Believe Nothing. Allow anything.

[joedirt]

I'm not sure which member originally posted that, but it is without a doubt the best way to integrate the DMT experience to me.

Believing in Aliens and elves will get us nowhere in this world. It is this world that we have to live in and this world is AT LEAST as amazing as the DMT universe....that should aways be rememered.

Personally I think a person should take what they can from the experience and then try to not let the existential nature of it consume them. Maybe it is spiritual. So what if it is? Does it change our lot in life one bit? Will we not still die and pass across the void just like everyone else? No reason to miss out on the total awesomeness of the here and now in this life. Use DMT to enhance this experience...not to try and answer "what is this experience?"....for that path is a fool's path....that I've walked myself.

 

[gibran2]

It isn’t possible to believe nothing. It would be impossible to function as a human being without constantly relying on belief.

With every step you take, it is belief that the pavement beneath your foot is solid that leads you to lower your foot and move forward.

As you seat yourself onto a chair, you believe that the chair exists and that it is capable of supporting your weight.

When you’re driving your car and a young child darts into your path, it’s your belief that what you’re seeing is real and your belief in particular consequences that leads you to swerve and brake to avoid hitting the child.

It is your belief every night that the sun will rise tomorrow and that you’ll be alive tomorrow that allows you to calmly drift into sleep.

You have beliefs about the physical world and how it functions. You have beliefs about your own senses and their reliability. You have beliefs about your friends and family – about their role in your life, about their thoughts and feelings. You have beliefs about your larger society and all of the people and institutions around you.

Our beliefs play a major role in determining our behavior, and without them, we cannot function.

 

[joedirt]

It isn’t possible to believe nothing. It would be impossible to function as a human being without constantly relying on belief.

With every step you take, it is belief that the pavement beneath your foot is solid that leads you to lower your foot and move forward.

As you seat yourself onto a chair, you believe that the chair exists and that it is capable of supporting your weight.

When you’re driving your car and a young child darts into your path, it’s your belief that what you’re seeing is real and your belief in particular consequences that leads you to swerve and brake to avoid hitting the child.

It is your belief every night that the sun will rise tomorrow and that you’ll be alive tomorrow that allows you to calmly drift into sleep.

You have beliefs about the physical world and how it functions. You have beliefs about your own senses and their reliability. You have beliefs about your friends and family – about their role in your life, about their thoughts and feelings. You have beliefs about your larger society and all of the people and institutions around you.

Our beliefs play a major role in determining our behavior, and without them, we cannot function.

Be that as it may, but it is still our perception that forms our beliefs. But for the sake of arguing I'd be more apt to call your examples assumptions than beliefs. I assume all those things will happen because I have observed them happen countless times in myself and others. Thus I assume that if I do the same the result will be the same. Sure you can insert the word belief for assume and it still makes sense, but it seems less correct to me. Either way your counter argument is obviously valid from your point of view...but I think my sentence stands. Perception determines everything...including beliefs.

Cheers

 

[gibran2]

Be that as it may, but it is still our perception that forms our beliefs. But for the sake of arguing I'd be more apt to call your examples assumptions than beliefs. I assume all those things will happen because I have observed them happen countless times in myself and others. Thus I assume that if I do the same the result will be the same. Sure you can insert the word belief for assume and it still makes sense, but it seems less correct to me. Either way your counter argument is obviously valid from your point of view...but I think my sentence stands. Perception determines everything...including beliefs.

Cheers

I agree that perception determines our beliefs, although you have not yet defined “belief”.
How do you define “belief”?

You say that the examples I gave are not beliefs, but rather “assumptions”. And you suggest that we can call such things assumptions because we observe them countless times. So how do assumptions differ from beliefs? And would you agree that if someone observes aliens countless times while under the influence of DMT, then we can put aliens into the category of assumptions?

 

[joedirt]

Be that as it may, but it is still our perception that forms our beliefs. But for the sake of arguing I'd be more apt to call your examples assumptions than beliefs. I assume all those things will happen because I have observed them happen countless times in myself and others. Thus I assume that if I do the same the result will be the same. Sure you can insert the word belief for assume and it still makes sense, but it seems less correct to me. Either way your counter argument is obviously valid from your point of view...but I think my sentence stands. Perception determines everything...including beliefs.

