Ayahuasca and Asthma

[Lizz_H]

Hello,

I am hoping to sit with Ayahuasca but am struggling to find definitive information on whether the inhaler I use to manage asthma (Symbicort), which contains budesonide is contraindicated. The guide I have spoken with said that to attend ceremony with them, I would need to stop using the inhaler for three days prior to ceremony, but this wouldn't be possible for me as it's the only method I have of controlling asthma.

Any guidance you can provide would be very helpful.

 

[Pumpy]

The guide I have spoken with said that to attend ceremony with them, I would need to stop using the inhaler for three days prior to ceremony, but this wouldn't be possible for me as it's the only method I have of controlling asthma.

End

I am hoping to sit with Ayahuasca but

Chronic administration of budenosine can have systemic effects that affect the brain, such as altering stress responses, mood, and neurotransmitters, and long-term use or high-dose systemic absorption could lead to side effects like psychiatric symptoms or issues related to increased stress hormone (hypercortisolism)

 

[Jamie01]

Did your guide say why you must stop? Or do they even know anything about it?

 

[Varallo]

You should not use this medication in combination with ayahuasca. According to the source, see pdf, there are clear contraindications and warnings, see point two of contraindications. According to this source it would be necessary to stop using this medication for at least two weeks to fully clear it from your system. The three days mentioned by your guides are therefore far too short.

It is important not to stop your asthma medication, since your asthma needs to remain stable and simpler medications are unlikely to be sufficient. Changing your medication only to use ayahuasca is in my opinion not really an good idea.

Luckily there are plenty of other options,?such as psilocybin mushrooms or other substances from the tryptamine group, that can create similar experiences without the same contraindications.

Chronic administration of budenosine can have systemic effects that affect the brain, such as altering stress responses, mood, and neurotransmitters, and long-term use or high-dose systemic absorption could lead to side effects like psychiatric symptoms or issues related to increased stress hormone (hypercortisolism)

@Pumpy , let’s be careful, Symbicort is well tolerated and what you’re referring to is dose related, inhalation of said drug does not cause the issues you’re describing.

 

[Pumpy]

@Pumpy , let’s be careful, Symbicort is well tolerated and what you’re referring to is dose related, inhalation of said drug does not cause the issues you’re describing.

I was referring to the long time repeated (chronic) dose pattern described by op wherein they stated that not using the inhaler for three days would 'not be possible for me.' @Varallo It is my contention that a chronic user of budenosine will experience the issues described in my comment not directly as a result of the small dose but rather from their chronic dose pattern. That is why i underlined the phrase 'long term use'

 

[Varallo]

I was referring to the long time repeated (chronic) dose pattern described by op wherein they stated that not using the inhaler for three days would 'not be possible for me.' @Varallo It is my contention that a chronic user of budenosine will experience the issues described in my comment not directly as a result of the small dose but rather from their chronic dose pattern. That is why i underlined the phrase 'long term use'

Yes, I have read what you wrote, but that does not apply here. Chronic use in low doses does not lead to the effects you described. I find it problematic that you present it this way, as it can create unnecessary fear. Also it’s derailing this thread, which is about the contraindications between Symbicort and Ayahuasca.

 

[Lizz_H]

You should not use this medication in combination with ayahuasca. According to the source, see pdf, there are clear contraindications and warnings, see point two of contraindications. According to this source it would be necessary to stop using this medication for at least two weeks to fully clear it from your system. The three days mentioned by your guides are therefore far too short.

It is important not to stop your asthma medication, since your asthma needs to remain stable and simpler medications are unlikely to be sufficient. Changing your medication only to use ayahuasca is in my opinion not really an good idea.

Luckily there are plenty of other options,?such as psilocybin mushrooms or other substances from the tryptamine group, that can create similar experiences without the same contraindications.

@Pumpy , let’s be careful, Symbicort is well tolerated and what you’re referring to is dose related, inhalation of said drug does not cause the issues you’re describing.

Thanks for this - very helpful. You mention "other substances from the tryptamine group" - could I tolerate DMT and still use the inhaler?

