can anyone clarify ego death?

[polytrip]

I’ve had several kinds of experience that I’d call ego death.

Salvia often produces profound amnesia – no memories of who I am, where I was just a moment ago, or even what I am (there was a period where I routinely became inanimate objects). Yet there is still an “I”. The “I” has radically changed (for example, I once became a circus tent), yet an awareness of self remains.

Twice when using DMT I became an alien being. In both cases, there were memories, there was an identity, there was an “I”, but the “I” was someone/something else. The memories and identity were not “mine”. It was only after I came back to this reality that I became aware that there had been a “shift” in identity.

Several times when using DMT “I” was annihilated. It isn’t possible to fully experience this kind of ego death – I can experience the “dying”, but not the death. I experience my ego fading away, and then some time later I re-emerge, but there are never any memories of the period in between (if indeed there is an in-between period).

So is ego death the forgetting of a particular “I”? Or is it the replacement of one “I” with another? Or is it annihilation of everything, including consciousness?

ego death is the annihilation of the self-image. When you experience something there is still a 'self' that's doing the experiencing.
But when the image of the self is gone, you will experience it as dramatically as Art describes it:'a complete destruction of all reference points'.
This is because many points of reference are linked with the self-image: we all have a sort of map in our head that tells us what the world is like and that allows us to manouvre in it and this map does not only contain the outside world, but also our place in this world and the world inside our selves. A dramatic change of this image of the self can be experienced as a complete and total loss of all sense, orientation, existence, etc.

There still is a self, there still is a world around you. But the disapearance of just a few elements of the self on the map is enough to completely loose all orientation on the map, for instance, when you're no longer capable to exactly determine where you end and where the outside world begins, you may no longer be capable of finding yourself on the map.

 

[ragabr]

My experiences that I refer to as ego-death still include the experience, but no individual subject of the experience. It doesn't make sense in language, as it's a translinguistic experience. But there's body going on, and street lamp shining and people talking and asphalt texture of road with no division.

 

[soulfood]

It's funny that I've seen folk give their definition of Ego-death countless times and I very rarely see the word "Id" mentioned.

When the ego dies, the Id is all that is left. It is conciousness or subconciousness in it's simplest form and the ego is merely the butler/messenger/organiser.

The ego is that part of the id which has been modified by the direct influence of the external world. The ego represents what may be called reason and common sense, in contrast to the id, which contains the passions.

Freud 1923

For me, an Ego death includes a simple emotion in it's most raw form. You don't know why you're feeling it, you have no concept of how long you have been feeling it or when you shall feel it no more. This emtotion can be one of pure exstatic bliss or complete emotional agony and every shade of it inbetween or seemingly maybe a complete lack of... And there is only it. Only the word it doesn't exist, or any other word for that matter as an organised awareness of reality is impossible without the ego mechanism.

I've only experienced true ego death less than a handful of times and the after effects are the equivalent of rebuilding yourself in a matter of minutes, hours or possibly longer for some experiences as if you were learning how to do literally everything all over again. I remember my first ego death on an intense mushroom experience. I remember when a word came to my head and just completely confused the hell out of me as I had no concept of what it was or how to use it. Then other words gradually fade back and then not too long after that you recover the basic language mechanism, start throwing random words together until a sentence clicks in your mind.

I find slight fading of the ego a lot more common where the mechanism has slowed down to the point where it almost doesn't function, but you don't get the full reboot.

 

[cellux]

Is it possible to have a total annihilation of the “I” and continue to be conscious? I don’t see how. As long as there is consciousness then there is “I”. “I” is the consciousness. Consciousness becomes the self-image. In this sense, it seems to me that there is always an “I” as long as there is consciousness.

I came to the conclusion that this is indeed possible. There are these things happening, which are bound together into a concept of an "I". When the concept of the "I" drops away, the things - like perception, thought, emotion or insight - continue happening, but their orchestration becomes automated or optimal. There is no control center, it goes on auto-pilot.

Chögyam Trungpa says that space has its own intelligence. He calls it prajna. He claims that once the self dissolves, the intelligence of space leads the process in an optimal way. This means that situations carry their solutions inside them (the questions are the answers), and in the meditative state - when the "I" concept doesn't cloud the process - these signals effortlessly result in the appropriate action (this is what the Buddha meant by "righteous" action - something that doesn't rely on the dualistic imaginings of the "I" concept but on the moment-to-moment renewed, spontaneously working, on the spot - and ONLY on the spot - applicable intelligence present in the here and now).

 

[polytrip]

Is it possible to have a total annihilation of the “I” and continue to be conscious? I don’t see how. As long as there is consciousness then there is “I”. “I” is the consciousness. Consciousness becomes the self-image. In this sense, it seems to me that there is always an “I” as long as there is consciousness.

I came to the conclusion that this is indeed possible. There are these things happening, which are bound together into a concept of an "I". When the concept of the "I" drops away, the things - like perception, thought, emotion or insight - continue happening, but their orchestration becomes automated or optimal.

This is exactly what it's about.

The funny thing is that the confusion about what ego-death means, shows in a nutshell what ego-death is about. The confusion is about words like 'i','me','the self', 'consciousnous','perception', etc. Questions like:"can there be a counsciousness without a self?"
You see that people start to misunderstand eachother when confusion about the exact meaning of simple words arises.
If confusion about the concept of the self happens within your own mind, it's like the mind loses it's usual grasp on reality. This experience is liberating because of it's boundlessness: when the mind loses it's grasp, all boundaries disapear.