Cheers

I agree that perception determines our beliefs, although you have not yet defined “belief”.
How do you define “belief”?

You say that the examples I gave are not beliefs, but rather “assumptions”. And you suggest that we can call such things assumptions because we observe them countless times. So how do assumptions differ from beliefs? And would you agree that if someone observes aliens countless times while under the influence of DMT, then we can put aliens into the category of assumptions?

I'd define belief as the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

and I'd define perception as the act of taking something for granted.

So yes if every time you did DMT you saw aliens then eventually you'd assume they'd be there...what I'm suggesting is that people should not believe inthe elves, but allow for their reality...

 

[corridors of my cells]

I'm not sure which member originally posted that, but it is without a doubt the best way to integrate the DMT experience to me.

Believing in Aliens and elves will get us nowhere in this world. It is this world that we have to live in and this world is AT LEAST as amazing as the DMT universe....that should aways be rememered.

Personally I think a person should take what they can from the experience and then try to not let the existential nature of it consume them. Maybe it is spiritual. So what if it is? Does it change our lot in life one bit? Will we not still die and pass across the void just like everyone else? No reason to miss out on the total awesomeness of the here and now in this life. Use DMT to enhance this experience...not to try and answer "what is this experience?"....for that path is a fool's path....that I've walked myself.

You have a gud point there.. thats what i always did on not just dmt but all psychedelics... personally i dont believe in existance of entities even tho i have seen them muıltiple times.. But there are some moments that are even confusing for a person like me who always keeps logic over spirituality. But those things didnt happen to me on dmt, mostly salvia and lsd.

I have seen many people getting lost in the mazes of their minds because of believing a lot. But i have also seen other people reaching to a very high level of internal peace because of believing, so its like a thin line between nirvana and sanitarium . But i also agree with some of Gibran's words that he replied. Because believing is not a simple word that could be explained so simple. And i dont always ask "what is this experience". But on lsd especially and also other psychedelics i get many answers about existance and mechanics behind creation, eventho i never ask any questions. So when i look back i can sum up some of my experiences and get some lessons out of them

I always had logical explanations for these weirds moments too, so i agree on ur statement about believe nothing allow anything up to a point.. I just have one question mark that i would never remvoe from my mind.. if oneday i get any logical explanation for that one in my mind i will be so happy. Thats about seing a woman face in a salvia trip then fnding nearly exact woman on the net related to salvia visuals.

here is the post i made long time ago for ur interest:

Maria pastora vision - Salvia Divinorum - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

But as a conclusion i think ur point is true and basically the same path i have chosen to walk myself. So always keep thinking logical and never get lost in thoughts.

Peace

 

[joedirt]

Sorry I need to refine that last post....I mispoke.

I'd define ASSUMPTION..not perception as the act of taking something for granted.

Sorry for the mistype.

Cheers

 

[Felnik]

I don't think trying to understand the DMT experience is wrong or impossible. I am light years ahead from where i started in my own personal understanding of the experience. I refuse to accept we cannot get a better grip and understanding of what is happening ultimately. DMT can take a person to the outer reaches of sanity and there are many places along the way to get stuck. I know it well.

Terrence M. described his approach as provisional and i think that is an apt approach to this.
I don't disagree with using the DMT experience to help understanding the daily reality we live and function in. Thats probably the most important element this time . Integration is the point.

How one chooses to deal with the DMT experience is a personal choice.
Everyone of us is different in how much of a dose we can take and how the hyperspacial realm manifests and unfolds itself to us. Interpretation is justifiably all over the map. No once person is correct at this time.

I think if you don't care what the DMT experience is all about then its fine to get in the : Whats real? Whats belief ? Whats perception?
loop. I say something is real, how one defines real is a whole other can of worms. I say real exists somewhere. Understanding all possibilites is important. But i say we have to start from someplace !! build on what we think we know perhaps. Real may be only contained in a conscious entities perception and opinion of external or internal input. We decide what is real and not.