 

[Lizz_H]

Yes, I have read what you wrote, but that does not apply here. Chronic use in low doses does not lead to the effects you described. I find it problematic that you present it this way, as it can create unnecessary fear. Also it’s derailing this thread, which is about the contraindications between Symbicort and Ayahuasca.

I take 100/6 twice in the morning and twice in the evening. I am travelling to Costa Rica for ceremony (with psilocybin if I'm unable to tolerate Aya) and the last time I was there, my asthma was so good I was forgetting to use the inhaler, but in the UK, I am very reliant on it...

 

[Varallo]

Thanks for this - very helpful. You mention "other substances from the tryptamine group" - could I tolerate DMT and still use the inhaler?

You could use DMT, but without oral activation it is usually inhaled, which does not always work well with asthma. Other tryptamines, like psilocybin from mushrooms, can also be an option. If you are seeking a transformative experience, many find mescaline to be a positive one.

The concern is that harmalas, harmine and harmaline, can interact poorly with certain medications, as the paper I shared explains this is the case with Symbicort. That does not mean ayahuasca will always cause problems, but without medical supervision to monitor things like blood pressure and heart rate, it remains a real risk. Nobody here would recommend doing that, and neither would I.

Ayahuasca is often hyped, but it is not the only path. Retreat centers may claim that three days are enough, and sometimes that may be true, though the paper suggests at least a two week gap for Symbicort. When weighing the risk of an asthma attack against having an ayahuasca experience, the choice is clear. Even if the risk seems small, it is still a serious one, so I would not recommend it.

 

[Lizz_H]

This is reassuring to hear. I also have high blood pressure and take Ramipril for this. Would I be able to sit with mescaline or san pedro safely?

 

[blig-blug]

That does not mean ayahuasca will always cause problems, but without medical supervision to monitor things like blood pressure and heart rate, it remains a real risk

Indeed, and the fear of having some medical emergency is not anything you want to be dealing with during the experience. Imagine suspecting almost any strange, uncomfortable, or painful physical sensation (and there may be many) to be a sign of a medical emergency, and not being able to tell the difference. Or the opposite, disregarding an actual signal of danger because you think it must be the effects of the substance. It's not worth it.

Ayahuasca is often hyped, but it is not the only path

Very much this. I personally like it because it works well for me, but there is nothing inherently better or superior about it vs. other psychedelics.

I also have high blood pressure and take Ramipril for this. Would I be able to sit with mescaline or san pedro safely?

I don't know, but be careful with mescaline if you have high blood pressure, as it raises blood pressure. I don't know if it's enough for it to be a problem or not. Mushrooms would be a safer option IMO (and closer to Ayahuasca and DMT, too).

 

[Lizz_H]

I have done some mushrooms ceremonies and the guide suggested ayahuasca because I needed something stronger. When I go back, the guide has suggested that we do "hero's dose" of mushrooms because of our concerns that ayahuasca is not safe for me. How would this compare to ayahuasca? There is a lot of hype about this being thing for trauma and addiction healing, because "it gets to the root cause". This isn't something I have experienced with mushrooms.

 

[blig-blug]

I have done some mushrooms ceremonies and the guide suggested ayahuasca because I needed something stronger. When I go back, the guide has suggested that we do "hero's dose" of mushrooms because of our concerns that ayahuasca is not safe for me. How would this compare to ayahuasca? There is a lot of hype about this being thing for trauma and addiction healing, because "it gets to the root cause". This isn't something I have experienced with mushrooms.

I would say it's a matter of dose. Ayahuasca is not strong (or weak) by itself, although it does tend to cause more physiological effects (think vomiting, diarrhea) than other psychedelics. That does certainly make it more difficult and may lead your mind into certain directions. It probably depends on people.

A good dose of mushrooms should be able to take you as far as Ayahuasca, and both as far as you want to go. I personally find mushrooms mentally more challenging, to other people it's the opposite. Ayahuasca is being quite helpful to me these days, but the only time in my life where I've experienced a psychological problem stopping after a single dose was with mushrooms: many years ago, I used to feel very jealous (to unhealthy levels) if my close friends spent a lot of time with another people. One time I had mushrooms, I saw some shapes somehow related to that, and suddenly they all came together and it almost literally "clicked" in my mind. And after that, that jealousy was extremely reduced, and ended up disappearing after a couple of months.
I don't say this to imply that a single dose of mushrooms will help you in a similar way, just to illustrate that they aren't "weaker" in any way, at least in my opinion.

suggested that we do "hero's dose" of mushrooms

Do you know more or less what the dose (and the kind of mushroom) would be?

