Elf Machine
Rising Star
This is really turning into a much more informative thread than I supposed! So ayauasca can be as intense and full as a large dose of smoked DMT?
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ayauasca breakthrough
- Thread starter Elf Machine
- Start date
Elf Machine said:
:lol: yea funny how that happens!
ive havent had a full ayahuasca break through yet but im pretty sure people are going to tell you'
yes but different.
KwisatzHaderach said:
This makes me wonder whether a breakthrough is really another word for the dropping away of the I/NOT-I barrier, which may happen under any circumstances. At present we have no other way to induce this "breakthrough" than by ingesting psychedelic substances, but as psychedelic substances also tend to produce these psychedelic visions in the brain, we learned to associate the breakthrough with the visions (or changes of existential modes), when these are separate effects. A breakthrough may be more like a capability of total immersion in what currently is.
Perhaps the ordinary world with all its seemingly boring phenomena could also be experienced as a fully satisfying whole, if this barrier would go away.
Hi ayahuascan,
what I'm about to say is just my opinion, of course, as knowledge in this area is very sketchy. My belief is that a Shulgin ++++ can only be achieved through a breakthrough, but a breakthrough does not imply a ++++. I have brokenthrough several times, but I'm not positive that I was in a ++++ as Shulgin described it (in that paragraph and elsewhere). A ++++ generally implies a "crossing of the planes" measurable and tangible in this physical world. Inexplicable and improbable coincidences appear, if not during the experience but in the hours and days after. There is a clear transformation of oneself and a shift in perception. In TiHKAL but specially in PiHKAL there are reports of ++++. It's really mind blowing.
Even in 5-MeO-DMT "white outs" I feel I was in a ultra strong +++ but not (yet!) at a ++++!
ayahuascan said:
what I'm about to say is just my opinion, of course, as knowledge in this area is very sketchy. My belief is that a Shulgin ++++ can only be achieved through a breakthrough, but a breakthrough does not imply a ++++. I have brokenthrough several times, but I'm not positive that I was in a ++++ as Shulgin described it (in that paragraph and elsewhere). A ++++ generally implies a "crossing of the planes" measurable and tangible in this physical world. Inexplicable and improbable coincidences appear, if not during the experience but in the hours and days after. There is a clear transformation of oneself and a shift in perception. In TiHKAL but specially in PiHKAL there are reports of ++++. It's really mind blowing.
Even in 5-MeO-DMT "white outs" I feel I was in a ultra strong +++ but not (yet!) at a ++++!
KwisatzHaderach
everything is becoming
I like it all. Reminds me of Jim...always pushing that limit.
"Break on through to the other side...yea..."
Hi guys,
DMT is indeed very potent psychedelic molecule. There is not many similar tools like this to explore one's mind.
It can take you very far in sense of psychedelics experience. I use this as reference or 'scale'
en.wikipedia.org
in that sense 'Level 5' is what we want from DMT to deliver:
'Level 5
Total loss of visual connection with reality. The senses cease to function in the normal way. One may feel like they are merging with space, other objects, or the universe, or feel oneness with the world....BLA BLA BLA BLA'
I never sad "everything that happens during a trip that is profound is a breakthrough", as olympus mon put in my mouth. I just disagree with statements like "real old school users breakthrough" or that "real breakthrough' is rare experience never guaranteed with DMT...and it have to leave you in tears to call it 'real breakthrough' and such...
Lets not cheapen the thing, but lets be objective here too.
As wiki says about Level 5 experience: "There are powerful, and sometimes brutal, psycho-physical reactions interpreted by some users as reliving their own birth. Feelings of reaching to the beginning or the end of space and time. The loss of reality is so extreme that it becomes ineffable."
I'm not English, but I guess that ineffable means impossible to describe with language or such. With this I agree.
