intestines. This way making the purge also a boost of actives into the bowels, leading to the intensities mentioned.

For those advocating more the gall bladder theory, the mechanical purge action contraction can quite easily also empty the with actives loaded gall bladder into the small intestine, creating likewise effect.

It's just to say it is not necessarily a metaphysical phenomena only. Can be quite "mechanical" effect too. Though, the metaphysical can still be part of the happening, the purge as the bridge portal to the other dimensions.

 

[Infectedstyle]

Same thing with (male) orgasm muscle contraction imo!

Ewww. hahaha

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

1 and 2 are fairly counter-able by lying very still. Not so number 3 :d
1 and 2 are of lesser/no magnitude with extracts (no tannin), 3 has it's own agenda.

Now I don't have all that much experience with oral DMT brews, but from my limited experience and from reading about the experiences of others, I would have to say that I don't agree with these statements.

I would argue that the 3rd type of purge is avoidable. Datura is known to be able to block nausea and prevent vomiting caused by many substances. My one experience using Datura as an antiemetic for oral DMT doesn't prove that it will always work for me or other people, but it supports the idea that the 3rd type of purge can be countered.

I took a 5g brew of syrian rue and 20g brew of Acacia confusa. It had very strong effects, yet I experienced very little nausea and did not purge. I never felt an urge to purge and was not stuck in any in-between state as far as I could tell.

And there have been a few other threads recently about other people's herbal admixtures used to effectively decrease nausea and prevent vomiting while on ayahuasca/anahuasca.

There may be a metaphysical explanation to the purge regarding energy and such, but this is only part of the explanation. There is also a pharmacological aspect to the purge.

Therefore, it should be possible to take the right herb(s) to prevent the purge. This herb just has to interact with receptors in the body in such a way that it counteracts the vomit inducing action of the brew.

 

[Global]

I would argue that the 3rd type of purge is avoidable. Datura is known to be able to block nausea and prevent vomiting caused by many substances. My one experience using Datura as an antiemetic for oral DMT doesn't prove that it will always work for me or other people, but it supports the idea that the 3rd type of purge can be countered.

It's fully possible to take ayahuasca and not purge at all without any antiemetics or precautions or anything like that. I don't think that you took datura supports the idea that the 3rd type of purge can be countered. It could easily just mean that you weren't going to get that one anyway.

I used to focus on avoiding the purge, but it goes hand in hand with DMT/aya's lessons of letting go. When it's done, I really usually do feel better beyond measure. There have been times where I've taken things to try and prevent the nausea, and instead I just get stuck with a light nausea and get stuck in between. Of course there's no guarantee you'll get stuck in between, and you'd be lucky if you didn't, but it doesn't mean things will always play out the same way. It's my preference to want to be "pushed over the edge" in regards to vomiting, so I can get it over, feel like a super star, and move on with the experience. The way that I personally find most pleasing for inducing the purge is really simple: smoke DMT. When I smoke DMT (for the first time during the aya experience) within seconds, it can often shoot the nausea straight through the ceiling which lets me easily, yet forcefully get it all up.

Surely if nothing else, there's something better for you to use than Datura. Even if you have to use a slightly less effective antiemetic, Datura is physically and psychologically dangerous, and even though some shamans may use it in their brews, I personally wouldn't want my own aya experiences tainted with that strange energy.

 

[Jees]

1 and 2 are fairly counter-able by lying very still. Not so number 3 :d
1 and 2 are of lesser/no magnitude with extracts (no tannin), 3 has it's own agenda.

...I would argue that the 3rd type of purge is avoidable...

I had better said, #3 has a more ceremonial purpose, where #2 and #1 are merely just reactions. I would save on 2 and 1 to invest in 3 if possible, because 3 makes a particular shift happen.

There must be lots of posts about the healing effect of "the purge" that cause a dramatic favorable overhaul to people. So why avoiding? A bit what Global said.

If you get "in trouble" all you ever want is to purge off the excessive energy peak, you'll be begging on your knees, to please please get some out.

I would save #3 in the pocket if possible, certainly not try to nullify it in advance with admixtures. If I was to use a Solanaceae, it would be for other reasons than that.

If not being in trouble, and #3 makes it introduction symptoms anyway, I feel happy for the soon coming next phase of the ceremony. Is like having respect for the agenda that is offered by the medicine itself, not so much what I want that happens or not.

Perhaps you're right and #3 can be countered in some cases, but as you know by now, personally I'm not in favor of doing that. I'll not seek it either, only listening to it's agenda and trust this agenda to be very valuable.

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

I respect and understand the idea that the purge has a ceremonial purpose and can teach you about letting go as well as removing accumulations of negative energy and acting as a sort of safety line in case the experience gets too strong for you.

But at this point I feel that it's a waste to purge out perfectly good brew that still has actives in it. It feels like sacrilege to me. The plants in the brew are of limited supply in the world and I personally only have a limited supply of them.