 

[Lizz_H]

I would say it's a matter of dose. Ayahuasca is not strong (or weak) by itself, although it does tend to cause more physiological effects (think vomiting, diarrhea) than other psychedelics. That does certainly make it more difficult and may lead your mind into certain directions. It probably depends on people.

A good dose of mushrooms should be able to take you as far as Ayahuasca, and both as far as you want to go. I personally find mushrooms mentally more challenging, to other people it's the opposite. Ayahuasca is being quite helpful to me these days, but the only time in my life where I've experienced a psychological problem stopping after a single dose was with mushrooms: many years ago, I used to feel very jealous (to unhealthy levels) if my close friends spent a lot of time with another people. One time I had mushrooms, I saw some shapes somehow related to that, and suddenly they all came together and it almost literally "clicked" in my mind. And after that, that jealousy was extremely reduced, and ended up disappearing after a couple of months.
I don't say this to imply that a single dose of mushrooms will help you in a similar way, just to illustrate that they aren't "weaker" in any way, at least in my opinion.


Do you know more or less what the dose (and the kind of mushroom) would be?

Thanks. I don't, however the guide is really experienced and I guess we will be drinking cups through the night, so we can see how I go. I've read that a 'hero's dose' is >5g

 

[Lizz_H]

I would say it's a matter of dose. Ayahuasca is not strong (or weak) by itself, although it does tend to cause more physiological effects (think vomiting, diarrhea) than other psychedelics. That does certainly make it more difficult and may lead your mind into certain directions. It probably depends on people.

A good dose of mushrooms should be able to take you as far as Ayahuasca, and both as far as you want to go. I personally find mushrooms mentally more challenging, to other people it's the opposite. Ayahuasca is being quite helpful to me these days, but the only time in my life where I've experienced a psychological problem stopping after a single dose was with mushrooms: many years ago, I used to feel very jealous (to unhealthy levels) if my close friends spent a lot of time with another people. One time I had mushrooms, I saw some shapes somehow related to that, and suddenly they all came together and it almost literally "clicked" in my mind. And after that, that jealousy was extremely reduced, and ended up disappearing after a couple of months.
I don't say this to imply that a single dose of mushrooms will help you in a similar way, just to illustrate that they aren't "weaker" in any way, at least in my opinion.


Do you know more or less what the dose (and the kind of mushroom) would be?

This is really helpful though; I've been very fixed on the idea 'I need ayahuasca for my healing' and realising that I cannot sit with it has been very disappointing for me.

 

[Lizz_H]

I would say it's a matter of dose. Ayahuasca is not strong (or weak) by itself, although it does tend to cause more physiological effects (think vomiting, diarrhea) than other psychedelics. That does certainly make it more difficult and may lead your mind into certain directions. It probably depends on people.

A good dose of mushrooms should be able to take you as far as Ayahuasca, and both as far as you want to go. I personally find mushrooms mentally more challenging, to other people it's the opposite. Ayahuasca is being quite helpful to me these days, but the only time in my life where I've experienced a psychological problem stopping after a single dose was with mushrooms: many years ago, I used to feel very jealous (to unhealthy levels) if my close friends spent a lot of time with another people. One time I had mushrooms, I saw some shapes somehow related to that, and suddenly they all came together and it almost literally "clicked" in my mind. And after that, that jealousy was extremely reduced, and ended up disappearing after a couple of months.
I don't say this to imply that a single dose of mushrooms will help you in a similar way, just to illustrate that they aren't "weaker" in any way, at least in my opinion.


Do you know more or less what the dose (and the kind of mushroom) would b

I would say it's a matter of dose. Ayahuasca is not strong (or weak) by itself, although it does tend to cause more physiological effects (think vomiting, diarrhea) than other psychedelics. That does certainly make it more difficult and may lead your mind into certain directions. It probably depends on people.

