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Comparison of STB TEK's

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frinj

Rising Star
Confused about the different STB options, I did a little chart to compare them. Specifically, I compared Noman's, Whatcha's, and the Lazyman's (by Vortex), to better understand the differences and the commonalities. I thought the results were interesting enough to post.

First, all three use essentially the same ingredients -- MHRB, tap water, lye, naptha.

All three are pretty similar up to creation of the dmt-naptha solution.

1. Make your lye-water solution.
2. Combine lye-water solution and MHRB.
3. Wait 1 hour (agitating mixture)
4. Add naptha
5. Wait 1 hour (agitating mixture)
6. Separate naptha

The differences through these stages are as follows:
1. Noman's and Whatcha's both call for 1 gram of lye per gram of MHRB; however, Lazyman's only calls for 0.5 grams of lye per gram of MHRB.
2. Noman's calls for 15 mL water per gram of MHRB; Whatcha's calls for about 4.2 mL water per gram of MHRB; and Lazyman's calls for about 50 mL of water per gram of MHRB.
3. Noman's calls for 1 mL of naptha per gram of MHRB; Whatcha's calls for about 0.9 mL naptha per gram of MHRB; and Lazyman's calls for about 0.5 mL naptha per gram of MHRB.
4. Lazyman's contemplates use of MHRB chunks rather than powder, such that you pour the lye solution over the MHRB and then "mash" it in to create the MHRB-lye solution, whereas the other two contemplate use of MHRB powder. (Ironically, Lazyman's calls for 20-30 minutes of mashing both when the lye-solution is poured over the MHRB and again when the naptha is added which, to me, sounds like hard work.)
5. After the naptha is added, Noman's calls for agitation by rolling (to avoid emulsification); Whatcha's just says shake it; and Lazyman's calls for mashing / mixing.
6. Whatcha's TEK calls for both the lye-water-MHRB and the lye-water-MHRB-naptha mixtures to be in hot water (a heat bath) during the waiting period.

I think the most interesting difference is the quantity of water and, on a related note, the strength of the lye-water solution. Whatcha calls for about 1/4 the water as Noman but just as much lye, meaning the solution is 4 times more concentrated. Lazyman's calls for over three times the water and half the lye as Noman's, meaning the lye solution is 6 times weaker than the Noman's lye solution, and 24 times weaker than Whatcha's lye solution. Some one might want to check my math on this, because that seems (to my untrained mind) like a huge difference if everyone is aiming at a similar pH.

After these initial stages, the process diverges but is still pretty analogous. Noman's contemplates putting each pull into a separate jar which goes into the freezer after each separation, whereas Whatcha's contemplates putting each pull in the same container (one pull per hour or so over a 4-6 hour period) and then putting the resulting single container into the freezer. Lazyman's contemplates no freezer at all, but simply evaporating in front of a fan. The notes after Noman's TEK also suggest possibly evaporating somewhat before freeze-precipitation, or possibly cutting the amount of naptha used.

Whatcha also includes sodium carbonate, water, and espom salt washes of the dmt-naptha before freeze-precipitation, whereas Noman's includes doing an initial recrystallization stage using naptha during which he proposes doing sodium carbonate and water washes. (Frankly, Whatcha's approach of doing these before freeze precipitation seems simpler.)

Both Noman's and Whatcha's favor doing subsequent recrystallizations (with heptane?) to purify the spice, but I don't think Lazyman's mentions that.

What I took away from this is that the ratio of lye:water:MHRB can vary quite significantly while still giving similar results. Also, putting the similarities of these techniques side-by-side has helped me get a "big picture" of the naptha STB extraction process.
 
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The difference in lye concentration is interesting. Swim does noman's tek, but maybe he can get by with using a lot less lye?

Also, swim wonders if it's best to give the whole container (water, lye, bark, naptha) a warm water bath with periodic agitation immediately prior to pulling the naptha. Wouldn't this insure the naptha being as concentrated as possible? Swim did this once on his first pull and got almost .5 grams out of about 50ml of naptha.
 
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I think I would err on the side of raising the pH too high than not raising it high enough. None of the lye is going to be pulled into the naphtha anyway, and lye isn't that expensive anyway. Now Whatcha's tek has very little water which is interesting. I use Noman's ratios and the Mimosa soup is pretty thick. Using less than 1/3 of the water must make for a solid mud like mixture. To me this seems like it would be somewhat annoying to work with and harder to mix with the naphtha. On the other side of the coin though, removing the naphtha from that must also be a lot easier.