 

[gibran2]

The funny thing is that the confusion about what ego-death means, shows in a nutshell what ego-death is about. The confusion is about words like 'i','me','the self', 'consciousnous','perception', etc. Questions like:"can there be a counsciousness without a self?"
You see that people start to misunderstand eachother when confusion about the exact meaning of simple words arises.
If confusion about the concept of the self happens within your own mind, it's like the mind loses it's usual grasp on reality. This experience is liberating because of it's boundlessness: when the mind loses it's grasp, all boundaries disapear.

As you say, how we define ego death really depends on how we define self – how we define “I”.

Art says that ego death is “the TOTAL annhilation of the "I"”, but what do we mean by “I”. If we mean our everyday self-image, then I agree with this. But my experiences have shown me that something remains after self-image is removed. We might call that something “pure consciousness”, and I believe that pure consciousness is my true self – the true “I”.

So if ego death is “the TOTAL annihilation” of consciousness, then ego death equals unconsciousness, and you don’t need DMT to experience unconsciousness – a good knock on the noggin will suffice.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

But my experiences have shown me that something remains after self-image is removed. We might call that something “pure consciousness”, and I believe that pure consciousness is my true self – the true “I”.

And that's just it...Even in those cases where the ego is gone, there is still something (some level of consciousness) experiencing something else (the DMT experience)...I mean, that's how we are able to say, "I smoked DMT and then I __________" or "After smoking DMT, _____________ happened to me". At that point the terms "I" and "me" may be radically different than what they are in waking life, but they are what we use to refer to ourselves and as our "self" just experienced something, they still serve, imo, as the relevant placeholder for whatever it is the individual brings to the experience (whether they perceive it as a bounded or unbounded I).

 

[polytrip]

What has not been mentioned about ego-death yet, is that it is one of the most important aspects of the psychedelic breakthrough experience.
Ego-death is realy what makes the psychedelic breakthrough so totally immersive.
Ego-death is exactly that aspect of the psychedelic breakthrough experience that is the hardest to explain to somebody who hasn't experienced it.
Ego-death is realy the main thing that makes the psychedelic breakthrough mean so much more than just a rush, just a freaky lightshow, just another high.

Out of this state, a feeling of boundlesness and total oneness with the universe emerges, and paradoxically....a deeper understanding of the self.

 

[Global]

To me it's the destruction of "I" as everyone else has been saying which to me also boils down to the loss of internal narration leading to simply "experiencing"

 

[gibran2]

What has not been mentioned about ego-death yet, is that it is one of the most important aspects of the psychedelic breakthrough experience.
Ego-death is realy what makes the psychedelic breakthrough so totally immersive.
Ego-death is exactly that aspect of the psychedelic breakthrough experience that is the hardest to explain to somebody who hasn't experienced it.
Ego-death is realy the main thing that makes the psychedelic breakthrough mean so much more than just a rush, just a freaky lightshow, just another high.

Out of this state, a feeling of boundlesness and total oneness with the universe emerges, and paradoxically....a deeper understanding of the self.

Not necessarily true. My deepest breakthrough (an NDE – an experience unlike any before or since) involved no ego death whatsoever. If anything, my sense of self was intensified and clarified (however, there was no sense of embodiment – I’ve never felt so “far away” from my body – I was certain I wasn’t going back). There was perfect awareness and perfect clarity. The experience would have been much, much easier if I had ego death.

It was much more than just pretty colors.

 

[Global]

What has not been mentioned about ego-death yet, is that it is one of the most important aspects of the psychedelic breakthrough experience.
Ego-death is realy what makes the psychedelic breakthrough so totally immersive.
Ego-death is exactly that aspect of the psychedelic breakthrough experience that is the hardest to explain to somebody who hasn't experienced it.
Ego-death is realy the main thing that makes the psychedelic breakthrough mean so much more than just a rush, just a freaky lightshow, just another high.

Out of this state, a feeling of boundlesness and total oneness with the universe emerges, and paradoxically....a deeper understanding of the self.

Not necessarily true. My deepest breakthrough (an NDE – an experience unlike any before or since) involved no ego death whatsoever. If anything, my sense of self was intensified and clarified (however, there was no sense of embodiment – I’ve never felt so “far away” from my body – I was certain I wasn’t going back). There was perfect awareness and perfect clarity. The experience would have been much, much easier if I had ego death.

It was much more than just pretty colors.

I agree. I don't think the most appealing psychedelic state is ego death. It's hard to even take back much that's worthwhile from the experience since "you" weren't able to comment on it at the time.

 

[Ur]

Discreet segments of awareness

= consciousness?


WS

yeah

I've experienced what I believe to be ego death on a few occasions, but it's no more than a blur. It's incredibly intense leading up to it, and then there's a blur of memory that bring back intense emotions and such, but I can't actually remember those moments. When the "I" is back all I can think of is how intense that was. Ego death seems to me as a moment of pure experience, where all that is is experience. No understanding, no distinguishing, just a moment of being. This seems to be the only thing that can happen without the ego. Pure unfiltered experience. With no references (which are provided by the ego) it's an extremely hard thing to encode to memory, so you don't remember much after it's done.

I heartily agree with these words.

I once stated while tripping "the question is the answer."

I think ego death is defined only by a lack of a sense of self. Not a lack of a sense of being. Regardless of being aware or unaware or not aware or not unaware you can experience ego death. The circumstances are irrelevant. It is an intuitive thing that unfolds uniquely with each experience. However the main aspect is the union of subject and object, the idea of self and externally sensed phenomena are the same being.