Coming off suboxone etc, planning Iboga flood

[corpus callosum]

To the OP- the title of this thread mentions an iboga flood.May I just stress that many of the suggestions youve had ie ketamine/DXM/kratom are useful to aid withdrawal but its not clearly established that the compounds Ive just mentioned would necessarily be safe with iboga at flood doses.

And yes, loperamide is an easy to source drug that alot of people have found useful in large doses to ease withdrawal.Never used it myself though, as shitting porcelain style turds can result from over enthusiastic use of this in some who utilise it to aid the rattle.

Also, if you do use DXM bear in mind this too can be habit-forming.Whatever you use, be judicious and just use as little as possible to smooth out rather than totally abolish the nastiness.

Its a real pity you cannot get codeine as IMO, that would be the best choice if you got down to 200mcg bupe once daily.

 

[evolutionofone]

DXM assisted me through the worst of some nasty ope/benzo withdrawals. Keep in mind I was taking this in large amounts to trip, and quite often for a while, however, low doses (60mg+) for me also significantly helped reduce opiate withdrawal symptoms.

Good to hear DXM was effective for you, thankfully its only opiate withdrawls for swim. I've heard benzo wd's are particularly nasty. How long after taking a dose, did it take the work for you? Swim defnitely needs to look into how long DXM stays active in ones system, so swim doesn't have any interactions with Iboga during his flood. Swims's only ever used DXM a few times in his life, he remembers reading somewhere that its bad/dangerous to take it a certain number of times in a week or days in a row etc?

 

[evolutionofone]

To the OP- the title of this thread mentions an iboga flood.May I just stress that many of the suggestions youve had ie ketamine/DXM/kratom are useful to aid withdrawal but its not clearly established that the compounds Ive just mentioned would necessarily be safe with iboga at flood doses.

And yes, loperamide is an easy to source drug that alot of people have found useful in large doses to ease withdrawal.Never used it myself though, as shitting porcelain style turds can result from over enthusiastic use of this in some who utilise it to aid the rattle.

Also, if you do use DXM bear in mind this too can be habit-forming.Whatever you use, be judicious and just use as little as possible to smooth out rather than totally abolish the nastiness.

Its a real pity you cannot get codeine as IMO, that would be the best choice if you got down to 200mcg bupe once daily.

Thanks corpus callosum & swim does have concerns about Iboga interactions with some of those substances. Ideally he would of course want to have nothing in his system at the time of flood that could have a dangerous interaction with Iboga. Swim will most definitely take some kind of natural laxative with the loperamide. Swim has taken DXM a few times & its really not something he likes enough to ever want do on a regular basis. Swim would definitely try the codeine if possible.

 

[GratefulDad]

I have taken ketamine numerous times on iboga, although not a full flood dose. Kratom would be potentiated, if taken with iboga. Not sure with DXM, since I never did it.

The best bet is to switch to a short acting opiate. Morphine, oxycodone, hydrocodone, or some for of codeine, would all be good, and you don't have to take enough to get high, just enough to not feel withdrawal.

I have been injured twice since my first heavy iboga flood, and after that managing my opiate intake was simple. I just took enough to feel normal, then every 3-5 days I would reduce it. I have used iboga both times since and had very little to no withdrawal. We're talking occasional goosebumps, or maybe looser bowels for a few days, but nothing horrible, and nothing that made me want to use again.

Suboxone is just a tough one, so switching would make it way easier. Using ketamine to detox doesn't work very well, because withdrawal comes back when you come down, and if you have any sort of heavy opiate habit, it takes a hell of a lot of ketamine to not feel the withdrawal. Kratom works just like an opiate and is addictive, but may be easier to kick than suboxone.

I would suggest poppy pods over kratom, personally, because I kicked them. I kicked methadone my first time, poppy pods and morphine the second, and oxycodone the third time. The second two times were way easier.

 

[evolutionofone]

I have taken ketamine numerous times on iboga, although not a full flood dose. Kratom would be potentiated, if taken with iboga. Not sure with DXM, since I never did it.

The best bet is to switch to a short acting opiate. Morphine, oxycodone, hydrocodone, or some for of codeine, would all be good, and you don't have to take enough to get high, just enough to not feel withdrawal.

I have been injured twice since my first heavy iboga flood, and after that managing my opiate intake was simple. I just took enough to feel normal, then every 3-5 days I would reduce it. I have used iboga both times since and had very little to no withdrawal. We're talking occasional goosebumps, or maybe looser bowels for a few days, but nothing horrible, and nothing that made me want to use again.

Suboxone is just a tough one, so switching would make it way easier. Using ketamine to detox doesn't work very well, because withdrawal comes back when you come down, and if you have any sort of heavy opiate habit, it takes a hell of a lot of ketamine to not feel the withdrawal. Kratom works just like an opiate and is addictive, but may be easier to kick than suboxone.

I would suggest poppy pods over kratom, personally, because I kicked them. I kicked methadone my first time, poppy pods and morphine the second, and oxycodone the third time. The second two times were way easier.

