Ayahuasca vs mushrooms

[Sacred Journey]

Greetings.

First of all I want to say I am overjoyed to be a member here at your folks's wonderful forum. I am a long time shroomery member and while I love the shroomery I often feel like the there is a lot of immaturity and low quality discussion going on over there. That is why I am so glad to have found a place like this where the focus seems to be on intelligent discussion of sacred plants and mushrooms.

Now I am someone who has struggled with a lot of psychological issues, lots of trauma and things like that and I am interested in using sacred plants and mushrooms for healing and spiritual attunement. I believe God placed these herbs on the planet to help us heal and release blockages that can be very difficult to release without the aid of God's magic plants.

I have smoked DMT a few times recently and broken through. During my breakthroughs incredible avenues for healing were opened up for me. It was like I was accessing reality on some sort of meta levels, where I could push levers and change my physical experience.

However, I was troubled deeply by the short duration. I felt like smoking DMT just doesn't give me enough time to do very much, so what I really want to do is try ayahuasca.

But right now I just want to ask what you guys think is the difference between ayahuasca and psilocybin mushrooms? I believe mushrooms have the power to help us heal also, but somehow the DMT felt better at that. Would you guys agree that ayahuasca is a much more powerful healer than the great sacred mushroom and if so, why is this?

Also, do you guys have any tips or books or articles on how best to use ayahuasca for healing? So far my basic methodology is take drug, see what happens, see if any healing can be done with that.

But more recently I have tried to direct my trips further using shamanic music. I have a couple of incredible thearapeutic experiences combining San Pedro cactus tea with native american peyote music. The music helped me to get in touch with spirits which showed me what I needed to do.

 

[marz]

I find that mushrooms are alot more special thean dmt are aya that might be just me but i do find mushrooms stronger not the initial effects like on set but just as good are better thean dmt.

 

[○]

I find that mushrooms are alot more special thean dmt are aya that might be just me but i do find mushrooms stronger not the initial effects like on set but just as good are better thean dmt.

You've got me curious, what do you mean when you say 'special' in regards to mushrooms versus DMT/aya/analogues? Can you give a little bit of description?

'stronger not the initial effects like on set' What does this mean? Would you be able to make yourself a little more clear?

What do you find that makes mushrooms better than DMT/etc?

Just wanted this to be a little more clear for the OP so that there can be a solid distinction and meaningful discussion.


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For me anymore, mushrooms offer a very similar/the same space. Both mushrooms and various oral DMT preparations offer varying afterglows, each unique though ime. There seems to be more of a dialogue with mushrooms though, more of a reciprocation, more alien-esque in it's approach; whereas aya and the various analogue brews seem to be more 'one sided' in their dialogue - more of a 'sit back, get floored, interpret, watch'.


Then again, i've never taken huge doses of mushrooms, so im not sure how higher dosages ime would compare. Most i've ever taken was 4g, which was when i first started working with them many years back when my sensitivity was much lower than what it is now. Now, 2.5g and im glued to the ground/bed/etc for quite awhile, although still different. Could be the caapi with aya and the analogues that marks the difference in effects? Many variables. It's really tough to say tbh, and typing this might have been a waste.

Id personally work with both in a varying cycle - periods of mushrooms taking, break, followed by periods of working with different oral preps. Maybe settle on one from that point on, or continue working with both?

 

[jamie]

I find that mushrooms are alot more special thean dmt are aya that might be just me but i do find mushrooms stronger not the initial effects like on set but just as good are better thean dmt.

I resonate with this as well, but I have a lot more to say on the topic...shortly.

"Would you guys agree that ayahuasca is a much more powerful healer than the great sacred mushroom"

No, definitely not for me. When I really need that thorough deep healing, mushrooms are top of the list.

 

[modernshamanism]

In my experience:

Psilocybe Mushrooms (alone) - static, but "often out of Earth" experience, weird visions of other planets, insects, less control over the trip.

Rue + Psilocybe Mushrooms - more dynamic experience, but more connected to Earth, snakes and reptiles instead of insects. Control over the trip is very difficult.

Ayahuasca (and analogues) - everything is in constant movement, dynamic, head is full of thoughts coming back in cycles. Very often one can separate "topics" and try to go through them bit by bit (but not one by one, more like A, B, C, A, B, C, A, C, B ...). Much more control of trip (if it starts to be overwhelming - simply ask to slow down and enjoy slower ride after 30 seconds). Visions of jungle and big cats.