I work with spice for some time now, and I don't see reason why would 50mg of quality DMT administrated (vaporized) proper way 30 minutes after 15g Caapi brew drunk NOT deliver 'real breakthrough' or 'level 5 psychedelic exp.' I experienced five very intense breakthroughs in a row in one night no problem and not once. I'm not sure if they were 'real old school', but there are reports from my studies here on Nexus, so you can give me a feedback if you like. As I said, everyone who work with spice seriously will experience it's full potency and will find preferred way of administration soon or later.
olympus mon wrote to zubidlo: "no disrespect intended but your statement sounds like its from someone who maybe hasnt ever broken through"
You see this and "only old school user real breakthrough" establishments makes me sad
. It is creating separation or segregation here on forum. I mean, why would be 'not experiencing a breakthrough' disrespectful? How many 'real breakthroughs' one have to exp. to be respected here? Who is this 'old school user'? Is it determined by number of 'real breakthroughs' experienced or posts published?
I didn't want to hijacked this thread, but I have the right to disagree. I hope that wiki reference will be helpfull to someone here.
I wish everyone a safe travels into spice realm and please no hard feelings:d
Regards,
DMT is indeed very potent psychedelic molecule. There is not many similar tools like this to explore one's mind.
It can take you very far in sense of psychedelics experience. I use this as reference or 'scale'
Psychedelic experience - Wikipedia
in that sense 'Level 5' is what we want from DMT to deliver:
'Level 5
Total loss of visual connection with reality. The senses cease to function in the normal way. One may feel like they are merging with space, other objects, or the universe, or feel oneness with the world....BLA BLA BLA BLA'
I never sad "everything that happens during a trip that is profound is a breakthrough", as olympus mon put in my mouth. I just disagree with statements like "real old school users breakthrough" or that "real breakthrough' is rare experience never guaranteed with DMT...and it have to leave you in tears to call it 'real breakthrough' and such...
Lets not cheapen the thing, but lets be objective here too.
As wiki says about Level 5 experience: "There are powerful, and sometimes brutal, psycho-physical reactions interpreted by some users as reliving their own birth. Feelings of reaching to the beginning or the end of space and time. The loss of reality is so extreme that it becomes ineffable."
I'm not English, but I guess that ineffable means impossible to describe with language or such. With this I agree.
I work with spice for some time now, and I don't see reason why would 50mg of quality DMT administrated (vaporized) proper way 30 minutes after 15g Caapi brew drunk NOT deliver 'real breakthrough' or 'level 5 psychedelic exp.' I experienced five very intense breakthroughs in a row in one night no problem and not once. I'm not sure if they were 'real old school', but there are reports from my studies here on Nexus, so you can give me a feedback if you like. As I said, everyone who work with spice seriously will experience it's full potency and will find preferred way of administration soon or later.
olympus mon wrote to zubidlo: "no disrespect intended but your statement sounds like its from someone who maybe hasnt ever broken through"
You see this and "only old school user real breakthrough" establishments makes me sad
. It is creating separation or segregation here on forum. I mean, why would be 'not experiencing a breakthrough' disrespectful? How many 'real breakthroughs' one have to exp. to be respected here? Who is this 'old school user'? Is it determined by number of 'real breakthroughs' experienced or posts published?I didn't want to hijacked this thread, but I have the right to disagree. I hope that wiki reference will be helpfull to someone here.
I wish everyone a safe travels into spice realm and please no hard feelings:d
Regards,
Your mind is a mirror.
ayahuascan
Rising Star
obliguhl said:
in the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few
ayahuascan said:
The possibility's are always infinite...no experts here, just people with experience.
I don't get the need to reach some goal or put numbered levels on this...just let go & observe!!
The basic psychedelic effects are always amazing, but when things are right, it will go that extra lightyear.
zubidlo said:
Um...I didn't say this...if that's what you took from this discussion maybe you should re-read...
BTW, Old school refers to people who have been experimenting with this for a number of years...before it was a mouse-click away. You had to meet people & gain trust to get information about it & you were educated with experience, by the experienced, in person...not anonymous letters on a magic computer screen.
There was a certain respect for this experience & it's power & connection, that is quickly evaporating.
It's not a personal attack on you!:roll:
WS
People who think that they need to compete with anyone here, are in for a hard lesson.