GrateulDad I have been reading your posts here & @ eboka etc, lots of great info you have shared, thank you. Swim is taking a very low dose of suboxone, less than .5mg & is still tapering so ideally he'd rather not switch over to another opiate thats stronger than this low dosage of suboxone. Swim is also kind of limited in what he can obtain, and money is a factor as well. Do you know of any reactions of kratom with iboga, before a flood etc?

The poppy pods are obtainable, but Swim has heard some horror stories about pods, how supposedly the addiction & dependence develops much more quickly compared to other opiates & that the withdrawls are really bad. Swim read something about there being a lot of extra akaloids in the pods that do nothing but add to & worsen the withdrawl symptoms, even possibly make it longer? That really scares swim. Swim used herion right up until an Iboga flood in the past, he still felt some withdrawls during the flood & the week after. On that flood he took around 15-17g root bark, maybe it was not enough. Swim has read that it takes bigger flood dosages with those stopping suboxone.

 

[SpireCatalyst]

Im not sure if it would be much of a difference but have you discussed the transdermal suboxone with ur doc? i my self sufferd from opiate dependence but was lucky and got clean short after dimitri entered my life. its a patch that stays on for a week, and i think the doses go as low as 5mcg.

 

[evolutionofone]

Im not sure if it would be much of a difference but have you discussed the transdermal suboxone with ur doc? i my self sufferd from opiate dependence but was lucky and got clean short after dimitri entered my life. its a patch that stays on for a week, and i think the doses go as low as 5mcg.

The suboxone patch sounds effective, swim wasn't even aware it existed. Swim has suboxone 8mg film strips he's stuck with them, since his doc closed his practice. Swim does a liquid taper, he cuts each suboxone film in 1mg pieces, then takes a few mg of suboxone & dissolves it in 10ml water then doses with an eyedropper half ml or ml at a time. He's gradually reduces the amount of suboxone used each time he makes a new both of liquid sub. Its possible to taper completely off this way, though swim's goal is to get to the lowest dose possible, then jumping off & switching to something shorter acting before the Iboga flood.

 

[GratefulDad]

If you are on such a low dose, it would take very little of any short acting opiate to keep you well. I stepped down to 7.5 mgs of oxycodone twice a day(starting around 60mgs and tapering over a few weeks), and ate low doses of iboga for three days, and I felt just fine.

I kicked pods, and the other alkaloids aren't any worse than eating some pill. They are primarily morphine and codeine, with very little noscapine, thebaine, papaverine, etc. Kratom doesn't react with iboga, but you would want to wait until your withdrawal is starting, before flooding. Also, kratom will be much more expensive than pods, while you're trying to maintain. Plus I hear it taste's awful. I used to make pod coffee and would only dose once a day. I was down to taking 3g of pod powder a day, which is around half a jumbo pod, at less than 2 bucks a pod.

Even with iboga, there is bound to be some minor symptoms that persist for a week or two. When kicking a 7 year habit, half on methadone, it took me about 2 weeks to feel normal, and another two weeks before I really felt all better. The symptoms are minor, such as goosebumps on occasion, and loose bowels, for a week or so. Low doses of iboga help remove these symptoms and can be taken, as needed until you feel better.

17g of bark is a nice dose to trip, but I would probably do more close to 30g of bark. It is a heavy duty experience, but the high doses will hang around in the system for longer, keeping you feeling better for longer. Then taking a booster once or twice a week can help take away all the post acute stuff.

 

[evolutionofone]

If you are on such a low dose, it would take very little of any short acting opiate to keep you well. I stepped down to 7.5 mgs of oxycodone twice a day(starting around 60mgs and tapering over a few weeks), and ate low doses of iboga for three days, and I felt just fine.

I kicked pods, and the other alkaloids aren't any worse than eating some pill. They are primarily morphine and codeine, with very little noscapine, thebaine, papaverine, etc. Kratom doesn't react with iboga, but you would want to wait until your withdrawal is starting, before flooding. Also, kratom will be much more expensive than pods, while you're trying to maintain. Plus I hear it taste's awful. I used to make pod coffee and would only dose once a day. I was down to taking 3g of pod powder a day, which is around half a jumbo pod, at less than 2 bucks a pod.

Even with iboga, there is bound to be some minor symptoms that persist for a week or two. When kicking a 7 year habit, half on methadone, it took me about 2 weeks to feel normal, and another two weeks before I really felt all better. The symptoms are minor, such as goosebumps on occasion, and loose bowels, for a week or so. Low doses of iboga help remove these symptoms and can be taken, as needed until you feel better.

17g of bark is a nice dose to trip, but I would probably do more close to 30g of bark. It is a heavy duty experience, but the high doses will hang around in the system for longer, keeping you feeling better for longer. Then taking a booster once or twice a week can help take away all the post acute stuff.