In order to build an understanding of the dmt experience we have to start with some basic framework of assumptions. These can be provisional assumptions always prone to destruction and rebuilding. Assumptions that hinge on the concept that our perceptions are already flawed perhaps.

I accept that we are very primitive monkeys and that the DMT induced experience is something presently beyond our current perceptual understanding as we presently know it to be. I sense that our senses are information input mechanisms formed for a specific planetary environment. I also sense that our environment and our perception of it is possibly a program of sorts. The matter reality we live in could possibly be an outflow reality from a consciousness energy matrix that permeates the multiverse infinitely in all directions.
I also sense that time is a construct but seems to have relevance to our percieved environment and present reality construct.

take nothing for granted don't get hung up on the details , keep it provisional.

The conundrum is perhaps to assume nothing and assume everything all at the same time.


anything is possible.....why not?

 

[joedirt]

I'm not sure which member originally posted that, but it is without a doubt the best way to integrate the DMT experience to me.

Believing in Aliens and elves will get us nowhere in this world. It is this world that we have to live in and this world is AT LEAST as amazing as the DMT universe....that should aways be rememered.

Personally I think a person should take what they can from the experience and then try to not let the existential nature of it consume them. Maybe it is spiritual. So what if it is? Does it change our lot in life one bit? Will we not still die and pass across the void just like everyone else? No reason to miss out on the total awesomeness of the here and now in this life. Use DMT to enhance this experience...not to try and answer "what is this experience?"....for that path is a fool's path....that I've walked myself.

You have a gud point there.. thats what i always did on not just dmt but all psychedelics... personally i dont believe in existance of entities even tho i have seen them muıltiple times.. But there are some moments that are even confusing for a person like me who always keeps logic over spirituality. But those things didnt happen to me on dmt, mostly salvia and lsd.

I have seen many people getting lost in the mazes of their minds because of believing a lot. But i have also seen other people reaching to a very high level of internal peace because of believing, so its like a thin line between nirvana and sanitarium . But i also agree with some of Gibran's words that he replied. Because believing is not a simple word that could be explained so simple. And i dont always ask "what is this experience". But on lsd especially and also other psychedelics i get many answers about existance and mechanics behind creation, eventho i never ask any questions. So when i look back i can sum up some of my experiences and get some lessons out of them

I always had logical explanations for these weirds moments too, so i agree on ur statement about believe nothing allow anything up to a point.. I just have one question mark that i would never remvoe from my mind.. if oneday i get any logical explanation for that one in my mind i will be so happy. Thats about seing a woman face in a salvia trip then fnding nearly exact woman on the net related to salvia visuals.

here is the post i made long time ago for ur interest:

Maria pastora vision - Salvia Divinorum - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

But as a conclusion i think ur point is true and basically the same path i have chosen to walk myself. So always keep thinking logical and never get lost in thoughts.

Peace

Yep. I literally try to do these sorts of experiences as though I'm doing a mindfullness meditation. Never get attached to what you see and you won't get to freaked...unless of course you loose consciousness and wake back up tripping harder than you ever have before...that scared me pretty good the one time it has happened.

I know what you are saying about this only working to a point... I've had an experience on mushrooms where I merged with an infinite white light...On Purpose....I was able to remain in this perfect state (I call it samadhi) for well over an hour. Out of the many many psychedelic experiences I've had nothing even compares to that. It shook me to my core. A part of me believes I saw my soul/nirvana/god/whatever. Truth is it doesn't matter what it is. Belief is irrelevant. It was an amazing experience. It's not like I can really describe it to others, although I can share how I managed to get there...even though I've only managed to get all the way there once. Even if I saw God it's not like I can prove it to others...so belief is irrelevant for me. I'm willing to allow that it's both spiritual and not spiritual. Perhaps the only difference between spiritual and non-spiritual is perception?

Cheers

 

[joedirt]

I don't think trying to understand the DMT experience is wrong or impossible. I am light years ahead from where i started in my own personal understanding of the experience. I refuse to accept we cannot get a better grip and understanding of what is happening ultimately. DMT can take a person to the outer reaches of sanity and there are many places along the way to get stuck. I know it well.

