Ayahuasca and Dreams

[Algestaltzovisions]

I just completed my first ayahuasca journey. Technically I didn't break through mostly purged. Had a small vision but was told I couldn't proceed until I got the garbage out. Which I did, mostly anger.
100gs B caapi black logs hand shredded and 100gs viridis. I still learned a great deal and it gave me better insight on how to proceed with future journeys. I will continue attempting.

After the ayahuasca experience was over I went to bed and ended up having the most vivid dreams I've had in a while.

The question here is, does this happen to others? Should I interpret the dreams as a message from the medicine or is this possibly a byproduct of the detoxification effect of the purge. Similar to the effect of abstaining from marijuana for a couple of days if you are a daily smoker which I am and abstinence usually results in vivid dreams.
It might be wise to mention that I also consumed caapi only brew a week prior with purge and No dreams on this occasion.
It goes without saying that I dream frequently and pay close attention to them.

This is my first post hopefully it goes well. I am in the process of writing down my whole experience with detail and will later post here.

 

[fathomlessness]

I just completed my first ayahuasca journey. Technically I didn't break through mostly purged. Had a small vision but was told I couldn't proceed until I got the garbage out. Which I did, mostly anger.
100gs B caapi black logs hand shredded and 100gs viridis. I still learned a great deal and it gave me better insight on how to proceed with future journeys. I will continue attempting.

After the ayahuasca experience was over I went to bed and ended up having the most vivid dreams I've had in a while.

The question here is, does this happen to others? Should I interpret the dreams as a message from the medicine or is this possibly a byproduct of the detoxification effect of the purge. Similar to the effect of abstaining from marijuana for a couple of days if you are a daily smoker which I am and abstinence usually results in vivid dreams.
It might be wise to mention that I also consumed caapi only brew a week prior with purge and No dreams on this occasion.
It goes without saying that I dream frequently and pay close attention to them.

This is my first post hopefully it goes well. I am in the process of writing down my whole experience with detail and will later post here.

Well, you may not like to hear it but this can be explained by science. It isn't always "the plant spirits" that make you dream hard. DMT primarily works on the 5ht2a receptor which is responsible for transmitting serotonin. Serotonin plays a major role in sleep and DMT has just been activating the same receptors that serotonin uses which means an altered firing pattern chained from 5ht2a firing which in turn will cause an altered dream state because the serotonin system plays an important role in dreams. This occurs until synaptic plasticity takes care of it over a few nights time. The less it fires in the same pattern the more it will revert back to the previous structure.

Most people frequently experience altered dream states after a DMT experience lasting anywhere for one night up to a week. Some people have even reported dreaming as if they were in a breakthrough and waking up feeling like they are tripping hard. I have woken up in the middle of the night with visuals and find pure DMT disrupts my sleeping patterns the same night while ayahuasca has the harmalas to sooth things and makes sleep more enjoyable.

This disruption could be caused by over-stimulation of serotonin receptors from the DMT experience because "In effect, neurons with serotonin receptors are active during all stages of sleep until REM, so they appear to act as a "REM inhibitor" most of the time" (Sleep Research Online, 1999). So because the receptors are firing so strongly, they are inhibiting my brain from entering REM sleep. I find the same thing occurs from catecholamines like dopamine, norepinephrine which the MAOI creates in abundance as a result of not eating them all up.

How Does Serotonin Affect Sleep? | Livestrong.com

Serotonin is one of the most important brain chemicals, or neurotransmitters, for regulating the sleep/wake cycle. Diets high in the amino acid tryptophan can maintain healthy serotonin levels, but lifestyle choices like constant travel and an erratic sleep schedule can disrupt serotonin production.

www.livestrong.com

Serotonin and the sleep/wake cycle: special emphasis on microdialysis studies - PubMed

Several areas in the brainstem and forebrain are important for the modulation and expression of the sleep/wake cycle. Even if the first observations of biochemical events in relation to sleep were made only 40 years ago, it is now well established that several neurotransmitters, neuropeptides...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Sabnock1990]

There's also the Acetylcholinesterase inhibition from the Harmalas, which do increase dream activity and vividness, as well as prolonging REM sleep. DMT also seems to increase dream activity, like fathomlessness was saying. There's even been times i've taken Aya and had dreams come back to me through memory that i forgot i've had in my life. I've also experienced DMT in a dream one night, like breaking through and then i woke up shocked/surprised that i had that happen.