I appreaciate the info on your personal experience GratefulDad & what actually worked for you etc. Swim feels a bit better about the pods based on your experience. Swim has never used dried pods, made tea etc(though he did grow & harvest his own poppies traditionally!)Only read about it. He just did some looking around & couldn't find any reasonable suppliers for pods though, prices were around triple or more what you mentioned, $7+ea for jumbo pods?

Also swim understands & accepts that there will be minor wd symptoms even with Iboga. He can deal with occassional gooseflesh & loose bowels. When swim kicked herion on his first Iboga flood he had muscle spasms/convulsions? & that horrible skin crawling feeling that lasted a week after the flood. Thats what swim wants to avoid this time. Swim will definitely take more bark this flood.

In his past floods swim would take 2 or 3g/bark every 45 min or so(he was told to do it this way)but after about 5 hours or so its very hard to get anymore down once the nausea/ataxis starts. Once swim purges its extremely hard for him to take any more bark. So to get down close to 30g what would kind of protocol should swim follow to actually do it? He's always heard its a bad idea to take it all at once, but there has to be some kind of happy medium? It took hours for the nausea to set in with swims original 2g/every 45min dosing, so would taking a larger amount initially result in quicker onset of nausea lasting for hours?! Ugh....

Swim knows there's no getting around the nausea, but would like to minimize the duration of it if possible. Swim has around 40g total of bark....but if he decided to do a TA or other Iboga extract, it would end up wasting some of the bark, correct? Its important that swim has some leftover bark for boosters.

 

[GratefulDad]

I would suggest getting a bit more bark. A good 50 grams would probably get you through everything. Keep 10 grams as bark for boosters, and extract 40 g. It doesn't take much bark to take away minor withdrawal. If you use the tek I posted for extraction, I'd substitute the vinegar for hydrochloric acid in water, pH 3-4 would be fine. Bancopuma's limonene extraction may be even better in getting a fuller range of alkaloids, I am not sure. I might suggest using Bancopuma's extraction, though, because limonene may be more thorough.

For dosing, you could take extract over a period of four hours to slow the onset and gauge how much you need, but if you take long, it may be hard to convince yourself to eat more when you are getting really heavy into the trip. My first experience, I weighed about 140 lbs and took about 5 grams of TA. It was probably a bit too much, because I didn't remember a lot of it. I only remember a couple of my visions. However, it did take away almost all the withdrawal.

After a nice flood dose, eating 1-2 grams of bark even once or twice a week after should keep any minor symptoms away. I did it for a month after my flood last time, and then stopped. It was a very easy detox. I only threw up once or twice. Making an extract can probably help reduce some nausea, but the intense sensations of the iboga will probably still make you puke. It's good to lay still, but if you must move, do it very slow and steady.

If you plan on trying to do the bark, I would try to suggest splitting it all up and getting it down in about 4 hours. This won't prolong the experience too much but will allow for a slower come up and less stress on the stomach. Try not to drink too much water (aside from what you need to wash it down) or eat anything too near the flood as excess water or any food in the stomach will make it slower to break down, and make throwing up more likely. You should however be well hydrated the days leading up to your flood.

If you dose the bark fast you may get more nausea, faster. You want to try to hold it in long enough to absorb the alkaloids, though. Doing it slow can help you get more in, but it takes a long time to get to the full experience, and, as you stated, it gets hard to keep ingesting the bark. You really need to get a big enough dose, though, to really get full withdrawal relief. In this case, eating an extract can make it much easier.

With another 10-20 grams of bark, you would probably be just fine. Just remember, if you start feeling bad, don't go take another opiate, just take some more iboga. You will see how, after a flood, a small dose will make you feel normal. Small doses even will help the looser bowel and goosebumps.

 

[Eclipsie]

Hi folks. I must chime in here. On my first phase on subutex I was on it for 4 years. I did the iboga protocol in getting off sub by tapering to 0.25 and then switching over to morphine. I was taking morphine for about 4 weeks (a month basically) then did my flood, was a little freaked out by the visions and some issue I rather not mention but over all it was not so much of a frighetening experience and I enjoyed a little of it. Anyway withdrawals felt like they were gone, 3 days later I feel some withdrawals i.e anxiety, sweats and you know the rest, not so acute but minimum but never the less they were withdrawals. Ok 3 days later I took a booster of Iboga, felt alright for few days, then back to withdrawals, again another booster, felt alright again for few days but again withdrawals, I kept taking boosters when withdrawals for over a month, but every time withdrawals came they just got more acute and acute, perhaps they were paws, but anyway I was taking boosters for a month but they were not holding me. I kept getting more and more depressed and even thought or reverting to short acting opiates to take the edge off. Ok so funds ran out and iboga ran out, then it came, hard asss withdrawals, paws for sure too, I was very unhappy as I really believed a flood dose and boosters for a whole month would do the trick. I dont blame the iboga but sadly subutex and suboxone are hard ass drugs to get off no matter what method you choose. I dont know if the iboga only postponed the paws and withdrawals but thats how it felt to me.

