Cacao Ceremony & Caapi Question

[endogenous]

Recently I've come to learn that cacao is psychoactive when it is minimally processed and of a specific breed. This is the kind that is used to conduct traditional cacao ceremonies. It can be used as a feel-good stimulant, tool of exploration/introspection and actually has therapeutic uses similar to MDMA.

This is in reference to Podcast 334 – “The Alchemy of Cacao” over at the psychedelic salon.

I want to use the ancient food for the latter purpose of therapy, emotional clearing and meditation.

I'm posting in case anyone was interested but also because of this post by another member (#21 by jamie) where he talks about combining cacao with caapi. I've never worked with caapi but want to try it in conjunction with cacao and both of them on their own. jamie said to take just enough caapi so that you can feel it. He warns not to overdo it which makes sense because too much cacao on it's own can cause headaches and be too stimulating. I'm going to try each on their own before I combine them so I can minimize risk and feel each plant as its own essence (perhaps getting what I want out of the straight cacao anyway). I'm going to take jamie's advice about taking just enough so that you can feel it through trial and error but since I've never worked with caapi I was hoping to get a ballpark, in grams of caapi, of a small amount in your experience.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

a small amount of caapi can vary person to person.

i would recommend starting with 50g, you can work your way up to as much as 120g.

you shouldn't need more than 120... i have found 75-90g to be my sweetspot.

 

[deepacceptance]

Indeed it can vary!

On my first experiment with vine only, I boiled 100gr (3x3 hours) in vinegar water and reduced it to 200ml. I took 50ml shots (thus 25 gram) spaced about an hour apart. I could not finish the last 25gr. 50gr was more than enough, 75 too much, and I figured my sweet spot was between 25-50gr. On another occasion I took 33gr with chacruna and it was perfect.

You got me curious about cacao ;-)

 

[deepacceptance]

P.S. I found this thread on the Ayahuasca forum about using Caapi Vine with Cacao. My preliminary conclusion is, use a very low dose of Caapi.

 

[temp450]

i take a teaspoon of cocoa nibs in the morning to help with sadness. it has mild stimulant effects, but i do notice elevated mood. and not any too strong effects.

 

[endogenous]

P.S. I found this thread on the Ayahuasca forum about using Caapi Vine with Cacao. My preliminary conclusion is, use a very low dose of Caapi.

Thank you that is tremendously helpful and perfectly fits the kind of information I have been looking for.

 

[deepacceptance]

Your welcome. And here are some tips for working with cacao on its own.

I'm looking forward to exploring cacao! With and without Aya.

 

[endogenous]

Wonderful. I'm glad you are interested in cacao as an entheogen deepacceptance. Do let me know what you think of her. I would be interested to know how cacao affects the aya.

That is actually the website where I ordered my block from. I had some last night, it tastes REALLY strong but I loved it.

The effects were nice. I worked it into my spiritual practice on a sensate level and on a metaphysical, spirit-to-spirit level when my work called for it. It wasn't extremely powerful but I was grateful to have cacao as an ally and am happy for the work that we did accomplish together. It felt really good on my physical heart. My heart was pounding and my mental focus was sharp but it simultaneously allowed a calm hush in my normally anxious and on-edge breathing. I followed the emotional model described by the "cacao shaman" on his interesting blog. It is the same model that I use when doing emotional work. e.g. feel my emotions, not grasping at pleasant ones or running from unpleasant ones. Just being there with them, allowing them to fulfill their purpose, teach me what they may and let them come to pass.

At one point in my journey inward I let a fear in my subconscious to bubble to the surface so I could play with it. I had an image of myself, a bar of chocolate and a demon sitting at a coffee table. It was quite absurd and I felt a sort of comic relief. In this instance I see how emotional repression was suspended and how cacao facilitates dealing with emotional trauma from a place of love instead of fear. I do look forward to working with her again.

I actually haven't had MDMA so I couldn't compare but I belive that the cacao has the capacity to create a similar experience. Eventually I will be combining it with caapi as I've said. If I have any note worthy experiences in the future I will be sure share them on the nexus.

.: peace & love :.

 

[obliguhl]

This topic might also be of interest: Raw Cacao Beans & Combinations - Other Psychoactives - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[endogenous]

I actually have a pound of tongan pride sitting right here! I don't know that I want to mix them just yet as I'm still getting acquainted with that plant as well. I read your thread 2 days ago when I read everything that the search tool turned up...

I didn't realize kava was also a mild maoi. I'm going to see if I can find more info on this.

 

[obliguhl]

Congrats, Tongan Pride is unusual in its effects for a kava, but i like it!
You really might want to get aquainted with both solo first. Also keep in mind, that after around 1-2 weeks of combining it with cacao beans, i developed some sort of dizzyness. I knew this feeling from a kava overdose in the past, so my guess is, that the cacao and kava maoi somehow build up to a point where additional intake of either is simply too much.