Ayahuasca is more difficult for my guts, than shrooms. I'm always taking extra iMAO after peak to make experience last longer - with mushrooms it just prolongs the effects (no second peak), but with Ayahuasca I'm usually getting second peak (around 80% of the original peak power, but much shorter).

I get mushrooms tolerance faster and one week between experiences is must be. I think with Ayahuasca 1-2 days is enough to reset (but I'm not sure if I ever took second dose of Aya the same week, I simply don't remember). The same dosage of mushrooms after 5 days seems to be weaker, but 7 days is perfect.

I feel more connected to Ayahusca, or maybe Ayahuasca make me connect to myself more. On Psylocybin I feel more like astronaut.

On both I feel like Charles Lindberg:
"(...)Whether outwardly or inwardly, whether in space or in time, the farther we penetrate the unknown, the vaster and more marvelous it becomes. Only in the twentieth century do we realize that space is not empty, that it is packed with energy; it may be existence's source. Then, if space has produced existence and the form of man, can we deduce from it a form for God?"

 

[jamie]

Steve Beyer once described mushrooms as more entheogenic, while ayahuasca is more visual..while I dont find ayahuasca any more visual or visionary(actually pretty much nothing matched the visions of mushrooms for me at the right dose), I do understand what he means about mushrooms being more entheogenic.

I don't like all this comparing however..which is why I choose to talk about the fact that for me, DMT and ayahuasca are not the be all end all of psychedelics as pop psych culture often claims. I don't find DMT stronger than psilocybin, and mg for mg, psilocybin is by far the more potent of the two. People often describe 5meoDMT as soo much stronger because the dose is 5-10x less than for DMT, but neglect to mention that the same is true of psilocybin.

Psilocybin can take one just as deep as DMT...but I find that within psilocybin there is an extremely rich, living and animate dialogue that takes place on a deeper level than DMT usually takes me.

Personally, I find that with psilocybin there is a profound spiritual aspect that, while DMT comes close, nothing else other than 5-MeO-DMT really fully hits for me. 5-MeO-DMT and psilocybin are for myself, more similar than 5-MeO-DMT and DMT(though DMT and psilocybin are very similar) are, aside from the obvious fact that both can be smoked at a high dose for a short trip. That said.. all 3 are for me, very similar and seem to operate on the same bandwidth.

If I had to choose one, I would choose psilocybin, because for myself it is an entheogenic sacrament par excellence..but I really love all 3..psilocybin, DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. Psilocybin takes me right into the core of my soul and illuminates me, every time. It takes me to the stars and shows me how I am stars incarnated..it takes me to the cosmos to show me that I contain the cosmos within.

When you add rue or vine to mushrooms, well..it's pretty far out.

 

[jamie]

Here is the Steve Beyer article

An Experiential Typology of Sacred Plants | Singing to the Plants

I want to think about three sacred plants — the ayahuasca drink, the peyote cactus, and the teonanácatl mushroom. These plants — well, actually, one of them is a fungus — are often discussed in terms of their — dimethyltryptamine, mescaline, and psilocybin respectively. Sacred plants such as...

www.singingtotheplants.com

 

[FLeP]

I have to say I find mushrooms to be a more powerful healer at this point. I have only had 2 pharmahuasca experiences and a handful of changa experiences that were very similar to pharma. These experiences have opened up a beautiful page in my life but have not had much of a healing effect. When I take mushrooms there is a very palpable healing effect. My brain shines and a jackpot like ringing can almost be heard as old, dusty synampses fire back to life. The purples, pinks and blues flashing behind my eyelids seem to be visual evidence of this healing. That said, I wonder if aya is just a different kind of healing that I haven't come to understand yet.

 

[Sacred Journey]

Thanks for the replies, this makes me happy because I like to grow mushrooms. I have had some very healing trips with mushrooms but my last trip was kind of disapointing in that regard, and having read so much about the power of aya I just assumed it was a much better healer.

After reading this thread, my interest in working with mushrooms is renewed.

Do you guys think different classes of psychedelic heal different aspects of our being? For example, in addition to psilocybin mushrooms, I have also been experimenting with San Pedro cactus and Aminita Muscaria. I won't go into what Aminita does for me in this thread but in regards to San Pedro my experience seems to be that San Pedro seems to work on putting my body and mind into balance. It opens my heart and gives me emotional healing while pushing my mind in a very positive direction. I would say it works on the level of heart and mind and for me the experience seems filled with light.