Its a personal journey, you can't force your will onto. If you are ready it will happen. But it does not happen so you can be part of a group. It happens because its the right thing for you to experience at this given moment. Just as it might be right for you to experience the "basic effects" for a long time. They are a gift. If you don't respect them, if you mock them in your heart because they are "not a breakthrough" ...if you belittle them, if you feel inferiror because of all this...you need to get your ass kicked for once.
Everyone is a beginner, one way or another. It does't matter. You're not here to grow up to be the BIGGEST TRIPPER EVAR.. .you are here to grow as a human being.
Its a personal journey, you can't force your will onto. If you are ready it will happen. But it does not happen so you can be part of a group. It happens because its the right thing for you to experience at this given moment. Just as it might be right for you to experience the "basic effects" for a long time. They are a gift. If you don't respect them, if you mock them in your heart because they are "not a breakthrough" ...if you belittle them, if you feel inferiror because of all this...you need to get your ass kicked for once.
Everyone is a beginner, one way or another. It does't matter. You're not here to grow up to be the BIGGEST TRIPPER EVAR.. .you are here to grow as a human being.
obliguhl said:
Well Put!!!
WS
zubildo.... i truly am not attacking you nor trying to argue with you. these are exactly your words! i put nothing in your mouth. your being a little sensitive. i understand your concerns of separation or the "cool kid club" on the nexus but that's not what i think people are trying to do here. some just don't agree.zubidlo said:
as far as me saying "no disrespect intended" im referring to ASSUMING something about you. in this case not breaking through, NOT that if you haven't broken through your lesser important. thats really going to far and your over reaching here.zubidlo said:olympus mon wrote to zubidlo: "no disrespect intended but your statement sounds like its from someone who maybe hasnt ever broken through"
You see this and "only old school user real breakthrough" establishments makes me sad
again im not trying to upset you but i feel you kind of taking things out of context and too far. i too want a positive good and caring environment but sometimes folks are going to disagree and disagree strongly. thats all. im sorry if ive caused you ill feelings. not my intention.
i dont feel i am, nor want to be some tripper God nor do i think i am any better than others for my use of dmt. if anything i humbled because i was the fool i referred to using poor techniques and improper tools not breaking through for many many months in the beginning.
but i would like to thank you. after reading your thoughts about sepparation i did take some time to check my intentions and attitude. although i didnt mean harm i can see how others reading thses comments can take them the wrong way. a little ego check never hurts so thank you zubildo!!
Hi guys,
I enjoyed discussion that arouse here about DMT breakthrough. I think that it is forum's purpose to get people to talk to each other. In my case I have no one to share my opinions regarding psychedelics in my community. When I open my mouth about DMT I usually see peoples faces turn into something like this ::roll: or :?. They think that I'm mental, dirty hippie junkie and they are scared by LSD myths, their parents feed them with. In better case, people listen to me, but never show interest, they think psychedelic experiences are just crazy, meaningless hallucinations.
I'm happy to have opportunity to share thoughts here on Nexus. Intelligent people here are helping me to learn many fascinating ways. Thanks to you lads, there is experience waiting for me, which makes feel alive (next is mescaline and 4-aco-dmt study on my list). Like DMT - you have to try it to understand, there is no way to truly describe that exp. with just language. I'm in age when I take working with entheogens as exploration or studies, rather than fun. They are powerful tools for exploration of ones mind. DMT holds special place among psychedelics 'cause of its potency to literally crack reality wide open and toss you through that hole:d
Thank you boys for replies, you are all very smart a carrying. There are no hard feelings on my side a never were. I didn't want to argue, just discus this and that. I have problems with english language, so forgive me if I misunderstand here and there:wink:
Now back to thread. Elf machine started this threat with:
"Is it possible to "break through" drinking ayauasca? If yes, how much does one have to drink and do you enter the crysanthemum?"
I'm not up to answer, let's take different approach for fun sake. How does 'ayahuasca breakthrough' look(feel) like? Is it anything like 'DMT hyperspace'?