A good dose of mushrooms should be able to take you as far as Ayahuasca, and both as far as you want to go. I personally find mushrooms mentally more challenging, to other people it's the opposite. Ayahuasca is being quite helpful to me these days, but the only time in my life where I've experienced a psychological problem stopping after a single dose was with mushrooms: many years ago, I used to feel very jealous (to unhealthy levels) if my close friends spent a lot of time with another people. One time I had mushrooms, I saw some shapes somehow related to that, and suddenly they all came together and it almost literally "clicked" in my mind. And after that, that jealousy was extremely reduced, and ended up disappearing after a couple of months.
I don't say this to imply that a single dose of mushrooms will help you in a similar way, just to illustrate that they aren't "weaker" in any way, at least in my opinion.


Do you know more or less what the dose (and the kind of mushroom) would be?

There also seems to be a hierarchy with 'intelligent' psychedelics - with mushrooms being viewed as the children and aya as the grandmother...

 

[blig-blug]

There also seems to be a hierarchy with 'intelligent' psychedelics - with mushrooms being viewed as the children and aya as the grandmother...

People are free to have their own ideas about this, but it doesn't match my experience, both personal and from what I've read from other people.

I think this idea may come from the fact that many people take low doses of mushrooms for fun and lighthearted purposes, while that's more difficult with Ayahuasca due to it's physical effects. But that doesn't say much about how the higher doses are like. I also suspect marketing may be involved.

Maybe Ayahuasca would be better suited for you (I don't know either way), but that doesn't mean that only in Ayahuasca you can find what you need. And mushrooms are probably the closest you can get to Ayahuasca without DMT and harmalas, while being lighter on the heart than mescaline. Hence my recommendation.

 

[northape]

There also seems to be a hierarchy with 'intelligent' psychedelics - with mushrooms being viewed as the children and aya as the grandmother...

It could also be a subjective representation of the effects. Ayahuasca is usually serious and much colder than mushrooms. It often presents itself as a grandmother for Western folk, or that archetype fits it the best. Mushrooms are much more cheerful, playful, and full of tricks (mind loops). A bunch of playing kids would be a good image to describe them.

However, when you get into higher doses, it all starts to blur, and the lessons received are beyond these simple descriptions. Then, all mushrooms are not the same: wild liberty caps are quite different to homegrown cubensis. Try to develop a personal relationship with mushrooms instead of relying on some other guide. It could take years, but you will reap some real benefits along the way. It is an easier task than finding a good Ayahuasca brew and people who have integrity in their work with it.

 

[Lizz_H]

It could also be a subjective representation of the effects. Ayahuasca is usually serious and much colder than mushrooms. It often presents itself as a grandmother for Western folk, or that archetype fits it the best. Mushrooms are much more cheerful, playful, and full of tricks (mind loops). A bunch of playing kids would be a good image to describe them.

However, when you get into higher doses, it all starts to blur, and the lessons received are beyond these simple descriptions. Then, all mushrooms are not the same: wild liberty caps are quite different to homegrown cubensis. Try to develop a personal relationship with mushrooms instead of relying on some other guide. It could take years, but you will reap some real benefits along the way. It is an easier task than finding a good Ayahuasca brew and people who have integrity in their work with it.

This is a really helpful idea. I have tried to forage for liberty caps myself, so I have control over this process, but haven't had any luck yet. I am thinking about growing myself, again to support fostering this relationship. This for this perspective

 

[northape]

This is a really helpful idea. I have tried to forage for liberty caps myself, so I have control over this process, but haven't had any luck yet. I am thinking about growing myself, again to support fostering this relationship. This for this perspective

Do both. Try to forage for liberty caps and learn to grow. Consider it the beginning of your personal relationship with mushrooms.
Check out this thread, and everything by @Bancopuma:

Reflections on P. cubensis and other species

Hi All, I would be interested in hearing the views of other psilonauts here on the Nexus who have experience with P. cubensis and other species how they feel about the differences in effects profile sometimes attributed to different species of mushroom. Have you noticed consistent differences in...

forum.dmt-nexus.me