I suffered all the typical symptoms, mind you they werent extreme where am shaking but hardcore paws I would say. I could not carry on like this. I could not do another flood dose because I feel in my heart it will just end up being the same old rollercoaster, so eventually I went back to subutex. I know mine is a unsucessful story, but hey I did everything asked of me i.e going on morphine from low dose sub, doing a flood, and boosters. I really thought I was in the clear when I didnt get any withdrawals or paws for 3 days, but slowly and slow they kept creeping back, every time I took a booster I was ok for few days, even up to a week, but then withdrawals and typical paws kept creeping up on me man, and when they did they were worse each time. I could not wait any longer so like I said I went to the subutex. I really dont believe iboga can be much of benfit for sub users, I think we need to do this ourselves. But I keep thinking I went on morphine? but then again it was only for a month so that means I had sub still in my system, and lots of it.

Any benifit I would say I had from iboga were the visions, quite thought provoking, but as far as covering for withdrawals and paws I really dont think sub users can get away with. I was not prepared to spend so much on another flood dose and more months of boosters, espeacially when paws kept coming back, worse each time. The low mood and depression were a particular killer. I dont know has iboga messed up my batteries in my brain thus the low mood and depression? or is it really the sub long term affects, but I also had typical withdrawals symptoms with the low mood, so it must have been the bup and iboga unable to do anything about it. I dont mean to be downridden but I feel some consolation that am not the only one to go through this, I hear just as many sub users who went through exactly I am in regards to iboga. I may have to go impatient or simply taper the sub and not go on any opiate and see how I feel, but I wont be trying the iboga again. Am not all faulting the iboga but am seeing many folks in my boat so it cant be just me. I just believe sub is too strong that iboga cant really make much of a difference, I genuinely believed I was in the clear 3 to 4 days out, but it went downhill from there. Even boosters did not control it, my practioner was very nice and supportive and did say before the flood dose that its always hard for sub users, and did say this situation may come about, so am not deeply suprised. Sorry if this is bad news people but I had to chime in with my experience. I could not do anything differently.

I took decent amout of root bark too, did much as flood as I could, all looked rosy for a few days but then it was like the ground swallowd me up, back to the beggining of the roller coaster. Anyway I do wish you and everybody can be a success, sadly this protocol did not hold me enough, I could not keep it up, dont think anybody could, even with the funds, 2-3 months is a long time to do iboga and boosters to feel half normal from anxiety, sweats, low mood and depression, I believe they were paws, hopefully it wasnt the iboga messing me up. But sub is some very strong stuff and it seems not many people are find it comfortable with iboga let alone without iboga, even with a switch to lesser opiate and being away from sub. Anyway Beams to you from me peeps.

 

[GratefulDad]

There are success stories from suboxone on the eboka site and on the mindvox ibogaine email list. I didn't kick subs, but methadone is a long acting opiate, too, and I kicked that. When I kicked methadone, I didn't take any boosters, and I felt post acute withdrawal for a month. Some night sweats, goosebumps, insomnia, etc. It was greatly reduced, but it was still there. After a month I felt better, but still had no energy, no drive, and no real ambition. Getting exercise and eating better helped greatly, though. After two months I felt much better and it was like I never used.

I was clean for 5 years, until I had an injury which required some pain medication for a longer period, but it was never hard to control, and I didn't get out of hand. Never the less, I used iboga again to kick, and it was rather easy.

Suboxone may be a bit tougher than kicking methadone, I am not sure, but I also experienced some of the withdrawal come back after the flood. Had I known more back then, I would have taken boosters for a month or two. A good half gram of TA once a week after my second flood kept me good all week. Not sure how much longer it would take for suboxone, but to me, two or three months of having to take iboga once or twice a week, sounds much better than suboxone for life.

I would suggest checking the ibogaine email archives at ibogaine.mindvox.com for people who have kicked suboxone. You could even join the list and ask questions there. There are many providers and people that have much more experience detoxing from specifically subxone/subutex/buprenorphin.

I think many people think that after the flood they will feel all better. With particularly long addictions, the body takes awhile to repair. Iboga helps this repair on the brain (google GDNF and ibogaine, for instance). It also can help one feel better much faster, however with the long acting opiates, it takes a good bit longer. Expect to feel depressed, with low energy. After all, you didn't get addicted overnight, it probably took weeks to months before you developed a physical addiction, and it's probably going to take that long to feel better. A lot of it comes down to how bad you want to be clean, and how bad you want off of the meds.

I can't say I didn't use after my first flood. I was used to failing and just wanting to feel better, and I went and used. But it didn't feel nearly as good anymore, and I just begged and borrowed for everything I could to get that treatment. After a few attempts at using, I decided I was done, and put up with the discomfort for a few weeks. Luckily, the iboga in my system still kept my symptoms minor.

The iboga made it so much easier than any of the 7 clinical detoxes or the countless number of cold turkey attempts I had tried previously. Had I had more iboga and known boosters would stave off withdrawal back then, I would have done that, but even though I didn't, I wanted it bad enough to put an end to it. I was totally ready to be free, and was willing to do what it took. It's really hard to get to that point sometimes, but I think iboga can help with that a whole lot, with the visionary aspect and while it gives a break from cravings and withdrawal.