There is great documentary 'Shaman - Other Worlds' made by french director Jan Kounen, who holds quite interest and experience into south american shamanism. Here it is in 7 parts with english subtitles:
Another his movie dedicated to ayahuasca and peyote is 'psychedelic western':d 'BLUEBERRY', which is a cult in psychedelic community and finishes with very accurate (beautiful) aya 'breakthrough' sequence in my humble opinion. It should be seen in much better quality, but here is the scene anyway::shock:
This movie is based on Jean Giraud comic book and he cooperated on film and other great movies (Alien, The fifth element...). Check him out, if yo like:
en.wikipedia.org
I hope this brought fun to someone here on nursery (I had to try ayahuasca after I saw that years ago:!::arrow: )
Regards, specially to Wsaged, olympus mon, obliguhl
I enjoyed discussion that arouse here about DMT breakthrough. I think that it is forum's purpose to get people to talk to each other. In my case I have no one to share my opinions regarding psychedelics in my community. When I open my mouth about DMT I usually see peoples faces turn into something like this ::roll: or :?. They think that I'm mental, dirty hippie junkie and they are scared by LSD myths, their parents feed them with. In better case, people listen to me, but never show interest, they think psychedelic experiences are just crazy, meaningless hallucinations.
I'm happy to have opportunity to share thoughts here on Nexus. Intelligent people here are helping me to learn many fascinating ways. Thanks to you lads, there is experience waiting for me, which makes feel alive (next is mescaline and 4-aco-dmt study on my list). Like DMT - you have to try it to understand, there is no way to truly describe that exp. with just language. I'm in age when I take working with entheogens as exploration or studies, rather than fun. They are powerful tools for exploration of ones mind. DMT holds special place among psychedelics 'cause of its potency to literally crack reality wide open and toss you through that hole:d
Thank you boys for replies, you are all very smart a carrying. There are no hard feelings on my side a never were. I didn't want to argue, just discus this and that. I have problems with english language, so forgive me if I misunderstand here and there:wink:
Now back to thread. Elf machine started this threat with:
"Is it possible to "break through" drinking ayauasca? If yes, how much does one have to drink and do you enter the crysanthemum?"
I'm not up to answer, let's take different approach for fun sake. How does 'ayahuasca breakthrough' look(feel) like? Is it anything like 'DMT hyperspace'?
There is great documentary 'Shaman - Other Worlds' made by french director Jan Kounen, who holds quite interest and experience into south american shamanism. Here it is in 7 parts with english subtitles:
Another his movie dedicated to ayahuasca and peyote is 'psychedelic western':d 'BLUEBERRY', which is a cult in psychedelic community and finishes with very accurate (beautiful) aya 'breakthrough' sequence in my humble opinion. It should be seen in much better quality, but here is the scene anyway::shock:
This movie is based on Jean Giraud comic book and he cooperated on film and other great movies (Alien, The fifth element...). Check him out, if yo like:
Jean Giraud - Wikipedia
I hope this brought fun to someone here on nursery (I had to try ayahuasca after I saw that years ago:!::arrow: )
Regards, specially to Wsaged, olympus mon, obliguhl
^^^^ ^^^^
^^^^
Cheers man!
Blueberry is a pretty cool movie!!
Dig the old west/psychedelics contrasts!!
The psychedelic scenes are disturbingly accurate too!!
However, have you noticed that at the end, when they are in the caves where the Indians keep their "gold", there is Peyote, San Pedro, Chacruna, Caapi Vine & I think a type of Datura growing in there, as well as a few other things if I remember correctly.
Mescelin + Ayahuasca + tropane alkaloids = :shock:
That would be one hell of a brew, that's for farkin sure!!!
(or just some multi-cultural/multi-locational Hollywood movie trickery... :lol: )
WS
Blueberry is a pretty cool movie!!
Dig the old west/psychedelics contrasts!!
The psychedelic scenes are disturbingly accurate too!!