Now mushrooms and DMT on the other hand, seem to work more on the level of my soul. I find that mushrooms seem to do a much better job of waking up dusty synapses ( to borrow FLeP's term) than San Pedro. Mushrooms also seem more versatile in a sense and the experience contains both darkness and light.

The reason I like comparing is because I find that trying to understand the difference between the different entheogens reveals something about how the human being is made. For instance, I don't think I understood the difference between the mind and the soul as well until after comparing mushrooms with San Pedro.

Do you guys have any special rituals or techniques to bring out the healing effects of psychedelics? With San Pedro, I have been listening to native american peyote music and I find the music takes me on a journey and fills with me with some sort of spiritual energy.

Mushrooms on the other hand, I find myself more inclined to spending time sitting quietly in nature. Is there healing music that goes with mushrooms? I am just trying to figure out how to best use these substances because my intuition tells me they are sacred and powerful healers but I feel like I don't always know how to make use of their effects. My method of just taking them and hoping for the best seems like it might be able to be improved upon, as I feel that discovering the peyote healing music was a a big improvement for me. I felt like the native americans understood how to use mescaline to heal themselves and that came across in their music.

 

[tseuq]

For me, mushrooms, N,N-DMT Freebase, san pedro, LSD, zen,.. are different techniques which raise my awareness. They open my inner space and come along with different add-ons.
I experience...
+ N,N-DMT as the most visually active lifeform
+ similar LSD, but with a different kind of the visuals, more sterile
+ mescaline enhances strong visions and is also visually active plus its entactogen component
+ psilocybin/psilocin is most psychedelic, bizarre, uncompromising

They all focus me on myself, open my inner self (in case my inner self is buried under strange rules, believes, ideas) and add their specific character to my human experience. I don't compare these lifeforms in a way of "robot thinking", like performance in a way of good/bad, because I am, it is always me.

I am love and respect, tseuq

 

[ganesh]

The reason I like comparing is because I find that trying to understand the difference between the different entheogens reveals something about how the human being is made. For instance, I don't think I understood the difference between the mind and the soul as well until after comparing mushrooms with San Pedro.

Mmmm....Looks like that kind of research is another topic.

Personally i think you need to find all this comparison stuff out for yourself. There are similarities but also distinct differences. I have read many times that Ayahuasca is an experience that can be controlled by Shamanic techniques, and even used by a Shaman to heal, like undergoing 'psychic surgery'. Fungus on the other hand seems to be uncontrollable, but still healing, but it itself is its own Shaman that scans for illness and remedies it. One grows out of wood/cowshit, the other requires a lot of prep. There is some evidence that fungus played a large part in Peruvian culture with shroom stones, including what appears to be some sort of reiki style hands on healing??

Personally i believe the Spanish have destroyed a lot of old cultural knowledge, and that there are ways of working with these fungals that because of the inquisition, has been lost.

I think when we are talking appropiate dose, set, setting, we can conclude that whilst fungus may not seem to recieve much acclaim, it's probably the single best all in one healing tool, almost designed by nature to be as simple as possible, and almost impossible to die from.

What i'm saying here is but a microcosm of the info out there. You need to research this stuff out. Some people rave about Iboga, asking and reciieving direct answers to questions, but find Ayahuasca poor for giving clearly defined answers to problems. There is a lot more to fungus than you'll ever read as well. Ayahuasca varies a lot depending on the Vine used, and the 'light' plants employed. These are seriously deep topics that require many months of research to properly answer, simply because each Entheogen has so much interesting and different properties that books can be easily written upon each!

 

[Ryusaki]

I feel that the music and the singing itself is a big part of the healing.

It never got clearer for me as when i sat in a ceremony and had one female shipibo sing to me from my left side, and the male curandero sing from the right side. Both in perfect sync.
Once they grabbed my brainfrequency with their resonance, they played me like a fiddle.
No actually they finetuned the instrument.

My advice regarding music: seek out the music of the shamans/mystics of all cultures. Start with indigeous people who facilitate sacred medicine. Most of is perfect for shroom sessions.

Befriend a MAOI master plant.

Combine it with the Shrooms.

 

[ganesh]

I feel that the music and the singing itself is a big part of the healing.