I can't guarantee it will do for you what it did for me, but I know it was one of the biggest factors in me realizing I could do it. That is all you really need, to be honest. You just need to know that you can do it. Iboga can greatly reduce the withdrawal, though, so it's definitely worth it to use if you are ready and have that determination. Only you can decide if you are ready.

 

[evolutionofone]

I would suggest getting a bit more bark. A good 50 grams would probably get you through everything. Keep 10 grams as bark for boosters, and extract 40 g. It doesn't take much bark to take away minor withdrawal. If you use the tek I posted for extraction, I'd substitute the vinegar for hydrochloric acid in water, pH 3-4 would be fine. Bancopuma's limonene extraction may be even better in getting a fuller range of alkaloids, I am not sure. I might suggest using Bancopuma's extraction, though, because limonene may be more thorough.

For dosing, you could take extract over a period of four hours to slow the onset and gauge how much you need, but if you take long, it may be hard to convince yourself to eat more when you are getting really heavy into the trip. My first experience, I weighed about 140 lbs and took about 5 grams of TA. It was probably a bit too much, because I didn't remember a lot of it. I only remember a couple of my visions. However, it did take away almost all the withdrawal.

After a nice flood dose, eating 1-2 grams of bark even once or twice a week after should keep any minor symptoms away. I did it for a month after my flood last time, and then stopped. It was a very easy detox. I only threw up once or twice. Making an extract can probably help reduce some nausea, but the intense sensations of the iboga will probably still make you puke. It's good to lay still, but if you must move, do it very slow and steady.

If you plan on trying to do the bark, I would try to suggest splitting it all up and getting it down in about 4 hours. This won't prolong the experience too much but will allow for a slower come up and less stress on the stomach. Try not to drink too much water (aside from what you need to wash it down) or eat anything too near the flood as excess water or any food in the stomach will make it slower to break down, and make throwing up more likely. You should however be well hydrated the days leading up to your flood.

If you dose the bark fast you may get more nausea, faster. You want to try to hold it in long enough to absorb the alkaloids, though. Doing it slow can help you get more in, but it takes a long time to get to the full experience, and, as you stated, it gets hard to keep ingesting the bark. You really need to get a big enough dose, though, to really get full withdrawal relief. In this case, eating an extract can make it much easier.

With another 10-20 grams of bark, you would probably be just fine. Just remember, if you start feeling bad, don't go take another opiate, just take some more iboga. You will see how, after a flood, a small dose will make you feel normal. Small doses even will help the looser bowel and goosebumps.

What would you say the difficulty level of making the extract is, if its swim's first time attempting to do so? Swim has yet to attempt any extraction, DMT or otherwise, besides basic soaks, CWE, & San Pedro. Swim worries a bit about screwing it up/or wasting bark. Obtaining another 40-50g bark if something goes wrong isn't an option for him. Swim is considering just eating the bark so he has some left over initially for boosters.

If flooding with an extract, swim hopes he can possibly avoid the difficult stomach issues that come after purging? How would you compare a bark vs. extract flood experience physically? On Swim's past bark floods(after purging)he distinctly remembers having what he can only describe as a giant gas bubble in his stomach when lying down. Even rolling the slightest bit to the left or right was very uncomfortable(not nausea)for him. Once swim finished purging he has been able to get up and move slowly when he needed without nausea, but this gas in his stomach took around 8 hours to subside, it came out very slowly & there was a lot. If that could be avoided it would be great for swim, if not he will deal with it.

Whatever is left of the bark in his stomach is very hard for swim to digest, it actually constipates swim for a few days, which is amazing during opiate withdrawl! Also, during the week or so after the flood what substances would be safe/ok to take without interfering with the iboga healing/reset? Swim is referring to the insomnia & depression post Iboga, which he had(insomnia)for 4-5 days after the initial 2 day flood. it was very rough for him to get through after already being up 2 days straight. Swim has benzos on hand,(he has no addiction to them, & only occassionally takes them)though he is unsure how benzos react with Iboga.

Are there any natural sleep aids that work post Iboga? Besides the insomnia, Swim was very depressed for almost a full week after his flooding, it was very hard to get through, harder for him than the actual flood. Swim has read of others using a mushroom tea & some other things during this period? Any info on this would be greatly appreaciated.

 

[evolutionofone]

Hi folks. I must chime in here. On my first phase on subutex I was on it for 4 years. I did the iboga protocol in getting off sub by tapering to 0.25 and then switching over to morphine. I was taking morphine for about 4 weeks (a month basically) then did my flood, was a little freaked out by the visions and some issue I rather not mention but over all it was not so much of a frighetening experience and I enjoyed a little of it. Anyway withdrawals felt like they were gone, 3 days later I feel some withdrawals i.e anxiety, sweats and you know the rest, not so acute but minimum but never the less they were withdrawals. Ok 3 days later I took a booster of Iboga, felt alright for few days, then back to withdrawals, again another booster, felt alright again for few days but again withdrawals, I kept taking boosters when withdrawals for over a month, but every time withdrawals came they just got more acute and acute, perhaps they were paws, but anyway I was taking boosters for a month but they were not holding me. I kept getting more and more depressed and even thought or reverting to short acting opiates to take the edge off. Ok so funds ran out and iboga ran out, then it came, hard asss withdrawals, paws for sure too, I was very unhappy as I really believed a flood dose and boosters for a whole month would do the trick. I dont blame the iboga but sadly subutex and suboxone are hard ass drugs to get off no matter what method you choose. I dont know if the iboga only postponed the paws and withdrawals but thats how it felt to me.

I suffered all the typical symptoms, mind you they werent extreme where am shaking but hardcore paws I would say. I could not carry on like this. I could not do another flood dose because I feel in my heart it will just end up being the same old rollercoaster, so eventually I went back to subutex. I know mine is a unsucessful story, but hey I did everything asked of me i.e going on morphine from low dose sub, doing a flood, and boosters. I really thought I was in the clear when I didnt get any withdrawals or paws for 3 days, but slowly and slow they kept creeping back, every time I took a booster I was ok for few days, even up to a week, but then withdrawals and typical paws kept creeping up on me man, and when they did they were worse each time. I could not wait any longer so like I said I went to the subutex. I really dont believe iboga can be much of benfit for sub users, I think we need to do this ourselves. But I keep thinking I went on morphine? but then again it was only for a month so that means I had sub still in my system, and lots of it.

Any benifit I would say I had from iboga were the visions, quite thought provoking, but as far as covering for withdrawals and paws I really dont think sub users can get away with. I was not prepared to spend so much on another flood dose and more months of boosters, espeacially when paws kept coming back, worse each time. The low mood and depression were a particular killer. I dont know has iboga messed up my batteries in my brain thus the low mood and depression? or is it really the sub long term affects, but I also had typical withdrawals symptoms with the low mood, so it must have been the bup and iboga unable to do anything about it. I dont mean to be downridden but I feel some consolation that am not the only one to go through this, I hear just as many sub users who went through exactly I am in regards to iboga. I may have to go impatient or simply taper the sub and not go on any opiate and see how I feel, but I wont be trying the iboga again. Am not all faulting the iboga but am seeing many folks in my boat so it cant be just me. I just believe sub is too strong that iboga cant really make much of a difference, I genuinely believed I was in the clear 3 to 4 days out, but it went downhill from there. Even boosters did not control it, my practioner was very nice and supportive and did say before the flood dose that its always hard for sub users, and did say this situation may come about, so am not deeply suprised. Sorry if this is bad news people but I had to chime in with my experience. I could not do anything differently.

I took decent amout of root bark too, did much as flood as I could, all looked rosy for a few days but then it was like the ground swallowd me up, back to the beggining of the roller coaster. Anyway I do wish you and everybody can be a success, sadly this protocol did not hold me enough, I could not keep it up, dont think anybody could, even with the funds, 2-3 months is a long time to do iboga and boosters to feel half normal from anxiety, sweats, low mood and depression, I believe they were paws, hopefully it wasnt the iboga messing me up. But sub is some very strong stuff and it seems not many people are find it comfortable with iboga let alone without iboga, even with a switch to lesser opiate and being away from sub. Anyway Beams to you from me peeps.

Hello, & thanks for sharing your experience. I don't think its possible for Iboga to actually postpone withdrawls but I could be wrong. As long as one takes boosters for the whole duration of PAWS(which could be 6 months for some)I believe it can be avoided. You didn't mention how long you took to taper, suboxone/subutex tapers have to be done slowly. If you jump from 2-4mg quickly to a much lower dose in a few weeks it takes your body time to catch up beacause of the long half life of the buprenorphine. Basically if you taper too quickly & jump off you will be getting withdrawls/PAWS from the dose you jumped off at. You need to be stabalized at a very low dose before stopping sub.

Also the length of time one has been on the drug will greatly affect how long the PAWS will last. You were on subutex for 4 years, this is a long time & the paws you experience after stopping would reflect this. You also did not mention how much bark you took? You only said a decent amount. Swim thought he took a decent amount of bark too(17g)as he was told initially by a treatment provider that 15-20g bark was effective for relieving opiate withdrawl. This wasn't true for swim. He actually needed close to 30g, as GratefulDad has said, it will keep you feeling better for longer. I don't believe Iboga "messed up anything in your brain" any low mood & depression is PAWS from the sub.

Swim has felt the healing effects post Iboga & there is nothing like it. He thinks boosters should be taken for well over a month. It takes a month at least after opiates to start feeling good & almost normal, it doesn't sound like you went more than a month? PAWS is different for everyone too, & it sounds like it hits you pretty hard. It sucks to go through swim knows. He doesn't think you should give up though. Even after reading your story swim is not discouraged. He has a friend who was on suboxone for 2 1/2 years who successfully stopped. She switched to tramadol after tapering to a very low dose(she was on a low dose for over 6 months)She took tramadol for 2 weeks, than starting taking small doses of Iboga weekly, its been almost 6 months & she still feels great to this day. After the first month she felt good & it kept getting better, she did it without even doing a flood too! So swim knows its possible :d !

Swim has been on suboxone for around 10 months, & more than half of that at a low dosage so he has faith in himself & in Iboga, he knows he can get through this. Swim has no problem taking boosters for up to 6 months if its necessary, its a small price to pay to feel like a normal human being again.

 

[evolutionofone]

Suboxone may be a bit tougher than kicking methadone, I am not sure, but I also experienced some of the withdrawal come back after the flood.

I always thought methadone was the worst? I once heard a horror story about a woman who was on methadone maintenence for 7-8 years, not sure of her dosage, but when she kicked, she supposedly got withdrawls for for 6 months, not PAWS but WITHDRAWALS! I can't imagine what it was like to go through something that awful, or how in the hell she even did it.

Not sure how much longer it would take for suboxone, but to me, two or three months of having to take iboga once or twice a week, sounds much better than suboxone for life.

Swim agrees 100%!

I can't say I didn't use after my first flood. I was used to failing and just wanting to feel better, and I went and used. But it didn't feel nearly as good anymore, and I just begged and borrowed for everything I could to get that treatment. After a few attempts at using, I decided I was done, and put up with the discomfort for a few weeks. Luckily, the iboga in my system still kept my symptoms minor.

Swim went through exactly the same thing on his first flood. He hasn't had a desire to use in a long time either, even before going on suboxone, swim just wanted to feel normal & function & was using opiates more to feel normal than anything. Swim is also done, he really does not want to touch opiates after this unless its medically necessary.
Putting up with the discomfort for a while is well worth it in the end.

 

[evolutionofone]

So apparently the cost of pods has skyrocketed, swim might just go with kratom, while he initially thought kratom would be fine, a friend told him it wasn't very effective when he took it post sub.....swim only used kratom for painkiller withdrawl in the past it did kinda work, but supposedly for strong opiates its a different story.

 

[GratefulDad]

I can't answer about kratom, since I have no experience with it. However it is safe near iboga, as long as they are not taken together or right after the flood.

Pods may have went up a good bit, and they have a season, so out of season may be more expensive. It's been a couple years since I bought any.

As for the benzos, they are fine during iboga, even, if needed. I took one xanax after about four days of low dosing iboga to get some sleep, and it worked wonders. I slept like a baby, woke up feeling good, and ate very well, with an increased appetite. Benzos, being addictive, however, should be used sparingly, and only once or twice post flood, if you ask me. Melatonin, even in higher than the label recommends is great, post iboga, to help one sleep. I can tell you, if you are getting four hours a night within 4-5 days after a flood, you are doing fine. Low doses of psilocybin mushrooms after a flood can help boost mood, and energy levels. Over on eboka, some people recommend various different herbs, that may help out, but I haven't experience with them all.


The extraction is pretty simple, honestly, but if you have no experience, with extracting, you could very easily, just do 3-4 soaks in water with hydrochloric acid, pH'ed to around 3-4, then evaporate all the water. What is left will contain most of the alkaloids, and will greatly reduce the amount of plant material. Be sure to let it completely dry, though, so all the excess acid evaporates off. This extract could be capped if you choose.

As for the stomach bubble, I haven't experienced that. I did throw up a whole lot when kicking methadone, but much of that just had to do with the huge dose, and I didn't feel bad at all. I imagine having less material in your stomach may make it a lot easier to handle, but I can't say for certain. I am sure with enough boosters, and your determination, you can make it out of the cycle. Best of luck!

 

[Eclipsie]

I see where you are coming from guys but I had taken boosters for just over a month. I would feel alright for a couple of days or a week but the symptoms (paws) would return and return worse then the previous times. If your going to do boosters for 6 months or so then you may aswel just take nothing for 6 months and be healed by then, or take a short acting opiate for that long and taper off them. I was in no way prepared to buy lots of iboga for half a year just to feel semi normal. I did what was asked of me, hell even tapered to 0.25 crumbs (really slow taper) and from there jumped on morphine as advised by many people and my practioner at the time. I enjoyed the spirtual side of iboga but it did nothing to my mind to shorten the withdrawals or paws for the long run. I was worried about the spiritual experience before iboga as some people cannot cope with it but luckily I saw the good side of my child hood, for some reason I didnt see the negative aspects as many claim. But anyway regarding the withdrawal side I had hoped for much more.

In my experience there really isn't any major difference between taking suboxone or subutex for 2 yearrs or 4 years. I met 2 people where one was on sub for 2 years and the other for 1 1/2 years and both did the iboga same time as me both of them arent clean, the one who was on sub for over a year went to methadone and the other relapsed on heroin and then back to subutex. Both went through what I went through, both did boosters, actually one of them did boosters for 2 months solid but paws were too much to handle, it just seems iboga may extend the paws or make them more acute? I hope not. If somebody has been taking sub for 4 years it doesnt they need to digest more iboga than 2 year sub user, both yeielded same results. Hell if its going to take 6 months of iboga consumption for me to feel semi normal then I may aswell save my money.