However, have you noticed that at the end, when they are in the caves where the Indians keep their "gold", there is Peyote, San Pedro, Chacruna, Caapi Vine & I think a type of Datura growing in there, as well as a few other things if I remember correctly.
Mescelin + Ayahuasca + tropane alkaloids = :shock:
That would be one hell of a brew, that's for farkin sure!!!
(or just some multi-cultural/multi-locational Hollywood movie trickery... :lol: )
WS
Hi guys,
That's what I'm talking about!:d Runi, the shaman got quite deadly stash there:twisted: He almost killed our hero with that combo!:evil:
Pretty accurate in my case. Not at first time, but after some experimentation (doses, preparation, addmixtures) with brew I experienced similar dimension of sharp visuals (made from light unfolded through spectrometer + foggy dreamy visions). Difference was that visuals were much more colorful, quite unreal variations of colors never seen before (purple, green mostly). That I would definitely call 'a breakthrough'. What do you think?
I mean, straight free base DMT can deliver more intense trip. Those which usually ends by loosing consciousness. Very intense, almost violent beginning, when my consciousness is launched like rocket out of this reality and I get literally melted into 'a void or nothingness'. Ones I listened music, not expecting this intensity, as DMT hyperspace replaced reality, the music slowed down and as it did I became the music (this is impossible for me to describe any better). Than I swear to god, the time stopped - (Me being sound stopped:?: :arrow: :shock: ) and I ceased to exist but still conscious (there was nothing to hold on to?:I hope you follow:?) and than I lost consciousness (or maybe haven't and I just don't remember).
It was impossible to take anything from that experience. I keep a diary, but this one was impossible to reported on. That kind of experience was not reached during aya sessions yet. I even doubt it's possible with aya. By the way there were not many visuals, just 'a tunnel of some sort'. I will pursue 5-meo-dmt study in the future to get to reach that level of reality 'dislocation or disconstruction'. I'v read some crazy reports on 5-meo.:lol:
On the other hand aya is a visionary, spiritual thanks to length and capability to think and remember better during experience. DMT flight is forgotten very soon (diary is essential in my opinion (keeping track of dosage too etc.)).
I would like to know if some of you been through similar flight:d and If you took away any wisdom or sense from that.:idea:
Regards,
:d :d :dWSaged said:
That's what I'm talking about!:d Runi, the shaman got quite deadly stash there:twisted: He almost killed our hero with that combo!:evil:
Pretty accurate in my case. Not at first time, but after some experimentation (doses, preparation, addmixtures) with brew I experienced similar dimension of sharp visuals (made from light unfolded through spectrometer + foggy dreamy visions). Difference was that visuals were much more colorful, quite unreal variations of colors never seen before (purple, green mostly). That I would definitely call 'a breakthrough'. What do you think?
I mean, straight free base DMT can deliver more intense trip. Those which usually ends by loosing consciousness. Very intense, almost violent beginning, when my consciousness is launched like rocket out of this reality and I get literally melted into 'a void or nothingness'. Ones I listened music, not expecting this intensity, as DMT hyperspace replaced reality, the music slowed down and as it did I became the music (this is impossible for me to describe any better). Than I swear to god, the time stopped - (Me being sound stopped:?: :arrow: :shock: ) and I ceased to exist but still conscious (there was nothing to hold on to
?:I hope you follow:?) and than I lost consciousness (or maybe haven't and I just don't remember).It was impossible to take anything from that experience. I keep a diary, but this one was impossible to reported on. That kind of experience was not reached during aya sessions yet. I even doubt it's possible with aya. By the way there were not many visuals, just 'a tunnel of some sort'. I will pursue 5-meo-dmt study in the future to get to reach that level of reality 'dislocation or disconstruction'. I'v read some crazy reports on 5-meo.:lol:
On the other hand aya is a visionary, spiritual thanks to length and capability to think and remember better during experience. DMT flight is forgotten very soon (diary is essential in my opinion (keeping track of dosage too etc.)).
I would like to know if some of you been through similar flight:d and If you took away any wisdom or sense from that.:idea:
Regards,
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