I want to get as much out of the experience as possible, regardless of how intense it gets. Preventing the purge may prevent me from learning the lessons of the purge, but it hypothetically would allow me to learn other lessons. Like understanding the consequences of my actions.

If the experience becomes too much to handle, I'll just have to deal with it. This is just another path to the same lesson of letting go. It might not be as gentle, but I had no problems the first time and I feel that I'm psychologically "prepared" if a problem should occur in the future.

But I'll definitely try to not avoid the purge and see how it differs from avoiding it at some point in the future. Maybe I'll prefer the purge, but I'd rather decide that for myself.

This is all hypothetical and dependent on whether Datura actually prevents the purge in the future though. I believe it did. I've used Datura for many years now. I consider it an ally. I've used it many times to effectively block the nausea and vomiting caused by other substances. I see no reason that it wouldn't work the same for ayahuasca/anahuasca.

And my experience with Datura definitely does support the idea that the third type can be countered. It doesn't prove it, but nothing is ever truly proven. I'll have to repeat these results for my experience to strongly support (prove) this idea.

 

[Jees]

...But at this point I feel that it's a waste to purge out perfectly good brew that still has actives in it. It feels like sacrilege to me. The plants in the brew are of limited supply in the world and I personally only have a limited supply of them...

I agree that #2 and #1 can be seen as a waste (but not absolute in all cases, but yes in many), but not #3. I think of avoiding "The Healing Purge" as a waste. The very best and sacred honoring of the limited plants is: to have a healing purge.

It seems you think a bit linear (mathematically) toward the experience, but you'll notice none of that will remain later. You think to be ready for dealing with a trouble case too, well sorry but nobody, really nobody can be so, no one is born prepared to face the intensity of infinity. In that, we have compassion toward each other, we stand together, in facing this ordeal.

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

I think of avoiding "The Healing Purge" as a waste. The very best and sacred honoring of the limited plants is: to have a healing purge.

I completely respect this opinion. You definitely have more experience than I do and you may be completely right. I may come to view the purge as an integral part of the experience later on. But this is an opinion none-the-less.

It doesn't take experience to understand that to journey with ayahuasca/anahuasca is a very personal thing, just like an opinion. If I choose to avoid the purge as I continue on my journey, that does not make it any less valid of an opinion or path.

But I do like to keep an open mind. I will try to embrace the purge. I'll look at this issue from both angles and decide what works best for me.

You think to be ready for dealing with a trouble case too, well sorry but nobody, really nobody can be so, no one is born prepared to face the intensity of infinity.

Maybe I should have said that I'm willing to experience difficult situations instead of saying that I'm ready to deal with them. If I was already prepared, then they wouldn't be difficult. What I mean is that I'm fully willing to experience and even invite difficult experiences since I feel that these are the types of experiences that teach us the most.

Even if I end up a sniveling mess trying to pick up the pieces of my broken existence, I will be happy to learn as much from the experience as possible.

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

 

[Global]

But at this point I feel that it's a waste to purge out perfectly good brew that still has actives in it. It feels like sacrilege to me. The plants in the brew are of limited supply in the world and I personally only have a limited supply of them.

I want to get as much out of the experience as possible, regardless of how intense it gets. Preventing the purge may prevent me from learning the lessons of the purge, but it hypothetically would allow me to learn other lessons. Like understanding the consequences of my actions.

IME, it doesn't necessarily follow that by holding onto the actives, that this results in a stronger experience. It depends on when you purge following consumption of course (purging earlier on may indeed weaken the experience) but at a certain point, the process of going through the purge, with the blood rushing to your head, the complete disorientation, the violent energetic interactions, etc...all seem to lead into a stronger experience. If anything, the main course of it all plays out after the purge.

 

[Jees]

...Even if I end up a sniveling mess trying to pick up the pieces of my broken existence, I will be happy to learn as much from the experience as possible...

That is a good attitude, congrats.

Some things do look confusing, like one purge making the intensities go up, while another purge can equalize too much of intensities. Each experience is so unique that there are no set of definite rules for it, and within one experience things can go opposite, etc.

Some people report of having a very pre-mature purge, like all actives wasted, and still having a major experience nonetheless. Very weird. Or others having no purge, several cups, and no experience to write home about. Or same brew, same dose, having severe different effects on same person on different days.

I did not wanted to alarm you, learning comes with a bruise now and then, like when learning to ride a bike or a skate board, it just belongs to learning, the occasional hard experience is very natural, and people come back in one piece, the parachute works very dependently.
:thumb_up:

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

I tried anahuasca again. I used the same dosing and timeline as my first experience. 5g syrian rue brew taken 15 minutes before 20g Acacia confusa brew. Both times I fasted for the entire day and took a low dose of Datura before taking the brews.

The first time it took 1.5 hours for the Acacia to hit and then it built up fast but not too fast. This is pretty normal according to the people in this thread. So I expected for it to work this way again.

