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ayauasca breakthrough

Migrated topic.
Its not as easy as saying "one needs so much to breakthrough".

Everyone has different metabolism and different tollerance. You need to start low with Aya dosage and work your way up.
 
Ok. I was under the impression that to break through one needed to smoke the DMT or do it intravenesly like the Straussman experiments. I wasn't sure if one could get enough DMT in their system via ayauasca for the same effect.
 
Definitely you can breakthrough on Ayahuasca, and it can be a lot more introspective and scary than smoked spice, if not just because it will take much longer at its peak. In my experience it may be difficult if you dose just once. After 1:30-2:00 after initially dosing if you take another shot of the Medicine there are good chances that you will breakthrough. Dosage and one's metabolism will generally be key factors for success.

One important thing. If you are aiming for a breakthrough on Ayahuasca, no matter how experienced you may be with smoked spice, see if you can get a sitter as many things can go out of control and put you and possibly others in dangerous situations
 
Elf Machine said:
Ok. I was under the impression that to break through one needed to smoke the DMT or do it intravenesly like the Straussman experiments. I wasn't sure if one could get enough DMT in their system via ayauasca for the same effect.
Click to expand...

There is no "magic switch" amount.....sometimes it just takes time, you have to really "work" with Ayahuasca, it is absolutely not a party!!
Although it can be beautiful, most people have plenty of inner-cleaning to do before that can even be handled. We pick up tons of useless, damaging cargo over the course of our lives, Ayahuasca helps you to sort through the shit & understand who you are & why. This can be an enormously emotionally draining thing & doesn't happen over night...or in one session!
Kind of like the old go through hell before you get to heaven thing....

Ayahuasca is a very different experience, the Harmalas in the Cappi vine are psychoactive on their own, so Aya is not just DMT that you drink!!

BTW, there is never any guarantee that you will have a full on breakthrough with smoking either.
If fact, it is much easier to burn it, not smoke enough, or fast enough, etc...
You'll probably get a heavy, psychedelic experience that comes on faster, more lucid & feels more real than any other before.
...but that is not a breakthrough...

Seems to me that with the flood of easy info about DMT & extracting on the internet & people seeing it & using it as more of a fast & easy "LSD-type trip", I see a lot of people are starting to refer to DMT's basic psychedelic effects as a breakthrough now.
Moving geometric patterns with vivid colors & beautiful, expansive alien landscapes are not what most "old school" (damn, there's an old school now too...) DMT users would call a breakthrough.

These things are wonderful & amazing in their own right, but a breakthrough goes light years beyond that!!!
A breakthrough will leave most people in tears, shivering in awe at the raw power there is available out there & inside you. You've merge with everything, just humming & grinding reality, geometry & color are just an insignificant skin!

I just read a lot of posts where that kind of level has not been reached, or even scratched at yet, but the word "breakthrough" is being thrown around non-the-less.


Do some reading, take your time!


WS
 
I am interested in hearing the dosages that were required for others to achieve an Ayahuasca breakthrough.
If you can also give a bit of information on bodyweight, and sensitivity to psychedelics I would appreciate it very much!:)
 
Hello!

I just wanted to throw in another perspective on breaking through. I've always considered breakthroughs to be when your mind stops focusing on the action or destination (drinking aya/smoking spice) and all of sudden you are in the experience. You've forgotten there was a loaded GVG in front of you or that you were drinking your brew. Instead of focusing on these things, you are inside the experience...whatever that may be as you can only receive as much information as you are ready for at that time.

While I agree with WSaged that "Moving geometric patterns with vivid colors & beautiful, expansive alien landscapes" are not always breakthroughs. I do have to disagree with the breakthrough term being applied to only spiritual/enlightening experiences. Sure those are the breakthroughs we want, but they will come in time...When you are ready to download the light (and typically when you least expect it!).

But sometimes, hyperspace is just absurd and fun! For example, the other night my buddy and I took our first voyage after a period of integration. He was ready for more enlightenment via hyperspace and adjusted his meditation as such; we were very serious. My breakthrough was lucid like dream where 2 entities grabbed me around the shoulders as friends do and whispered a very funny joke at light speed. I woke up laughing in my living room with a half burnt changa joint (I forgotten I was smoking!). My friend looked at me and said, "Dude...this time in hyperspace...I'll I saw was shopping carts...and they were just going in and out of the door..." I just looked at him and started laughing so hard. Best laugh we've had in a while. And I felt that the spice was reminded us that sometimes all you need is a good laugh.