Terrence M. described his approach as provisional and i think that is an apt approach to this.
I don't disagree with using the DMT experience to help understanding the daily reality we live and function in. Thats probably the most important element this time . Integration is the point.

How one chooses to deal with the DMT experience is a personal choice.
Everyone of us is different in how much of a dose we can take and how the hyperspacial realm manifests and unfolds itself to us. Interpretation is justifiably all over the map. No once person is correct at this time.

I think if you don't care what the DMT experience is all about then its fine to get in the : Whats real? Whats belief ? Whats perception?
loop. I say something is real, how one defines real is a whole other can of worms. I say real exists somewhere. Understanding all possibilites is important. But i say we have to start from someplace !! build on what we think we know perhaps. Real may be only contained in a conscious entities perception and opinion of external or internal input. We decide what is real and not.

In order to build an understanding of the dmt experience we have to start with some basic framework of assumptions. These can be provisional assumptions always prone to destruction and rebuilding. Assumptions that hinge on the concept that our perceptions are already flawed perhaps.

I accept that we are very primitive monkeys and that the DMT induced experience is something presently beyond our current perceptual understanding as we presently know it to be. I sense that our senses are information input mechanisms formed for a specific planetary environment. I also sense that our environment and our perception of it is possibly a program of sorts. The matter reality we live in could possibly be an outflow reality from a consciousness energy matrix that permeates the multiverse infinitely in all directions.
I also sense that time is a construct but seems to have relevance to our percieved environment and present reality construct.

take nothing for granted don't get hung up on the details , keep it provisional.

The conundrum is perhaps to assume nothing and assume everything all at the same time.


anything is possible.....why not?

Basically I agree with what you've said. My original post was meant more to be thought provoking than to illicit some grand truth! lol.

I think DMT land is truly interesting..second perhaps to psilocin...but then they are so different. I'd never in a million years want 6 hours of DMT intensity...but I find the lower intensity of psilocin makes it great for self work. When I do them...which is increasingly rare now..I do then alone while meditating. I do them to gain insights to myself. Weather those beliefs come from the brain or come from some external grand mind is a question of belief. I can accept either possibility. The most interesting plane of reality I have yet visited is here. As amazing as DMT is it pales in comparison to this so called reality.

Just figured I give everyone something to ponder and philosophize over.

 

[Saidin]

I agree that perception determines our beliefs, although you have not yet defined “belief”.
How do you define “belief”?

Belief is a habit of thought. When you think about something enough it becomes a belief...change your habit of thought and you change your beliefs.

 

[gibran2]

Belief is a habit of thought. When you think about something enough it becomes a belief...change your habit of thought and you change your beliefs.

So are you suggesting that if I think about being able to fly for long enough that I’ll believe that I can fly? Or if I think about walking through walls for a long time I’ll believe I can walk through walls? Or if I think about being a character on The Simpsons that eventually I’ll believe I’m a character on The Simpsons? I don’t think so.

Defining belief as a habit of thought is not adequate.

...I do them to gain insights to myself. Weather those beliefs come from the brain or come from some external grand mind is a question of belief. I can accept either possibility. The most interesting plane of reality I have yet visited is here. As amazing as DMT is it pales in comparison to this so called reality.

Just figured I give everyone something to ponder and philosophize over.

Gaining insight and self-understanding is really what it’s all about. Whether those gifts come from within or outside of us doesn’t really matter. So this is an example where belief seems unimportant, at least to me.

We each experience the DMT realm in our own unique way, and I must say that I’ve visited places that are much more interesting than this reality. This reality is peculiar in its persistence and its “physicality”, but in comparison to the immaterial realm this reality seems to be very “mechanical” and “contrived”.

 

[Saidin]

So are you suggesting that if I think about being able to fly for long enough that I’ll believe that I can fly? Or if I think about walking through walls for a long time I’ll believe I can walk through walls? Or if I think about being a character on The Simpsons that eventually I’ll believe I’m a character on The Simpsons? I don’t think so.

Defining belief as a habit of thought is not adequate.

Yes, this is exactly what I am suggesting. If you think that you can fly for long enough you will begin to believe you can fly. Believing in something doesn't necessairly mean it is true and therefore our beliefs are meaningless.