 

[fathomlessness]

I've also experienced DMT in a dream one night, like breaking through and then i woke up shocked/surprised that i had that happen.

That is something that not everyone would feel comfortable with. It is fine to take a drug and come back to baseline, but once people start realizing their mind is tripping without anything causing it... that is when anxiety starts to happen "am I going to go insane?" "Will I breakthrough on the motorway this morning? omg!"

 

[Sabnock1990]

I've also experienced DMT in a dream one night, like breaking through and then i woke up shocked/surprised that i had that happen.

That is something that not everyone would feel comfortable with. It is fine to take a drug and come back to baseline, but once people start realizing their mind is tripping without anything causing it... that is when anxiety starts to happen "am I going to go insane?" "Will I breakthrough on the motorway this morning? omg!"

Well i didn't know it could happen till it happened, but why have anxiety? DMT is endogenous to the body so it's only natural to think/assume that it could be released on certain occasions, and it wouldn't last long because of MAO-A which would gobble it up, as well as other possible routes of metabolization. But the breaking through in my dream, i don't think it was like a break through in the sense of smoked DMT. What i experienced was bright colors, patterns, kaleidoscopic type imagery along with some of the DMT sensations and then i woke up. It probably lasted for only like 20 to 30 seconds or so before i woke up.

I've also had two precognitive visions in my life, one was in a dream when i was 17 (years before trying any Psychedelic) and the other while on Acacia Confusa, Rue and Lemon Balm. And both visions seemed to come from the same space/source/in the same way except the one on Acacia/Rue/Lemon Balm was much clearer and more detailed/specific. Both visions came true btw. So i can only assume DMT had some role to play in both visions.

 

[fathomlessness]

DMT is endogenous to the body so it's only natural to think/assume that it could be released on certain occasions, and it wouldn't last long because of MAO-A which would gobble it up,

DMT exists in very minute quantities in the body and brain. Even if you MAOI'd yourself to high heaven your body could never create an endogenous dump that you could feel. There simply isn't enough.

Under no circumstances can you therefor conclude that it is "natural" to assume it would be released on certain occasions. It is quite impossible.

So i can only assume DMT had some role to play in both visions.

It isn't safe to assume that, there is no evidence for it.

What is definitely more like to be the case and could be prove at least to some degree is the de/re-activation of certain areas in the brain that gives rise to psychedelic experiences. For instance the Anterior Cingulate Cortex is known to be associated as the main area of interest within DMT fMRI studies. This switched off with a coupling of some stimulation in your visual cortex could provide you with such an experience as the one you had but it is absurd to say endogenuous DMT caused it.

 

[Sabnock1990]

You obviously haven't dug deep enough my friend.

"DMT exists in very minute quantities in the body and brain. Even if you MAOI'd yourself to high heaven your body could never create an endogenous dump that you could feel. There simply isn't enough."

DMT is in the body in trace amounts, until the body is given the proper stimuli for larger amounts to be released. Similar to Adrenaline, you don't go about your day feeling a ton of Adrenaline, but if you find yourself in a situation where the body needs to release Adrenaline, it'll release Adrenaline. Sure there's not scientific evidence of DMT and it's roles in the Human body, but to assume the body can't release some DMT when the conditions are right, is imo a bit stupid. Imo DMT can very well be released during certain conditions, it may be rare, it may be spontaneous, but it can happen.

"What is definitely more like to be the case and could be prove at least to some degree is the de/re-activation of certain areas in the brain that gives rise to psychedelic experiences."

Possibly, but the visions definitely came from the same source/place. Whether it was from DMT or certain areas of the brain DMT and other stuff can activate. But the way the visions came on and how i was able to understand them, were identical, thus, why wouldn't i think DMT was the cause?

 

[fathomlessness]

DMT is in the body in trace amounts, until the body is given the proper stimuli for larger amounts to be released. Similar to Adrenaline, you don't go about your day feeling a ton of Adrenaline, but if you find yourself in a situation where the body needs to release Adrenaline, it'll release Adrenaline. Sure there's not scientific evidence of DMT and it's roles in the Human body, but to assume the body can't release some DMT when the conditions are right, is imo a bit stupid. Imo DMT can very well be released during certain conditions, it may be rare, it may be spontaneous, but it can happen.