With cacao, there also seems to be a definite buildup in effects after 3-4 days of use. Always keep that in mind if you are trying other plants, because you still could have some cacao in your system after you stopped taking it.

I myself have gone through around a kilo of beans now and have noticed, that it is a very effective anti-depressant and stimulant and that it works continuously. My dose varies, but i found that you need to pass a certain threshold to REALLY feel it. For me, this is around 20-30 beans, or around 20-30g or an ounce. I find that the initial effects can be too much sometimes if the dose is higher. For me, there definatly is a slightly unpleasant comeup. But i have never taken more than 45g (in two portions 30+15g several hours apart).

As for potency, there is a difference between different brands. Do you got the cacao from ceremonialcacao? I wanted to get some from him. The last bag i bought is really weird, and i learned later, that the bigger, fuller beans are from a commercial hybrid with a weak alkaloid profile. The beans i purchased at the grocerystore were stronger and were also much flatter in shape. Unfortunatly, i don't know if they were forastero or criollo but propably the first. The hybrid im eating now does not have a real bitter taste so i guiess this is another sign that it's not the best brand to continue eating.

The good thing about cacao seems to be, that noone knows it's potential, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to ban, while many people would propbaly be open to try it. "It's just chocolate, right?". It definatly gives me some sort of blissed out, relaxed and confident feeling. Makes me wanna connect more with people too. A bit like very small stimulating dose of LSD, mixed with the gentleness of Cactus - only quiet a bit milder!

As for your original question, also search for chocolate + ayahuasca (or caapi). I remember around two years ago there were some discussions about combining dark chocolate with ayahuasca.

 

[endogenous]

Congrats, Tongan Pride is unusual in its effects for a kava, but i like it!
You really might want to get aquainted with both solo first. Also keep in mind, that after around 1-2 weeks of combining it with cacao beans, i developed some sort of dizzyness. I knew this feeling from a kava overdose in the past, so my guess is, that the cacao and kava maoi somehow build up to a point where additional intake of either is simply too much.

Point taken. I've been drinking the kava every 4 days to promote peace. And I think I just want to drink cacao every 2 weeks or so in large, 2 ounce, ceremonial doses.

As for potency, there is a difference between different brands. Do you got the cacao from ceremonialcacao? I wanted to get some from him. The last bag i bought is really weird, and i learned later, that the bigger, fuller beans are from a commercial hybrid with a weak alkaloid profile. The beans i purchased at the grocerystore were stronger and were also much flatter in shape. Unfortunatly, i don't know if they were forastero or criollo but propably the first. The hybrid im eating now does not have a real bitter taste so i guiess this is another sign that it's not the best brand to continue eating.

You're probably right. I got the block of cacao from Heartblood Cacao because they are located in the states (for shipping) and their product is made by a single Mayan family but the stuff from that blog sounds interesting.

The good thing about cacao seems to be, that noone knows it's potential, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to ban, while many people would propbaly be open to try it. "It's just chocolate, right?". It definatly gives me some sort of blissed out, relaxed and confident feeling. Makes me wanna connect more with people too. A bit like very small stimulating dose of LSD, mixed with the gentleness of Cactus - only quiet a bit milder!

Yes! :d I love this. That's why I thought it was really funny that I was feeling this good from chocolate... CHOCOLATE! Little did I know, munching on that bar at age 5, that someday it would become a powerful plant ally.

 

[deepacceptance]

This is something I will very probably try with my soon to be pau d'arco/jimjam. I will write a report if I do.

If you collect experiences with caapi + cacao please drop a link here so I can find and read your report!

Blessed journeys

 

[endogenous]

I've finally done my cacao/caapi ceremony.

Today I drank/ate roughly and ounce of caapi with an ounce of cacao. Additionally I made the cacao with 3 tbsp of raw Yerba Mate for an extra zing.

While it wasn't incredibly intense it was noticeably stronger than cacao alone. I didn't have any MDMA-like breakthroughs but I did feel I could connect with my compassion quicker, feel love quicker and I was more communicative. I enjoyed a quid of coca leaf halfway through. It built on the already present effects, synergizing well. Visually colors were brighter, mentally I could think clearer but I had difficulty doing emotional work. I had problems letting go and getting deeper into the anxiety. But since it's not a psychedelic the anxiety only appeared when I chose to focus on it in my navel.

 

[deepacceptance]

Thank you for sharing your first experience.

I did drink some cacao before a Changa session, and found a nice synergy there. A beautiful heart opening experience. Relatively low doses of both: Four big tablespoons of cacao powder and a sub-breakthrough dose of Changa. Still very much worthwhile and insightful.

Enjoy the journey!