It did not work like this at all. I started feeling jittery and stimulated 20 minutes after taking the Acacia. By 25 minutes I was tripping. And by 30 minutes I was tripping really hard.

I started to panic. I knew that I was in no danger from a physical standpoint, but I started to fear that I was going to die. I tried to force myself to vomit despite the absence of any nausea. I couldn't get anything out at first. I literally had to force almost my entire hand down my throat multiple times in order to vomit.

The purge calmed me down immensely but I ended up vomiting up most of the dose and the effects gradually died away after the purge. I had come down enough to pass for sober after 2 hours without experiencing anything all that profound. I did feel amazing though.

So what the hell happened? I'm starting to think that Datura doesn't completely prevent the purge. It just blocks any nausea and allows you to hold down the brew should you choose to do so.

But why did it hit so hard and fast this time? I could feel the Acacia so quickly and the effects went from zero to freaking out within 15 minutes.

This doesn't seem typical and the only explanation I can think of is my recent dietary change. I decided to go vegetarian for lent and I've also been microdosing Syrian rue for the last few days.

I'm essentially on a dieta similar to those done by South American tribes. Could this dieta really have had such drastic effects after only a few days? Or should I just chock this up to random chance?

 

[DMiTria]

My opinion on his onset thread deals with the Ayahuasca Vine and Chacruna. I put the medicine to my lips and then shot it into my mouth thinking, "this taste horrible, Oh shit swallow quickly." Then in two gulps pushed it down chased it with some water and sat with it. It was kind of nauseating just slightly. She started to build up slowly coming up in the duration of 30-45 minutes. I started to feel light... numb in a sense. I started to gag a little bit then I knew to just let it come, I start to purge fully. As this happened she started to come in gradually from a microcosm point in the minds eye. After this I was losing my sense of consensus reality falling into full consciousness of pure light.

Jees Wrote:

1 and 2 are fairly counter-able by lying very still. Not so number 3 Very happy
1 and 2 are of lesser/no magnitude with extracts (no tannin), 3 has it's own agenda.

I agree with this in a way.

1) Is your body saying, I've had enough lets get rid of the excess.

2) This loops in to the 1st one and you start purging all of your toxins that she doesn't want in your body
(for me this was the worst of the 3 but the most important because this starts the full blown experience)

3) This is the best kind of purging, weird to say, because this is your emotional and excess energy when it gets too much.
Like when I would purge it felt amazing and then I would feel lighter and more expanded.

The purge it a must, blocking it only blocks the healing aspects of the medicine. Datura will block it but in turn, could make it uncomfortable and make the journey less than it could be. The purge is there for a reason modifying it, modifies the type of experience it is.

 

[Jees]

...3) ... it felt amazing and then I would feel lighter and more expanded...

^ Agreed.

* * *

PFM: now that was a quick transition from purge-antagonist to purge-partisan

I started to panic...So what the hell happened?...

Well, to start with, this:

...5g syrian rue ... 20g Acacia confusa...

:shock:
If you brew them well, and the acacia is inner bark quality, then no wonder. Take it easy.

...the only explanation I can think of is my recent dietary change...Or should I just chock this up to random chance?

Same doses, same man, you were informed of the unpredictability, right?
Also about getting some "bruises" on the learning path.
I 'd think you handled this well, and congrats for meeting the intensities, big hug!

The work, IME, is to learn to make friends with it, and work with it, instead of being solely beaten by it's power. To find your "legs and spine" in that realm. Find dosage that suits you, and likely that might even lower in time, as familiarization get's you faster and easier at targeted levels.

I feel (=subjective), it is very personal work, but also taking the heat for a collective component.

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

To be honest, I totally regret that I purged this time. And even worse is that I seemed to have chosen to purge. I know that the purge can teach you lessons of letting go, but I see this experience as me failing to let go.

I let fear dictate my actions. I was unable to let go of irrational ideas and the desire for comfort.

I'm not totally against irrational thought. Irrational thought is an inescapable consequence of the human experience and has it merits and purpose. And I'm not totally against comfort. Some level of comfort is necessary to sustain life.

These two things are necessary for survival, but I feel that irrational thought and the desire for comfort are ultimately the roots of "evil" when they are allowed to have too much control over us. Irrational thought stems from fear, which causes us to lash out unnecessarily and cause harm to others when we don't keep it in check. And the desire for comfort becomes greed when it is not controlled, causing us to unnecessarily harm others in order to amass material wealth under the justification that it will increase our comfort and happiness.

I try to live my life in such a way that I do not allow fear and and greed to control me. I embrace poverty to an extent, being content with a relatively simple lifestyle. And I spend much time nurturing my ability to act rationally in order to use fear wisely.

So I see this as a failure. But that doesn't mean I feel beaten. This has just increased my respect and awe for this medicine.