I cannot afford to take so many boosters and do many floods. On another forum there was someone who took iboga 4 times (floods) and several boosters yet always relapsed back to sub, that tell you the potency of subutex, subxone and buprenorphine. If I was on heroin then maybe my withdrawals and paws could have been shortend, I dont know but I know I did everything what I could of. Dont get me mixed up am not faulting the iboga, it can only do what it can but sub is a different beast and it seems only time and staying clean is the only option to heal from sub. Over the internet Ive spoken to dozens of people who went the iboga way to get off subutex or suboxone and all seem to report the exact same experiences as me, they did do the short acting route and tons of boosters too only to keep reverting back. I dont mind many of the symptoms but the feeelings of despair, anxiety, depression, insomnia and even sweats can take its toil on any human being. More and more clinics are advising its very hard to detox from sub even with iboga.

 

[Eclipsie]

I did the flood with TA and boosters of root bark up to 30G. The concern I had was that each time paws came back tougher and harder so taking any amount of root bark did not seem to make a major difference other then give me few days of control and let me function. Ive also being seeing reports of iboga being stored in your fatty cells and having a major impact in your brain to the extent of giving you long term depression, I really hope this is not true but then again taking something powerful as iboga will take a lot out of your brain, I knew this beforehand and knew the risks, just didnt seem to hit home until after I had done iboga and was letting time do its course. Who knows perhaps it is the affects of iboga which made it look it was paws from sub? perhaps its bit of both, perhaps the mind is more easily prone to depression and other major symptoms after iboga? probably I never know but I know what I went through and to be quite honest its not something I want to take again or risk. I personally blame it more on the sub then iboga because if I was on a short acting opiate then perhaps it would have been a different experience for me. But like I stated am not alone in this, many on sub who go the iboga way do feel the same as I felt.

Also every time I took boosters I was out of it and I did not want to feel like that for several months, there is also no guarantee after 6 months of boosters or so I would be normal or semi normal, even my sitter and practioner explained this to me, even he is advising against it for the time being until more research and studies are done regarding sub and iboga. Lets me honest here its still a new thing for sub users to go the iboga way. All am saying is I did a slow taper as advised, jumped off a tiny dose, switched to morphine for a month, did a flood , all was well for a few days until withdrawals punched me, took boosters for just over a month, no difference in the long run, so I had to revert back to subutex. I had to function, I had to do my part time job, had to be alert when facing people. Like I stated its happening to many people and the only advice I can give is to do your research properly, be sure the people who have done iboga have actually done it, look for many sub users as possible who went the iboga way, ask questions, be prepared, know the risks, realise there is no guarantee at all paws will be gone even after sveral months of boosters. There are alternatives such as jumping on to something like morphine or dihydrocodeine from sub for a about 2 months and then weaning off those instead of doing iboga at all. For spirtual purposes and for those kind of people it can be some benifit, then again it could be a very bad experience, but as for withdrawals and paws from sub mixing with iboga? am really not too sure.

 

[Eclipsie]

I took the right amount of iboga too, could not take any more or any less, that wasnt the issue, the issue was the paws and withdrawals returning all the time after few days of some reality. The discouraging issue regarding all this is that in my experience so far not many sub users have made it with iboga, even after a long slow taper and jumping on a short acting opiate, even taking boosters or doing more floods, but I knew all this and had nothing to lose.

I stand by liking the spiritual side of iboga but my main concern was at least minimizing withdrals and paws and their duration too, sadly it did not work out too well for me. I dont have the funds to do all this for several months, may aswell go impatient for the half the price if the outcome will be the same and in my experience it looks to be just that. I really hope people do succeed and can find a way of making it to the other side, for now as someone who has experienced iboga coming off sub all I can do is advise and give my side of things albeit negative or sad but its the truth. I wish I could just say its all good and it worked for me but then I would be lying. I just want people to know what they are in for and know the risks before too. The possibility of some damage to the brain is real from iboga, my practioner warned this too so do at your own peril. Good luck and I wish you all to make a transition to the other side. Wish me well to in getting OFF sub "again" hehehe.

P.S also beaware of substances such as kratom, took it in the past and the withdrawals from that are just as long and bad as methadone and suboxone or subutex, its hard to come off too, of anything extends paws its kratom trust me. Though it made me feel good for the short term but during the long run its just as sub where you feel in a fog state. You certainly do not want to trade one addiction to another. Dont always listen to other peoples expericnes in trading opiods or whatever, they could be still on the drugs or simply vouching for them to make themselves feel better. Just do your own research about anything and everything. Dont be naive in the sense of thinking just because something feels good or holds other people that it will by default do the same to you, trust me it doesnt work like that. Ok be well people and do your best to get clean.

God speed.