But for now, I would suggest that you take every experience with love and gratitude and without an agenda.

thankyou
 
Electric.Sight said:
I am interested in hearing the dosages that were required for others to achieve an Ayahuasca breakthrough.
If you can also give a bit of information on bodyweight, and sensitivity to psychedelics I would appreciate it very much!:)
Click to expand...

in the ayahuasca room read the sticky "all about ayahuasca" by ms.manicminxx its awesome and can answer most of your dosing questions. in a nut shell avg cappi doses are between 50g-150g and i know at least 2 people here who take up to 200g. admixtures all vary depending on type and individual's physiology and likes. do you know the basic components of ayahuasca? they are caapi and the admixture. admixtures are where the dmt is and each different admixture (there are many) has its own flavor.

like others are saying its not a one size fits all thing and tolerances of smoked dmt or other substances dont necessarily mean much in regards to ayahuasca. to be safe you just need to read and learn at very least the basics and start a gradual relationship.
im still just drinking caapi only brews and its wonderful!!!! although i am excited like a fat kid eating cake to start adding the dmt i am for once truly enjoying every step of this journey and not just focusing on the destination. in this case that would be a full aya break through. all in good time.

seriosly read the thread it is very good. :)
 
KwisatzHaderach said:
Hello!While I agree with WSaged that "Moving geometric patterns with vivid colors & beautiful, expansive alien landscapes" are not always breakthroughs. I do have to disagree with the breakthrough term being applied to only spiritual/enlightening experiences. Sure those are the breakthroughs we want, but they will come in time...When you are ready to download the light (and typically when you least expect it!).

But sometimes, hyperspace is just absurd and fun! For example, the other night my buddy and I took our first voyage after a period of integration. He was ready for more enlightenment via hyperspace and adjusted his meditation as such; we were very serious. My breakthrough was lucid like dream where 2 entities grabbed me around the shoulders as friends do and whispered a very funny joke at light speed. I woke up laughing in my living room with a half burnt changa joint (I forgotten I was smoking!). My friend looked at me and said, "Dude...this time in hyperspace...I'll I saw was shopping carts...and they were just going in and out of the door..." I just looked at him and started laughing so hard. Best laugh we've had in a while. And I felt that the spice was reminded us that sometimes all you need is a good laugh.
Click to expand...

Well unfortunately, I guess that's exactly what I'm talking about...:?

That is certainly a heavy psychedelic experience....but.
The term "breakthrough" as I've know it over the years, has referred to "breaking through" all of that & going beyond, into something 100% unexplainable!!
"Spiritual/enlightening" or not!
With Smoked DMT, it's usually way to fast & enveloping & alien to understand anything, at least for a few days (or more) after the fact.

More common are the geometry, colorful patterns & fun loving energy..."breaking through" all of that, is replacing everything you recognize as normal sensory input or recognizable objects/entities, from physical memory!!
Whats it's replaced with is fairly random, but it is everything, from sensory input, to thought, to lack of any memory that there is even a you, to experience this.
What I've known as a actual breakthrough, doesn't happen every time & relies on much more than just how much you've smoked.
At the same time, I personally do not smoke DMT aiming for anything in particular.
I've had so many more sub-breakthroughs than full-on ones & they are always amazing & can be just as meaningful, but are just not nearly the same thing, as getting through to whatever that is, that you get through to!


Lets not cheapen this....?


WS
 
WSaged said:
Elf Machine said:
Ok. I was under the impression that to break through one needed to smoke the DMT or do it intravenesly like the Straussman experiments. I wasn't sure if one could get enough DMT in their system via ayauasca for the same effect.
Click to expand...

There is no "magic switch" amount.....sometimes it just takes time, you have to really "work" with Ayahuasca, it is absolutely not a party!!
Although it can be beautiful, most people have plenty of inner-cleaning to do before that can even be handled. We pick up tons of useless, damaging cargo over the course of our lives, Ayahuasca helps you to sort through the shit & understand who you are & why. This can be an enormously emotionally draining thing & doesn't happen over night...or in one session!
Kind of like the old go through hell before you get to heaven thing....

Ayahuasca is a very different experience, the Harmalas in the Cappi vine are psychoactive on their own, so Aya is not just DMT that you drink!!