It never got clearer for me as when i sat in a ceremony and had one female shipibo sing to me from my left side, and the male curandero sing from the right side. Both in perfect sync.
Once they grabbed my brainfrequency with their resonance, they played me like a fiddle.
No actually they finetuned the instrument.

Mmmm...That's Ayahuasca you're talking about, and Shamans learn icaros from dieting plants, in fact they spend years learning about how to 'work' with Ayahuasca. This isn't something a few trips will teach.

Adding fungus is just adjusting the 'light' source, from the traditional admix.

This thread is starting to go off on a tangent!

 

[FLeP]

Sacred Journey, regarding the best ways to benefit from the healing: I feel that finding a place to relax and let the experience overwhelm you completely, free of judgements, is the best way to gain the full healing benefits of mushrooms. For me, this is is always my bed. Sounds lame but it always works for me, best in complete darkness. Music is optional. I usually find that there is such a flow of information in my brain that I do not need outside accompaniment. It's easier for effects like glossolalia to present in an environment like this as well.

 

[travsha]

I used to work with DMT a lot, but stopped because while it was fun, I found it less insightful or healing then the other plants and substances I worked with....

I work a lot with mushrooms and Ayahuasca right now (San Pedro is my favorite though). I wouldnt say one is better then the other, but they are both very different.

With mushrooms I prefer a dose around 4-6 grams, and they can be great in dark/silence or out in nature. With mushrooms I sometimes experience the sky and the earth opening up and talking directly to the Sky and Earth (or the spirit behind the sky and the earth is more what it feels like). Feels like talking to God.... They are pretty easy to work with - not too much body load and the experience is easy to follow and understand usually. Sometimes they can get a bit weird or dark, but I think that comes with the territory and sometimes can be very insightful....

Ayahuasca is a bit harder to work with and has a sharper learning curve. I also personally find the wisdom and healing comes mostly from the vine, and the added DMT is optional and is more like fuel to go deeper with the Ayahuasca. With Ayahausca there is more cleaning at first, and after a bunch of ceremonies that eventually changes to more learning type things.... The cleaning is probably more important, as much as the learning is more enjoyable.... With Ayahuasca there is this really deep aspect of meeting and getting to know all these different plants, different spirits, different songs and cultures ect.... It is the most immersive experience for me - sometimes it just takes you someplace else, and it has an incredible and impressive power that you cannot resist if you wanted to.... When she wants to be, she is definitely in charge!

I havent tried mixing Ayahuasca with mushrooms but a number of people have told me that is the only way they drink Ayahuasca after trying it.... I'll probably try this at some point, but feel like I already have my hands full with the traditional brew and I dont need to mess with a good thing yet...

I would say maybe try working with both and see what calls you most. Start with whatever one is more easily available in the type of setting you want. If you drink Ayahuasca with a healer facilitating the ceremony - be picky and drink with someone very experienced. Group ceremonies are not like solo ones and a bad facilitator can really mess the group up in some very unpleasant ways. A good facilitator will create the most beautiful and magical ceremony for you with their songs - something you cant understand or imagine until you experience it!

 

[travsha]

As far as rituals or techniques..... Pray when you consume and pray during the peak of your experience. Crazy stuff can happen when you combine prayer and plant medicines.

Pay attention to the setting - I prefer either in the wilderness or in a dark and silent room. Otherwise you just distract yourself too much - you can get more from the experience by doing less and focusing more. Listening is easier when you are quiet and still! Only drink with people trying to have a similar type day to you, or drink alone - drinking with the wrong person will completely distract you from the experience.

Alternate times of silence with times of music. If you feel ready to try, make your own music. Sing, beat a drum, or even just do a mantra - whatever! If you dont feel able to make your own music, then choose a little music wisely to play and alternate that with times of silence.

Write down things if you need to - a journal can be helpful sometimes.

Aromatherapy can be powerful with plant medicines - can be sage or palo santo, or can be essential oils.... Your limbic brain is associated with your sense of smell and is also where people hold memories, emotions and trauma - so scent can help you work with these things.

If you get uncomfortable during ceremony - explore that! This is how you find the deeper healing and insight sometimes - by being curious about emotional pain, physical pain, headache sore muscles ect.... Start talking to your body or your heart or the plants you are working with and try to ask them why you have that pain and how to let go of it or heal it.

With Ayahusca especially, but also with any plant - dieting or fasting can make for a deeper experience. You can do a lot here.

