bacterial substrate extraction: safe or not

[ipumaestro]

this thread was started as a response to this original thread gone derailed

id like to gather more information regarding the potential risks of extracting substrates that have been either decomposed or infected with bacteria

ive extracted ayahuasca, rue, and pedro teas many times and have never felt sick when using the resulting alkaloids. furthermore the final product appeared to be the same as other non bacterially infected substrates

can anyone provide information as to how bacterial toxins might pass through an a/b with cleaning

 

[ouro]

If you want to experiment - make a tea out of something that extracts clean if its fresh; something that has no alkaloids etc. Let it rot, then extract it and see if anything comes through. Maybe defat the solution before letting it decompose? Of course some toxins are very bad in quantities undetectable to the kitchen chemist, so this experiments results are limited.

Personally I doubt it's a problem, but I suppose it depends on what molds/bacteria are growing on your material. Do bacteria/mold toxins survive boiling, high ph, are more soluble in NPS than basic solution, and more soluble in acidic solution than NPS? That is a lot of conditions.

 

[Infundibulum]

Plus, bacteriotoxins/mycotoxins are such a generic term, that, without knowing what bacteria/molds are growing and the chemical nature of any toxins they can contain it is difficult to make much rigorous discussion.

The fact that you might have extracted and also consumed moldy extracts with no apparent side-effects also holds little water, especially if you do not know the toxicology of any potentially contaminating toxins. As an example you can consume radioactive material with no apparent ill effects just that many times before cumulative effects start manifesting.

Bottom line is without any rigorous analytical method applied on extracted products, little discussion can be made. And with the general inherent risk of extraction process (where we take care not to have a substance contaminated with lye/solvent/phthalates etc), discussing about adding risks to your health by extracting a gone-bad material in a forum deeply dedicated in harm reduction reads very backwards.

Do you want to extract moldy stuff? Good for you, but we prefer to lean towards the err side. If you want to argue for the safety of your extract give us hard data, and then then we're all ears.

 

[ipumaestro]

Do bacteria/mold toxins survive boiling, high ph, are more soluble in NPS than basic solution, and more soluble in acidic solution than NPS? That is a lot of conditions.

for the most part no, minus extremophiles who would be unlikely to culture outside of a single extreme situation let alone be adaptive to both high and low ph, freezing and boiling temperatures, or perhaps a deoxygenated environment

that is to say that if bacteria/mold could somehow still pose toxicity to a user it would then need to be dissolved by a non polar solvent and then dissolved by an acidic solution during the salting process. i feel the chemicals used during the process are infinitely more harmful to a user than the bacteria/mold that would most likely be decomposed innumerably during the process



as much as i agree with safety i feel the idea of pasteurization argues on a large scale that bacteria and mold infected substrates can be purified with less effort than what one does when performing an extraction

 

[ouro]

Yes, I very much doubt that the mold/bacteria itself would survive those conditions and pass through the NPS - but the real question is weather the toxins produced in their growth would be left intact. This depends on the kinds of toxins they make. I know botulism toxins, for example, are destroyed by boiling. But, I really don't know which kinds of cultures will grow on various teas in the fridge and what toxins they may make. You could do some research or experimentation if you wanted to extract rotten materials - probably that same effort is better spent just keeping your stuff from rotting. Dehydrate completely or freeze anything that you plan on keeping for a long time.

 

[Infundibulum]

^
you appear to confuse bacteria/molds with their chemical constituents; there is no question about organisms surviving an extraction, they all die big time.

Now how their constituents? How about some hard facts? If you argue that no potential toxins from microorganisms make it to the final product extraction then you know to whom the burden of proof lies. Speak up my man, do not just theorise.

 

[ipumaestro]

can you provide proof that any potential toxins from bacteria/molds make it through a full extraction with cleaning

how about your hard facts?

 

[Infundibulum]

Please note that I did not mention that toxins can go through - the risk is there however and I still maintain that you should be able to demonstrate cleanliness of your product if it is coming from plant material growing other nasties.

can you provide proof that any potential toxins from bacteria/molds make it through a full extraction with cleaning

how about your hard facts?

Aaanyway, now that's us going in circles, so thread gets closed for the time being, unless it is deemed worthy enough from another mod or the Boss.