It is a habit of thought which creates a psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

 

[gibran2]

So are you suggesting that if I think about being able to fly for long enough that I’ll believe that I can fly? Or if I think about walking through walls for a long time I’ll believe I can walk through walls? Or if I think about being a character on The Simpsons that eventually I’ll believe I’m a character on The Simpsons? I don’t think so.

Defining belief as a habit of thought is not adequate.

Yes, this is exactly what I am suggesting. If you think that you can fly for long enough you will begin to believe you can fly. Believing in something doesn't necessairly mean it is true and therefore our beliefs are meaningless.

It is a habit of thought which creates a psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

There is at least one subtlety that you’ve missed. You originally said “When you think about something enough it becomes a belief…” Thinking about something is not the same as thinking some particular thing might be true.

I can think about myself flying – visualize myself flying, imagine how others would respond to my flying, feel the wind on my face, etc. without thinking that I can fly. I can think about traveling in a spaceship to a distant planet many light-years away, but I will never believe that this is possible (unless we someday have faster-than-light technology), regardless of how much I think about it.

And I still don’t agree that thinking without believing will eventually and reliably lead to believing. In pathological cases, I would suspect that just the opposite is true: belief leads to constant thoughts related to the belief.

I can repeat to myself over and over “I can fly, I can fly” and I will never believe I can fly. There are no thoughts that are not themselves considered beliefs that will ever lead me to believe I can fly.

Finally, beliefs are far from meaningless. We all base our behavior on our beliefs. Someone who believes he can fly might jump off a canyon and start flapping his arms, intending to get to the other side. False beliefs routinely lead nations to war. Etc…

 

[joedirt]

This reality is peculiar in its persistence and its “physicality”, but in comparison to the immaterial realm this reality seems to be very “mechanical” and “contrived”.

This reality is also peculiar in that without it you wouldn't experience the DMT reality as you do. The only thing that can be said on a provable basis is that DMT combined with the human brain produces some amazing other wordly results. Even if it is beyond time and space it still required the human brain's unique ability to perceive in order to take you there. DMT alone is just a little solid white powder after all.

..Food for Thought.

 

[L_Starr]

Use DMT to enhance this experience (1)...not to try and answer "what is this experience?" (2)....for that path is a fool's path....that I've walked myself.

(1) Agree!

(2) if we do not think of the experience then how can we use it to enhance this experience?
Maybe we should learn to appreciate it as it is, but then again it will only be natuarl to think about it even come up with some idea?

And tho why would you be a fool to try and answer something that one may find so astonishing? That day when we do not try and answer is when we have reached enlightenment/ total transcendence? Maybe...?

 

[joedirt]

Use DMT to enhance this experience (1)...not to try and answer "what is this experience?" (2)....for that path is a fool's path....that I've walked myself.

(1) Agree!

(2) if we do not think of the experience then how can we use it to enhance this experience?
Maybe we should learn to appreciate it as it is, but then again it will only be natuarl to think about it even come up with some idea?

And tho why would you be a fool to try and answer something that one may find so astonishing? That day when we do not try and answer is when we have reached enlightenment/ total transcendence? Maybe...?

You have caught me in a metaphorical quagmire. I'm just saying that if you believe you will arrive at some ultimate meaning...or ultimate truth by analyzing the DMT experience I believe it's a fool's errand.

My greatest experience to date was with mushrooms...rather low dose..3.5 grams cubensis. I sat in meditation as they came on. I eventually managed to merge with a clear white light and stay suspended in this state for over an hour. It was the pinnacle of psychedelic experiences for me. Heck that experience is why I still do them. But you know what? I still can't tell you for certain what it is. I can tell you what I think or what i believe, but it's nothing more than a belief or a thought about it. Sure I believe it was spiritual, but I can't prove it to you or even show you. Did I meet my higher self? Did I merge with God? Was it Samadhi(What I'm currently calling it) or was it just some stupid drug induced state? As awesome of an experience as it was I simply have no idea...even though I experienced it.

Personally I don't think we are equipped to understand ultimate reality or ultimate truth. We are but mere humans...