BTW, there is never any guarantee that you will have a full on breakthrough with smoking either.
If fact, it is much easier to burn it, not smoke enough, or fast enough, etc...
You'll probably get a heavy, psychedelic experience that comes on faster, more lucid & feels more real than any other before.
...but that is not a breakthrough...

Seems to me that with the flood of easy info about DMT & extracting on the internet & people seeing it & using it as more of a fast & easy "LSD-type trip", I see a lot of people are starting to refer to DMT's basic psychedelic effects as a breakthrough now.
Moving geometric patterns with vivid colors & beautiful, expansive alien landscapes are not what most "old school" (damn, there's an old school now too...) DMT users would call a breakthrough.

These things are wonderful & amazing in their own right, but a breakthrough goes light years beyond that!!!
A breakthrough will leave most people in tears, shivering in awe at the raw power there is available out there & inside you. You've merge with everything, just humming & grinding reality, geometry & color are just an insignificant skin!

I just read a lot of posts where that kind of level has not been reached, or even scratched at yet, but the word "breakthrough" is being thrown around non-the-less.


Do some reading, take your time!


WS
Click to expand...


so if that would be a break through, how would a +4 sound like?
 
WSaged said:
Seems to me that with the flood of easy info about DMT & extracting on the internet & people seeing it & using it as more of a fast & easy "LSD-type trip", I see a lot of people are starting to refer to DMT's basic psychedelic effects as a breakthrough now.
Moving geometric patterns with vivid colors & beautiful, expansive alien landscapes are not what most "old school" (damn, there's an old school now too...) DMT users would call a breakthrough.

These things are wonderful & amazing in their own right, but a breakthrough goes light years beyond that!!!
A breakthrough will leave most people in tears, shivering in awe at the raw power there is available out there & inside you. You've merge with everything, just humming & grinding reality, geometry & color are just an insignificant skin!

I just read a lot of posts where that kind of level has not been reached, or even scratched at yet, but the word "breakthrough" is being thrown around non-the-less.
Click to expand...

Hi friends,

I can't agree with such a statements, although I understand it. In my opinion 'breakthrough' is just a word a weak tool to describe something very profound. It doesn't mean one doesn't experience those, maybe he just can't describe it nicely like others do. I think that anyone who work with this molecule seriously will experience as you call it 'real breakthrough' soon or later. Their own mind breakthrough, very real for them. On the other hand, when someone is left in tears and shivering, other just fart and says "interesting...":d
Is it really important what people call that way? I had 'full breakthrough' into fridge last night after cone joint. Amazing, left me motionless for 2 hours afterwards.
And this 'old school users breakthrough' establishment makes me sad:cry:


No bad feelings please, I just can't agree fully:)

Regards,
 
No, you are wording it very well actually:d

In the realm of potent psychedelics, jumping off the chair could be a hyperspace event:d
I'm joking, I've got your point, I just don't see it so tragically this language thing. It is fun to share experiences here on nexus, whatever they are and DMT will deliver for all of us who try soon or later...8)

Regards,
 
Hi WSaged

WSaged said:
There is no "magic switch" amount.....sometimes it just takes time, you have to really "work" with Ayahuasca, it is absolutely not a party!!
Click to expand...

I agree with most everything on your post, but my experience leads me to different conclusions. As you mention, Ayahuasca is NOT a party, but having a breakthrough with it can be pretty straightforward, in my opinion perhaps "easier" than smoked spice. Easier, in the sense of not being difficult to achieve. The breakthrough experience on Ayahuasca is clearly harder than spice.

As I mentioned in my post the 2 factors are: a) one's metabolism - there are certain people who are just hardheads with DMT no matter how it is taken, and will always just get the visual circus, almost irrespective of the dose; and b) the dosage. As I mentioned, for someone who might be more sensitive to DMT I can prepare a session that will take them to tears with almost certainty. I've done that. It depends on the brew, of course, which is dependent on the amount of harmalas and DMT there. Also, the spacing between doses. I've never seen anyone breakthrough with just one serving (although I admit it may be possible). With the first dose to prepare the mind for what's next, as well as blocking the MAOAs, on the second dose, at this time frame, will catapult most people to THAT OTHER PLACE. If people are ready or not, that's another issue, although it is also my conviction that nothing prepares anyone for a breakthrough, no matter how many approaches one has made with the Medicine.
 