Do you have any proof whatsoever of this? ...

Sure there's not scientific evidence of DMT and it's roles in the Human body, but to assume the body can't release some DMT when the conditions are right, is imo a bit stupid.

Likewise, there's no scientific evidence of the body BEING ABLE to release DMT when the conditions are right, so to think it is possible is imo a bit stupid. Not to mention that even if it were to be proven to be true (which it hasn't) your MAO would be eating up ALL the endogenously released DMT straight away before you even felt anything!

 

[fathomlessness]

BTW, I thoroughly suggest you read through these threads linked from the FAQ

Endogenous DMT: Facts and Fiction - Collaborative Research Project - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Zero proof DMT is made in your head. - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

If DMT would be a neurotransmitter. - Science - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

It is literally impossible for DMT to be felt endogenously without an MAOI. It makes no sense to advocate that DMT is responsible for natural trip states or spiritual experiences not brought on by psychedelics primarily because it is virtually impossible to do so!

 

[Sabnock1990]

Whatever you say man. You have your opinions, i have mine.

 

[Algestaltzovisions]

Well, you may not like to hear it but this can't be explained by science. It isn't always "the plant spirits" that make you dream hard.

Assuming you said "can be explained by science" I prefer a scientific explanation over a spiritual one any day. A spiritual explanation seems to come useful to me during experiences of great personal nature where I use the spiritual aspect to promote personal growth/healing. Like the spiritual meaning of the dream that I had that triggered this post. Which leads me to...

There's even been times i've taken Aya and had dreams come back to me through memory that i forgot i've had in my life.

It's funny you say this cuase the dream I had included two people whom I completely forgot of their existence for at least a decade until the dream. Their role in my life was minimal but their significance and meaning in the dream especially two unrelated people together in the same scene demonstrated a powerful underlining message to me which I will not discuss cuase it's a little off topic and personal and probably boring. Point being there was strong signals being sent from my subconscious. Which nonetheless can be explained through psychology.



Anyways thank you fathomless and stamen for shedding a little scientific light on my question.

PS. I did not have vivid dreams the following night. It seems I bounce back pretty quickly. Which is a shame because I live for my dreams. No pun intended. But i do try to integrate my dreams as much as possible. Hopefully as my relationship grows with aya my dreams will grow alongside her.

 

[fathomlessness]

Well, you may not like to hear it but this can't be explained by science. It isn't always "the plant spirits" that make you dream hard.

Assuming you said "can be explained by science" I prefer a scientific explanation over a spiritual one any day. A spiritual explanation seems to come useful to me during experiences of great personal nature where I use the spiritual aspect to promote personal growth/healing. Like the spiritual meaning of the dream that I had that triggered this post. Which leads me to...

Sorry I meant CAN be explained by science. I agree with you

 

[fathomlessness]

Whatever you say man. You have your opinions, i have mine.

Unfortunately mate, opinion won't invent the car, the TV, send men to space or even figure out how to extract DMT. You know what does? Science. Facts.

And your "opinions" about endogenous DMT being the cause of peoples random spiritual experiences are completely unfounded and therefor irrational. It is PROVEN to be false, no ifs or buts.

What you are saying is like saying the earth is flat, or that there isn't more than 7 billion people on earth.

If you want to argue against fundamental scientific facts WITHOUT any evidence then quite clearly there is something you missed...

However if you wish to argue that the interpenetration of the facts is not quite accurate and provided some reasoning behind, then that would be acceptable, however this is not what you are doing.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Lol, fathomlessness, you have quite the ego. Just like the folks on the fb Ayahuasca group, Mr. Know-It-All

 

[fathomlessness]

Lol, fathomlessness, you have quite the ego. Just like the folks on the fb Ayahuasca group, Mr. Know-It-All

Haha I know mate, it really is quite ridiculous. But most if not all people I have encountered share the same attribute if you bring up a topic that they care about. They are stubborn and constantly want to get their point across without re-analyzing their own POV from the info the other party has given.

Anyway, what grinded me up about your post is that you were trying to say that this is a matter of opinion. It isn't, it is a matter of proven fact and your opinions on the matter are worthless to everyone else but yourself.

:thumb_up: