Chemical Enlightenment

[2cb]

Is chemical enlightenment possible?

I am around 50 years old, and from 20-28 I meditated every day for an hour or two before bed, never missing a day. Just simple breathing meditation - lotus posture, just watching every inhale and exhale, trying not to miss a single one, dropping any thoughts or perceptions that distracted from that intent. I quit for several coinciding reasons - moving, relationship breakup, and possibly primarily because I wasn't sure I wanted to be enlightened, feeling it coming on heavily at that time, and not knowing how to live in the modern world with the state of being that was coming on strong ... I felt like I was becoming like Krishnamurti or Rajneesh inside (2 that I believe were enlightened), but unless you want that way of life, I can't imagine how you can get along in the modern world. And I was also tempted to be challenged by all of the problems and discord of humanity in general, thinking it might be a loss to live in this world and not experience life as the average human. There's time for enlightenment later I thought - time to experience life as others do.

I don't know if I ended up doing that. I seem to have gotten stuck in the middle somewhere. Over the next several years, I felt most all the progress slide away, very similar to an athelete that stops exercising. Little by little, over time, my daily self-awareness dropped from maybe 25-33% of the minutes of every day to about 5-10% over 5-10 years.

I lost:

1) the stress-free life of seemingly endless best and correct and lightening-fast judgments and actions (meaning no regrets). Today, my judgments are much more slow and muddy and at times, regretful.

2) the wisdom that was welling up within me like a 1st-time mushroom trip almost constantly, like rain in my brain. Today, I have none of this, just residue.

3) some of my good health and energy, though not too noticable - just slightly or moderately.

But some things remained:

1) I still have no internal dialogue/chatter. To this day, I still never "talk to myself". I merely perceive, rarely in a state of mindfulness, more often out of mindless routine, mindlessly taking the steps that need to be taken daily.

2) I can enter self-awareness, and do several times a day, but I can't maintain it for very long - a minute or two at most unless a certain situation or environmental factors demand otherwise.

3) I still maintain some sense of natural honor and integrity in all I do, but I have many more faults due to not being self-aware often ... more so in casual things, less so in serious matters - such as actions with police and courts where I still feel an edge from my work with meditation.

And in the middle-ground, I still have some of the "action before thought" processes, such as losing a bar of soap in the shower with one hand over my shoulder, and catching it with the other hand behind my back before I can even have a mindful reflex to do such a thing.

Anyway ...

In my understanding, the purpose of meditation is to strengthen our intent, so that it is unwavering, and exactly where it needs to be, and where we direct it to be. So that it is "full-on", so that we can give our full and undivided attention to whoever and wherever necessary including ourselves, and so that nothing takes us by surprise, and even if something does (like a potential car/motorcycle wreck), we are doing everything that can be done with full awareness and no fear in every nanosecond.

I can't imagine how a chemical could take someone to such a state, and maintain it. I can imagine a chemical inducing full self-awareness, but I can't imagine how a chemical can develop the power of our intent, the muscle behind our attention, and maintain it indefinitely. To me, that would be akin to taking a chemical, and then instantly becoming the #1 marathon runner in the world for the next 10 years, or instantly lifting more than any other power-lifter in the world for years to come. The most I can imagine from a chemical is a weak temporary glimpse of the real thing.

Does anyone claim to have been permanently enlightened from a chemical?

I am going to be researching 5-MeO-DMT soon (in a country where it is legal), and will find out for myself, since this one seems to have some claims to this effect. It may or may not be easy to tell if another person is enlightened - I mean, there is no real test that can prove/disprove it, but I will try to find out for myself, and I believe that I pretty much have a handle on whether or not something is getting me there, and keeping me there.

(Not that I am sure I want to be there! But I am old enough for it not to matter so much anymore!)

 

[Handel]

It might be an unpopular opinion here, but I personally don't believe that hallucinogens "enlighten" you. The term is used too lightly online. What DMT does (and often shrooms, LSD, mescaline in higher doses) is give you a glimpse of what one can achieve with various meditation techniques after the course of practicing many years (not just the breathing one, but also chakra/kundalini meditation). That is, a connection to the Source of all that Is, a higher understanding (I'm not talking about the visuals, but the "meat" of the situation).

The difference is that hallucinogens don't have a lasting effect. They simply offer a glimpse of what's possible. In my research, most people feel "high" on life after connect with Godhead, and sometimes it can last 2-3 months, but most often the goodness lasts only a few days. Obviously, their lives are forever changed, and they usually become more mindful, but it doesn't become as lasting as for someone practicing esoteric meditation for years.

With meditation, you can achieve that enlightenment on a more permanent basis. The Yogis say that when they have achieved enlightenment, a big part of them stays connected permanently to the Source, feeling its bliss at all times, while a smaller part of their soul is returned to Earth to run the body, until it's ready to die. When both Buddhists and Yogis are asked what's the way to (permanent) enlightenment, they are adamant to say that it is only via meditation.

Hallucinogens do have their place. They can teach the basics, they can alter perceptions, and they can show humans of what's possible. But the extra step for permanent enlightenment happens only via meditation IMHO.

As for your question on how to both live in a modern culture and still do all this, I think that it is possible. There should be some balance to achieve. You don't have to become a monk.

 

[hrtsongmeditation]

As for your question on how to both live in a modern culture and still do all this, I think that it is possible. There should be some balance to achieve. You don't have to become a monk.

That's the one that trips me up. Particularly the heightened empathy that comes with "enlightenment." It is no fun dealing with "regular" people with heightened empathy.

But, I actually suspect that even that would fade as I go deeper. I think the empathy is fine if I could get to a completely non-judgmental state. I think it's my reaction to the empathy that throws me off more than the empathy itself. I thing that if I had that permanent connection to The Source that you're describing it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[endlessness]

Did you ever meet an enlightened person in general regardless of what method they reached it through?

What makes you think that a chemical (or anything single thing really) can lead to permanent enlightenment?

Insights and inner experiences that might help a person on the path of consciousness development? Yes.. Permanent enlightenment? I dont think so.

 

[hrtsongmeditation]

I often come back to thinking that enlightenment is a lot like exercise and that there really is no "enlightenment" as an achievable goal. Buddha taught that part of enlightenment is learning to let go of even the desire for enlightenment.

Most of the books I have read have been pretty clear on the idea that enlightenment exists within each of us, that we are already one with The Source and just lacking in awareness of our own Oneness. Psychedelics can certainly reveal that, but that can't keep you "anchored" in that awareness all day, every day. It takes not just an hour of meditation a day, but continual meditation. I try to make a habit of prayer or meditation every time I'm not actively engaged in some other task.

In essence, your whole life turns into meditation and you bring a meditative quality to every activity.

 

[2cb]

Hehe, I am VERY IMPRESSED with you I would like to comment and ask a few questions of you if I may ... You seem to have knowledge that I would like to learn from.

... I personally don't believe that hallucinogens "enlighten" you. The term is used too lightly online. What DMT does (and often shrooms, LSD, mescaline in higher doses) is give you a glimpse of what one can achieve with various meditation techniques after the course of practicing many years (not just the breathing one, but also chakra/kundalini meditation. That is, a connection to the Source of all that Is, a higher understanding (I'm not talking about the visuals, but the "meat" of the situation).

OK, but I am talking specifically about 5-MeO-DMT, and there is a fairly well-known professor (and I am getting afraid to mention his name here) that claims permanent classical type enlightenment from this, and this alone. And yes, I know exactly what you mean by "not talking about the visuals, but the meat", which makes me think you know what you are talking about But I don't know anything about chakra/kundalini meditation or why it would be important. I always tried to just be simple, figuring if a technique is complex and requires belief (in things like chakras) or other things that are not naturally and fairly obviously known and understood, then I am going in the wrong direction, because the path to enlightenment in my understanding should be the simplest imaginable thing, like simply watching our breathing. But if you are sure about the importance of chakra/kundilini things from knowledge or experience, I would like to know what it is and why it is important (here, or message, or whatever is appropriate).

The difference is that hallucinogens don't have a lasting effect. They simply offer a glimpse of what's possible. In my research, most people feel "high" on life after connect with Godhead, and sometimes it can last 2-3 months, but most often the goodness lasts only a few days. Obviously, their lives are forever changed, and they usually become more mindful, but it doesn't become as lasting as for someone practicing esoteric meditation for years.

Yes, I would agree with you, but 5-MeO-DMT is unique (from my studies) in that it isn't a high or a trip, it completely obliterates any sense of "self" almost instantly, then merging the person's awareness with the "Godhead" as you call it (I am not really sure what that is, but I am sure I will know soon!) How do you define Godhead or Source, and do you think they are real things, or synonyms for something more easily understood? As for my current understanding, I only know what it is to have strong/weak intent, and low/high degrees of awareness (including self-awareness). I imagine your words to be describing the state of our individual awareness when it disconnects from our body and reconnects in a universal sense, to infinity.

With meditation, you can achieve that enlightenment on a more permanent basis. The Yogis say that when they have achieved enlightenment, a big part of them stays connected permanently to the Source, feeling its bliss at all times, while a smaller part of their soul is returned to Earth to run the body, until it's ready to die. When both Buddhists and Yogis are asked what's the way to (permanent) enlightenment, they are adamant to say that it is only via meditation.

Wow - do you personally know anyone that is enlightened? This information was VERY interesting to me, as I may begin to meditate once again very soon. I am getting tired of average human life now It really sucks - haha. Time to leave the swamp and head for the beach. When you say "soul", I am understanding it as the point from which our awareness/perception eminates.

Hallucinogens do have their place. They can teach the basics, they can alter perceptions, and they can show humans of what's possible. But the extra step for permanent enlightenment happens only via meditation IMHO.

Yes, as I see it, the brain demands order and limits so that it can make proper judgments utilizing reliable information. If the brain allowed all possible sensory input and awareness, it would be overwhelmed to process it all fast enough to exercise good judgment. And I think this is the "disabling" aspect of psychedelics - the brain is simply overwhelmed by the awareness of so much reality, that it loses it's ability to process and make timely and accurate judgments, as well as it's ability to deal with many of it's own internal regulatory functions. So, in my understanding psychedelic experiences are a mix of an overdose on reality as well as illusion.

As for your question on how to both live in a modern culture and still do all this, I think that it is possible. There should be some balance to achieve. You don't have to become a monk.

[/quote]

OK, that's easy to say, and I pretty much live like a monk anyway now - but to the best of my 20 year old memory, it became increasingly difficult to engage with anything in this world because almost everything requires corruption and a corrupt individual to function. There is very little anyone can do in this world if they are perfectly beautiful inside. I can imagine it is OK if you are a guru and people just provide things for you out of their love for you, or if you find a way to live primitively (which is practically impossible), or possibly if you are a Yoga instructor, but the choices become very limited. Most employers would fire someone like Rajneesh or Krishnamurti - and they probably wouldn't survive as small business owners for long either - just about every aspect of our society demands that we are not allowed to be beautiful people with simple honeset and good nature. Our society destroys those kind of people without mercy. With few exceptions. Would you disagree?

Thank you for your reply, I really loved it.

 

[jamie]

you cant talk about yoga or anything coming out of the Vedic culture without addressing soma, and obvious ongoing use of psychoactive plants even today by many sadhus in india.

Look at the state of india now. How many of these gurus do you actually believe are "enlightened"? There are tons of abusive Guru scammers with half brained devotees. Hell, this is the new age.

People continue to try to divorce the Vedic and Buddhist meditation paths from they're obvious roots in psychoactive plant use. Both Tibetan Buddhism and the Vedas have roots in deeper traditions. You can find the psychoactive plant use today among Kirati and other peoples in the himilayas, and they will tell you upfront that all the hindu dieties and Buddhist ideologies come out of the older Bon shamanic traditions and others that do utilize these plants and that what you see today is just religion. They claim they don't need religion because they can still see.

So claiming that some gurus, yogis or sadhus say that only meditation is the path to enlightenment and substances are not is not an entire representation of the situation. You wll find yogis who are dedicated to cannabis and datura, you will find Kirati people who use a plethora of psychoactive plants..you will find yellow path Siberian shamans who seem to be practicing buddhism..and then you will find that if you look deeper into Buddhism itself there is hidden links to psychedelic plant use.

..and why does everyone only go to the east and ask them?

I think the first misconcenption people have is that this is an either/or situation. As if only mediation is going to make you enlightened..or only psychedelics etc..it is like the people who believe the Eden mythology and live in some paradigm where it is now man against nature..as if we were ever really kicked out. People need to get over it and look around. We exist in eden, we just shit all over it.

You want to be enlightened? Get over the idea that we need to be perfected. That's what fucks everything up. People cant see a forest anymore, they see a piece of land that needs to be put to better use. They don't see themselves anymore, the see something they wish to meditate away and make better.

Meditation is useful, I just feel like many people talk about it and have no idea.

I see more mindful progressiveness coming out of the psychedelic culture in the west than I do from the yoga/buddhist culture here personally, as flaky as the new age ayahuasca thing can seem to be at times. I still see it as more progressive than these other paths. I don't see too many yoga moms or people claiming long term meditation to be turning on.

I think the traditions that preach meditation as some higher path than the plant use are broken traditions. I also think that a path that combines the use of psychedelics with these other strategies is more effective than just doing one or the other..

 

[hug46]

I think the meaning of enlightenment is subjective for each person. For me it means that i have had my load lightened. Where i have no longer become weighed down by the mundane problems of getting by in day to day life. This transcendental experience can be chemically induced or it could happen while i am out tending the garden. I think if i was to become permanently enlightened i would become a bit of an irritating git (if i"m not already).

 

[Handel]

>OK, but I am talking specifically about 5-MeO-DMT, and there is a fairly well-known professor that claims permanent classical type enlightenment from this, and this alone.

I'm not aware of any such research or trip reports that had such a lasting effect. Links?
You can get ego-death with DMT/LSD/shrooms, the point is to keep the connection to Source!

> But I don't know anything about chakra/kundalini meditation or why it would be important

They are tools that help you get full control of your body/spirit, not just your breathing. There are some interesting binaureal meditations for chakras on youtube to get you started.

> or other things that are not naturally and fairly obviously known and understood, then I am going in the wrong direction

Not necessarily. Even Kabbalah acknowledges them (an Abrahamic tradition), it's not just a Hindu/Buddhism thing. Besides, we know little for our spiritual self and its abilities, there might be something to it.

>because the path to enlightenment in my understanding should be the simplest imaginable thing

Simple yes, easy no. Tools might be required, and chakras could provide that

> I imagine your words to be describing the state of our individual awareness when it disconnects from our body and reconnects in a universal sense, to infinity.

Yes.

>Wow - do you personally know anyone that is enlightened?

Not personally, I now live in the Bay Area so all I know is... engineers. But I'm reading a lot, and the few who do seem to be able to transcend things, are from the Buddhist/Yogi/Zen/Tao circles, and a few monks from the Abrahamic esoteric/mystic traditions. I don't consider most shamans "enlightened", they're just more aware of things than the average awakened person, but they're not always close to the Source. The closest I've come to hear of an enlightened person in my original home (Greece) was a Greek Orthodox monk who lived alone.

if you find a way to live primitively (which is practically impossible)

Do a search on permaculture, on this forum and elsewhere. It is not an impossibility. After my husband is done with his dreams of working in the Bay Area, I hope to finally be able to get a small home close to nature, and grow my own food. In a cheaper country if necessary too.

>There is very little anyone can do in this world if they are perfectly beautiful inside.

I think you're too harsh on yourself. Live a life that is ethical-enough for your ethics-meter, you don't have to be a saint. Ascension (which is the ultimate goal of what we're talking about here) doesn't necessarily come with a monastic, harsh, perfectly ethical life, but rather with wisdom applied to get a balance in what your environment allows. You don't have to fight the wave (a fight that's guaranteed to be lost), neither get carried away by the wave (as most do), but simply ride the wave. In the country of the blind, the one-eyed is king.

 

[Handel]

How many of these gurus do you actually believe are "enlightened"?

There are many scammers, but that doesn't mean that many Buddhists and yogis aren't enlightened. Regarding drugs, Buddhist monks simply don't need them. Many yogis have spoke against them too, especially against opium, which was common in India.

The way I see entheogens is that they are a crapshoot. They can land you to the land of elves, to the land of Source, or to Hell. You have no control over it. It's the equivalent of "I'm feeling lucky" on a Google search. To me, this is not the most optimized way to do things, it can even hurt someone if the trip ends up being very negative. Entheogens are useful, but they're just not as optimized in the grand scheme of things, in my view.

I don't see too many yoga moms or people claiming long term meditation to be turning on.

That's because these yoga moms do a type of meditation that practices stress relief, not the type of meditation that connects you to Source. When the Eastern belief fashion spilled over to the West in the '60s, the Yogis and Buddhists were careful to mostly offer information to their Western counterparts about "safe" meditations. This is well documented. The most esoteric types of meditations (e.g. special methods to recall past lives, visit other worlds, connect with Source etc) were kept secret. Very few in the Western world know of these and practice them today, although it's getting easier now with the Internet.

 

[armbarsalot]

"freedom is not given to us by anyone; we have to cultivate it ourselves. It is a daily practice" ~Thich Nhat Hanh


DMT gave me heightened sense of awareness that wore off after a few days. I was actually wondering if i was going to be like that from now on, i wasn't quite comfortable being so.. comfortable. That goodness it wore off

I'm now on the path to individuation & further enlightenment that i understand will take years to develop and the process will evolve as i do. Similar to martial arts training, i will have a black belt in a few years but that's really only the beginning.

Its takes constant work on the mind (jung,bjj,dmt-ect) body (bjj) & soul (me) to achieve our full potential.

 

[No Knowing]

“Better not to begin. Once you begin, better to finish it.” Chogyam Trungpa [on the spiritual path]

Definitely get back into meditation and possibly, add psychedelics into the mix.

I think jamie is right in pointing out that people saying, "You can get all the way there with LSD, DMT, Ayahuasca, Mushrooms, etc..." is the same as, "Meditation is the only way." Both are false dualisms. What about a path that embraces both sides? One must find their own path, that works for them in achieving these things.

I've found when I just did psychedelics I was very MENTAL not really gaining more peace but more obsessed with my next reprogramming session and wild ideas I was experiencing.

When I take long breaks from psychedelics and begin thinking meditation and renunciation is the only way, life is not as magical or enjoyable. I am just now beginning to try and reconcile the two paths into a middle path.

“I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. ... The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth.”
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

 

[2cb]

>OK, but I am talking specifically about 5-MeO-DMT, and there is a fairly well-known professor that claims permanent classical type enlightenment from this, and this alone.

I'm not aware of any such research or trip reports that had such a lasting effect. Links?
You can get ego-death with DMT/LSD/shrooms, the point is to keep the connection to Source!

Yes ... His name is Martin Ball, PhD.
This site doesn't use the term enlightened:

Home

The Entheological Paradigm is a comprehensive explanation for the fundamental nature of reality and human existence as direct embodiments of the Unitary Energy Being of God and the role of entheogens in personal liberation

orobai.tripod.com

But he does claim this about himself.
This is his audio website:

The Entheogenic Evolution

Welcome to the Entheogenic Evolution Podcast, hosted by author Martin W. Ball, Ph.D. This podcast is dedicated to the discussion of the nondual and unitary nature of being as revealed by conscious entheogenic energetic awakening as well as broad topics in psychedelics, therapy, philosophy...

entheogenic.podomatic.com

where you will find "So You Want to Be Enlightened"

http://entheogenic.podomatic.com/enclosure/2012-03-21T20_10_50-07_00.mp3

amongst other similar topics.

He does claim that by using 5-MeO-DMT, and nothing else, he became enlightened in the classical sense. I am not so sure personally, that is why I want to research this 1st-hand. My sense, based on only cursory knowledge - and limited communication, is that it is slightly different in that his "physiological" changes may be playing "catch-up" to his changes in consciousness. Eg, his physical/mental changes are all occuring after his changes in consciousness, but I never actually asked him about this.

I very much disagree with the other poster(s) that think enlightenment is just something a little extra or some non-chalant state of awareness. When it starts coming down on you, you lose ALL DESIRE, and even more than corruption (excuse my 20 year old memory), that was probably the most worrisome thing about living in this world. It is impossible without desire. Even a little desire will get you thru, but losing it all is ummm ... a real puzzle. Imagine losing your desire for your husband or wife, and seeing them as you see all other people, or your desire to "succeed" in life, or your desire for money. It's really not such a small thing, and it's not a figment of the imagination. It's not a matter of ethics either - because if you resist the need to avoid corrupting influences, you may as well not even begin on the path - these things are profound changes in your being - you must be willing to give up everything, EVERYTHING - I can't stress that enough. Imagine seeing your child, and seeing it as any other child - after all, it's pretty much an illusion that there is something special about YOUR child. There are many things like this, and I would have to think quite a while to remember all of the things that were going on 20 years ago. Those things are just a little taste.

> or other things that are not naturally and fairly obviously known and understood, then I am going in the wrong direction

Not necessarily. Even Kabbalah acknowledges them (an Abrahamic tradition), it's not just a Hindu/Buddhism thing. Besides, we know little for our spiritual self and its abilities, there might be something to it.

OK, I understand you, my sense is that many of those things are adjuncts or auxilliaries for those that are not really disciplining themselves properly with meditation, or esoteric knowledge and whatever benefits that may confer (similar to koans).

I now live in the Bay Area so all I know is ... engineers.

OK, can't help you there, because I am another engineer

But I'm reading a lot, and the few who do seem to be able to transcend things, are from the Buddhist/Yogi/Zen/Tao circles ...

Yes, those are all the things I loved in my late teens and 20s, that is where I got my "gist" of things from. It wasn't easy in the early 80s trying to find out exactly how to go about things, but those 4 spiritualities and Rajneesh and Krishnamurti and *finally* a plain simple instructional book on meditation practices finally got me to where I could begin. It was unbelievably difficult back then to find out "what the hell should I do to "meditate".

Do a search on permaculture, on this forum and elsewhere. It is not an impossibility. After my husband is done with his dreams of working in the Bay Area, I hope to finally be able to get a small home close to nature, and grow my own food. In a cheaper country if necessary too.

Yes, I ended up homesteading, somewhat remotely in Alaska, not the best place to do it. Better to have a longer growing season, but I still grow things all year around indoors to make up for that. It's the toughest job you will ever love - but difficult to find women that will do it. You will never be bored, never have a dull moment, and never desire any other way of life. There is something very special about providing for yourself each day from the gifts of nature.

I think you're too harsh on yourself. Live a life that is ethical-enough for your ethics-meter, you don't have to be a saint. Ascension (which is the ultimate goal of what we're talking about here) doesn't necessarily come with a monastic, harsh, perfectly ethical life, but rather with wisdom applied to get a balance in what your environment allows. You don't have to fight the wave (a fight that's guaranteed to be lost), neither get carried away by the wave (as most do), but simply ride the wave. In the country of the blind, the one-eyed is king.

Heheh, you are very smart, full of wisdom, and well-read. Your husband is very lucky to have you, and he better know it. You know all you need to know, but I promise you, there is * no ethics * - it is just a matter of being ummm - being. It is also the time I quit smashing bugs, and started picking them up and throwing them out the window. It's a matter of sensitivity and internal alignment with truth, a matter of internal harmony with what is simply good. Though I still didn't mind poisoning cockroaches - hehe. They always deserve to die, enlightened or not!

I must agree 100% with what this other poster said:
“Better not to begin. Once you begin, better to finish it.” Chogyam Trungpa ... If you stop in the middle, it's like no-mans land ... too crazy for normal, too mundane for enlightenment.

 

[2cb]

Definitely get back into meditation and possibly, add psychedelics into the mix.

I think jamie is right in pointing out that people saying, "You can get all the way there with LSD, DMT, Ayahuasca, Mushrooms, etc..." is the same as, "Meditation is the only way." Both are false dualisms. What about a path that embraces both sides? One must find their own path, that works for them in achieving these things.

The way I see common psychedelics as useful is that they put your intent/awareness/attention to the test. They can be a feedback (or possibly even a training) device to let you know how well they have developed, how well you can maintain your integrity despite the influence, and how well you can guide the experience utilizing your intent. As I see it, we are beings of perception - and our power of intent directs that perception (attention being: intent maintaining fixed perception), and the stronger our intent, the less ability psychedelics have over our consciousness - the psychedelic effects become more and more "dirt on the window", and less and less "consciousness engulfing" as we become more and more centered in the core of our perception, and less and less centered in our body/brain. Maybe an analogy would be withdrawing ever so more into the nucleus of a cell, and seeing more and more of the cell as "exterior".

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect ... The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth.
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

This exemplifies the problem I have with this man. He is not lying, but he really is not very helpful sometimes! What he is really saying is that the discipline doesn't belong to any path or any religion or any man - but he is NOT saying that the discipline of acquiring unbending, unyielding intent is not necessary. Meditation is the laziest thing you can do next to watching TV or sleeping. But it is the most difficult, because doing nothing but maintaining attention is something your mind will fight with every dirty trick in the book. If you think the feds are out of control with their "control paradigm", you haven't met your mind yet

 

[No Knowing]

I agree we need discipline on the spiritual path but it must come from within not from any books or gurus, etc. They can point towards things [much like psychedelics] but you must see what works for you and follow any leads until they terminate in one way or another.

I really like your idea that psychedelics are a gauge on intent and that as one become centered their effects seem to become more peripheral to the central experience of self or awareness.

If you want another mind-bending "Anti-guru" who will destroy some ideas about enlightenment.

Check out UG Krishnamurti [no relation to Jiddu Krishnamurti]

 

[2cb]

I would say the whole meditation/englightenment experience is like a psychedelic that takes 10 years to take effect, if you practise seriously every day for an hour. The first 7 years are just calming with enhancing perception and awareness, but then it starts coming on strong, and mind-boggling amounts of wisdom and insight starts raining in your brain, or bubbling up, endlessly in every circumstance, and then you realize your entire reality is going to vaporize (because it is so much illusion), and then you realize everything your every considered as "reality" is completely alien to truth & reality, and everybody and everything is living in a mass illusion of desires & beliefs that you can't be part of anymore. It's not a small thing at all, no way. It's the death of everything. You must leave your family behind, because they will endlessly force their illusion of you onto you; your dreams, all of your thoughts on how to function in the world - just EVERYTHING - you must be willing to lose it all. Same as the heaviest trip where you must just "release" and "let go" or go insane in the struggle. And where you end up, you can't know - and I don't know the rest of the story, because I never went far enough to get reborn into the new reality that was likely waiting, and just like the heaviest trip, I am not sure if it was a good thing or bad thing to venture even farther! Of course, you continue with normal everyday things to survive, but it gets more and more impossible at some point in the trip.

 

[Hieronymous]

I fully expected this thread to be about Christian Rosenkreutz :?:

As for the points raised in the OP:

To think a chemical can magically transform someone into an "enlightened" guru is hard for me to believe. There are some (one in particular) on the psychedelic scene in Australia that have attained almost guru status and from what I've observed those types are often egotistical sociopaths that see themselves as "holier than thou" and a lot people easily fall under their spell.
They see themselves as enlightening people with the likes of DMT, which to some extent they are but mostly they are just re affirming their own perceived god like qualities and stroking their egos at the same time.

To me humility is more of an indicator of enlightenment than the above mentioned attention seeking behavior.

The need to follow gurus and such seems like insecurity and the need to be shown the way.

I'd rather find my own way without falling under the influence of a guru or following any pack mentality. I don't dress the way a psychedelic user is supposed to, I don't listen to any so called psychedelic culture music and I don't go to festivals ect.

I walk my own path and I'll become as enlightened as I can myself by being open minded and observant.

Psychedelics like LSD and mushrooms help me by giving me "outside perspective of myself" if that makes any sense. Maybe it's a true inside perspective that is suppressed normally ? It stops me from forming any rigid belief systems that can and are often false and not needed.

DMT is just recreational for me albeit with an out of this world spiritual twist.

 

[jamie]

"The way I see entheogens is that they are a crapshoot. They can land you to the land of elves, to the land of Source, or to Hell. You have no control over it. It's the equivalent of "I'm feeling lucky" on a Google search"

If you get deep enough and study esoteric/meditation practices you will find the same thing..there are records of people being hospitalized etc for going crazy at transcendental meditation retreats etc. There was a thread some time ago on the ayahuasca forums that went into more depth about this reality that is often overlooked.

Also, if entheogens are such a crapshoot, or a toss up..than why does new studies at John Hopkins with psilocybin, Iboga drug therapy and the NAC use of peyote for alcoholism not reflect that? What you are saying simply does not seem to be reflected in reality. It seems as if you are comparing use of psychedelics, lacking any context or structure to some deep esoteric traditional practice. That is not objective. I don't see this kind of toss up happening within the NAC or among huichol or mazatec currandiso. A lot of psychedelic use in the west does not reflect that of traditional medicine practices..just as many people who do yoga never even heard of the Vedas..yet I still personally see more growth coming out of the use of the psychedelics even when the context is lacking.

It is easy to talk about all these secret meditations that these other cultures have, but are you just talking, or are you actively doing? Are you actually going out of body to these places etc(I have so I am not discrediting it at all)?

It is not so nice and fluffy when it really happens.

 

[lobo]

I came to the conclution that all state of conciousness is a chemical state of conciousness.

 

[Handel]

It is not so nice and fluffy when it really happens.

I'm well aware of the dangers of OBE. When you're out there in the Astral world, evil entities, or entities that are after your energy, can attack. There are techniques to build shields and a stronger Merkaba to protect yourself, but all that is newer information. Older Western practitioners that rode the '60s train never had access to such info.

Regarding entheogens, in a sub-breakthrough environment, things are safer, but I'd be more worried on full breakthroughs though. Basically, my point is that more information and preparation is required before one starts doing esoteric meditation, but this is especially true for entheogens, since they're immediate in their effects and can take anyone by surprise.

However, all this is besides the point since having an OBE is not required for enlightenment (not in any tradition's definition). Connection with Source, is though.

Regarding my own esoteric practices, since you asked: I do meditation, primarily utilizing chakras. Most of my experiences come from lucid dreaming, and past life regressions (that include afterlife access). Connection with Source has come during such a regression. My goal is to attain permanent connection with that blissful feeling.