to zubidlo,

no disrespect intended but your statement sounds like its from someone who maybe hasnt ever broken through. im not saying you have not its just i cant imagine ever saying "everything that happens during a trip that is profound is a breakthrough". breaking through is a straight up life changing event. seeing a bunch of sparkles and weird creatures isn't.

there's no way someone would just nod their head and say " hmmm thats interesting" after a full breakthrough. no way. i also dont think everyone will automatically breakthrough just because they use dmt regularly. many many people use poor technique and sub par tools. it doesn't matter if you smoke dmt everyday for a year if your using the same poor method you will get the same mediacore results and have nothing else to compare your journeys to therefor assume you must have broken through.

i agree totaly with the statment that a lot of people that use the word dont have personal experience with the above defined term "breakthrough". its not just a lack of ability to describe the event its a lack of the event and confusion between strong psycedelic experience and the total envelopment of ego death.
just my 2 cents...
 
He's probably just referring to what the Shulgin's used in PiHkal/TiHKal. It's obviously not all encompassing with just the 4, but it was an easy way for them to quickly rate dosages of the compounds.

From Wikipedia:

* PLUS / MINUS (+/-) The level of effectiveness of a drug that indicates a threshold action. If a higher dosage produces a greater response, then the plus/minus (+/-) was valid. If a higher dosage produces nothing, then this was a false positive.

* PLUS ONE (+) The drug is quite certainly active. The chronology can be determined with some accuracy, but the nature of the drug's effects are not yet apparent.

* PLUS TWO (++) Both the chronology and the nature of the action of a drug are unmistakably apparent. But you still have some choice as to whether you will accept the adventure, or rather just continue with your ordinary day's plans (if you are an experienced researcher, that is). The effects can be allowed a predominant role, or they may be repressed and made secondary to other chosen activities.

* PLUS THREE (+++) Not only are the chronology and the nature of a drug's action quite clear, but ignoring its action is no longer an option. The subject is totally engaged in the experience, for better or worse.

* PLUS FOUR (++++) A rare and precious transcendental state, which has been called a 'peak experience', a 'religious experience,' 'divine transformation,' a 'state of Samādhi' and many other names in other cultures. It is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity. It is a state of bliss, a participation mystique, a connectedness with both the interior and exterior universes, which has come about after the ingestion of a psychedelic drug, but which is not necessarily repeatable with a subsequent ingestion of that same drug. If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment.

– Alexander Shulgin, PiHKAL, 1991
Click to expand...
 
so if a +4 is a break through,
it would mean that a no one could consistently break through no matter the dose or method.
it would probably mean we can only break through when the mind allows it. yes/no?
 
Hello!

First, WSaged my apologies but I think we are just arguing over syntax...silly English words used to describe an experience that really is impossible to describe close to accurately to someone who's never had the experience. I think I merely just wanted to reinforce the concept of the journey rather than the destination ("breaking through" being seen as ultimate goal).

And in reference to my anecdote, I meant in no way to "cheapen" anything about the spice. In fact I highly regard my time with the spice and could not imagine approaching it casually. As I said, my attitude was meditative and serious. And although I thought I had appropriately set up myself up for that undeniable breakthrough instead I was presented a funny vision (although I was temporarily removed from my house and current thought processes, as if waking into a dream). By my definition of break through, I considered anything which transported me seamlessly from my familiar setting (i.e. living room) and into another; though it is debatable whether I exist at that point depending on how far it goes (and boy can it go!!!).

Must say that I do enjoy the addition of Shulgin's rating system because I think it gives a better experience pallet rather than the binary terminology of breakthrough/non-breakthrough; though I do understand and enjoy your definition WSaged. But I never noticed this part before:

If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment.
Click to expand...

How intriguing! The end of the human experiment and ultimate evolution. Crazy! This reminds me of something from like Inception where all the people are down in the basement and there's that shaman watching the people hooked up to the sleep machine. And DiCaprio asks him "do they come here to dream?" and the shaman says, "No, they come here to live."

ayahuascan, I would say there there could be a tailored dose per individual that would present the body with the possibility of breakthrough, but it is more dependent on how open our mind and heart is to the experience. That will ultimately allow the fullest possible experience at that moment. Maybe just like how they say the biggest and best sex organ is the mind, no?

thankyou
 

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