 

[Enoon]

Do you really think there is such a thing as 'ultimate'- anything?

You give meaning to your experience. The experience is nothing without your processing, your evaluation of it. If you gained something, then you gained something. no? If you merged with God, according to your perception, then IMO you did.

 

[Saidin]

There is at least one subtlety that you’ve missed. You originally said “When you think about something enough it becomes a belief…” Thinking about something is not the same as thinking some particular thing might be true.

Of course thinking about something is not the same as thinking some particular thing might be true. If you think it is true, that is a belief, if you are just thinking of it, then you don't necessairly believe it.

I can think about myself flying – visualize myself flying, imagine how others would respond to my flying, feel the wind on my face, etc. without thinking that I can fly. I can think about traveling in a spaceship to a distant planet many light-years away, but I will never believe that this is possible (unless we someday have faster-than-light technology), regardless of how much I think about it.

There is a difference between thinking about flying, and thinking you can fly. If thinking you can fly (not about you flying) becomes a habitual thought, then you will believe that you can fly and probably wont be around much longer. You are making a subtle difference that does not exist in my premise.

If the thought becomes habitual then it becomes a belief. You of course are not, and are unlikely to think that you can fly enough for it to become a habitual thought and therefore are unlikely the believe it.

And I still don’t agree that thinking without believing will eventually and reliably lead to believing. In pathological cases, I would suspect that just the opposite is true: belief leads to constant thoughts related to the belief.

Which comes first, thought or belief? How can you possibly believe something you haven't thought about?

I can repeat to myself over and over “I can fly, I can fly” and I will never believe I can fly. There are no thoughts that are not themselves considered beliefs that will ever lead me to believe I can fly.

You don't think it is possible to lead yourself into delusional beliefs with constant repition of a particular thought? If that thought that "I can fly" becomes obsessive, then of course you will come to believe that you can fly.

Finally, beliefs are far from meaningless. We all base our behavior on our beliefs. Someone who believes he can fly might jump off a canyon and start flapping his arms, intending to get to the other side. False beliefs routinely lead nations to war. Etc…

Beliefs are completely meaningless in the grand scheme of things because they are either entirely subjective or are based upon the beliefs of others for which we have no proof. We base our behaviors on something that we cannot ultimately prove, and thus are always working under false premises.

False beliefs do not lead nations to war, they are the reasoning that is given to the public to encourage them to support it, which later turns out to be "false". The real reasoning behind conflicts is perfectly well known to the instigators.

 

[gibran2]

First you said:

Belief is a habit of thought. When you think about something enough it becomes a belief...change your habit of thought and you change your beliefs.

Then you said:

There is a difference between thinking about flying, and thinking you can fly. If thinking you can fly (not about you flying) becomes a habitual thought, then you will believe that you can fly and probably wont be around much longer. You are making a subtle difference that does not exist in my premise.

Based on your first statement, thinking about something leads to belief. In your second statement, you suggest that thinking about something does not lead to belief. So what exactly is your premise?

Which comes first, thought or belief? How can you possibly believe something you haven't thought about?

This happens all the time, in particular with infants. For example, infants learn about object permanence and come to believe that objects continue to exist even when out of sight. They believe in object permanence without ever having thought about the concept and without being able to articulate it.
Belief without thought.

Also, there are many things I believe even though I’ve given them very little thought. For example, I believe that it is impossible for me to teleport myself to the moon by patting my head and rubbing my belly while I sing The Star-Spangled Banner. I believe this even though I’ve never thought about it before.

You don't think it is possible to lead yourself into delusional beliefs with constant repition of a particular thought? If that thought that "I can fly" becomes obsessive, then of course you will come to believe that you can fly.

It is possible to come to believe something as a consequence of constant repetition, but generally not probable. I did an experiment: I thought to myself “I can fly” 100 times, and I still don’t believe I can fly.

False beliefs do not lead nations to war, they are the reasoning that is given to the public to encourage them to support it, which later turns out to be "false". The real reasoning behind conflicts is perfectly well known to the instigators.

How do you know this? How do you know what is going on in the heads of world leaders? People in general often don’t understand their motivations, so why exempt world leaders?