 

[jamie]

"I havent tried mixing Ayahuasca with mushrooms but a number of people have told me that is the only way they drink Ayahuasca after trying it"

I would not say it's the only way, but it is the only way I have used rue in the last half a year or so. I have not really tested out full doses of rue or vine with mushrooms, mostly because it feels so damn powerful..more than with DMT...and the dialogue seems deeper, more alive and animate with the mushrooms present. Mostly I have just experimented with a gram of so of rue and throwing in a couple aborts, and spending a few hours doing yoga or laying on my bed. It's impressive and I have been reluctant to start throwing in phalaris extracts on top of that but I plan to once I figure out what each strain is actually doing.

Another thing here is that not all DMT plants are equal..my jar of acuminata phyllodes is growing larger and larger and my tree is getting larger..so I look foreward to trying that out.

I will say that I would prefer DMT to be in ratio with a bit of 5-MeO-DMT. The 5-MeO-DMT helps open it up IME to something a bit more mystical, empathic and full..this is why I love psilocybin so much..it contains everything I like in DMT, but has this added push towards these other aspects, for me.

 

[Global]

People often describe 5meoDMT as soo much stronger because the dose is 5-10x less than for DMT, but neglect to mention that the same is true of psilocybin.

The reason I feel that 5-MeO is so much stronger is not because it is stronger at the lower dose range (which is true), but because those experiences pack such an ungodly amount of power and intensity that seems to be unrivaled. It comes on so incredibly quickly that it can be overwhelming within seconds of inhalation. I personally do not find 5-MeO to resemble the effects of psilocybin much at all. 5-MeO is very touch oriented in a way that I have never found mushrooms to be. I feel that much more psychonauts would be prepared for a high dose mushroom experience than a low dose 5-MeO experience. 5-MeO is not something I recommend lightly.

 

[Sacred Journey]

Thanks for all the information guys. I am extremely impressed with the knowledge and wisdom on this website.

If you don't mind I would just like to post some thoughts/questions and if anyone has any comments go ahead.

San Pedro is my favorite too, but I love mushrooms very much also. To me, mushrooms feel more "magical" both literally and figuratively as in I feel like more impossible things seem possible on mushrooms vs Pedro.

I am curious if you guys know how often native american or south american shaman use cactus? I was thinking about alternating between cactus and mushrooms taking one each weekend for a while. I am coming off a two year period where I used no psychedelics because I felt like I had gotten the message and needed to hang up the phone. For me at the time when I stopped, the message was that I needed to live a more spiritual life instead of living to chase material pleasures. After two years of trying to do this, I found some old mushrooms in a drawer and ended up eating some. This time the trip was totally different, because I was much more open to the lessons and I felt like I benefited a lot more and in more specific ways vs a general "be more spiritual" type message I actually felt like specific parts of my brain were receiving healing.

I think I tend to second guess myself a lot, like for instance I will question whether it is better to space out my trips a lot to preserve the magic or to trip often (once a week with some weeks off) to help me grow accustomed to being in that state.

I try to always remember to pray before my trips but I have had mixed results prayign while tripping. I will generally feel like I cannot focus on prayer when I am tripping because there is too much going on and prayer often feels like a strange/meaningless thing to do. One time I was praying to Jesus on San Pedro and my visuals collected themselves together in front of me and shaped themselvers into an image of Jesus Christ and then a beam of light shot from Jesus's heart into my heart and I felt light energy trying to flow throughout my body but encountering all sorts of blockages. I really wasn't sure what to make of that experience.

 

[travsha]

I am curious if you guys know how often native american or south american shaman use cactus?

Depends.... I know my good friend Lesley had a 2.5 year apprenticeship in Peru where she had to drink large doses of cactus with her teacher at least twice a week.... That was just the apprenticeship (she had drunk plenty before committing to apprenticeship and has drank plenty afterwards).

When I stay with her in Peru now I rarely see her drink with people, but she has been doing ceremony with cactus since the early 90's.... She only drinks with more serious clients usually.

Traditionally San Pedro is mostly centered in Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia and wasnt very popular elsewhere because it only grows in Peru/Ecuador naturally (all other ones were brought over by people from Peru/Ecuador).

As for how much you should drink.... Very personal and different for each person. A lot of it depends on your intention.... You might have to figure that out on your own...

You feel like prayer is a waste after it brought Jesus to heal you with a light beam? Sounds pretty cool to me....