I've never liked Lazyman's tek, and a lot of vendors offer prepowdered bark that is potent enough. It seems like you'd be missing out on alkaloids without powdered bark, or it would at least require much more time to pull them all.

I never bother with a warm water bath for the entire mixture. I boil water and keep the naphtha as HOT as possible. If you add a little bit extra lye just prior to mixing the naphtha, that will heat up the aqueous layer as well, so to me the water bath seems unnecessary. Now I haven't actually done anything except Noman's tek so I guess I'm kind of just defending what I know works. :p I do want to try Whatcha's sodium carbonate wash prior to freezing. I also love his idea for a simple homemade sep funnel although I haven't seen a gatorade or water bottle like that in a long time. Just when I need one. :roll:
 
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As background, I originally tried Noman's TEK, but added the pre-freezer washes per Whatcha' TEK, but he tried it with only 20g of MHRB as a test. Turned out, the extraction was so small it made it very difficult to separate much naptha cleanly and I did not have much in the way of good tools. Also, my freezer does not go below -6 F (I read it should be -20 F). The end result was about 50mg of dirty looking powder, not particularly "crystal-ish."

I was then about to try a scaled down version of Whatcha's, using one 1/2 gallon milk jug (instead of 1 gallon jugs) and using 1/2 pound of MHRB (instead of 1 pound per jug as Whatcha did). However, after measuring out the dry ingredients, I computed the amount of water based on Noman's TEK and it came out to 3 litres -- but the 1/2 gallon milk jug was only 1.9 liters in size. That's when I realized Whatcha's TEK calls for a much stronger lye-water solution than Noman's.

I actually got nervous about making the solution as strong as Whatcha's TEK called for, in case I was somehow screwing up the math or misreading something. So I after filling half the 1/2 gallon milk jug with water, I only added 100 grams of lye and then 100 grams of MHRB. This means the lye-water solution was roughly 1/2 as concentrated as what Whatcha's TEK calls for, but still about 2-3 times more concentrated than what Noman's TEK calls for. Since both Noman's and Whatcha's TEK's work well, I am assuming that any lye-water solution in between the respective strengths that they call for would also work well.

After the MHRB-lye-water sat in hot water for an hour (with periodic shaking), I added 60 mL of naptha. Note, both Noman and Whatcha call for 90-100 mL for this amount of MHRB. However, another poster (forgot name) indicated this much naptha may not get fully saturated and may require partial evap before freeze-precipitation, so that poster recommended using 0.4 mL of naptha per gram of MHRB (instead of the 1 mL per gram recommended by Noman, or 0.9 mL per gram recommended by Whatcha). I figured 60 mL of naptha (0.6 mL per gram) was another good compromise, decreasing the risk that my naptha will not be fully saturated.

I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that the weaker your freezer is, the more important full saturation is because the dmt will freeze-precipitate more readily the more saturated it is. Since my freezer is pretty weak, I want to try to ensure full saturation. I also would rather not have to add a partial evap step.

Anyway, I figure as long as I'm using ratios that are between ratios that have worked for others, I should be okay, and this allows me to customize a bit.

Another variation is that Noman and Whatcha both talked about pulling the naptha an hour or so after it was added, and each hour thereafter. However, by the time I got the naptha added, it was close to bed time, so I'm letting my first naptha stay in for 24 hours before removal. From what I've read, this can only help and should not hurt anything. My plan is to do my first pull tonight, do the Whatcha washes, then put it in the freezer to freeze-precipitate for a day and a half or so. I'm also hoping that surrounding my container with those little ice packs will help get the temp below - 6 F. Meanwhile, I'll add more naptha for my second pull. In this way, I'll follow Noman's TEK as far as keeping my pulls separate rather than combining them into one container for the freeze precipitation.

I'm also planning to take my dirty 50mg of dmt from my first extraction, add it to whatever I get from this second extraction, and do one or more recrystallizations till it's nice and white.

Hyperspace better be worth it or I'm going to kick some elf butt.
 
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I like to do the first pull rather immediately. Just agitate 4 times and then let separate. The naphtha is only in the jug with the mimosa for like 30 minutes this way, but my first pull is usually very clean white spice, I'm assuming because there is less time for plant oils to make it in to the mix.
 
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Swim hasntt done nomans or lazymans but swim would guess that whatchas tek has the best lye ratio combination as swim once added about 80g of lye per 100g of mimosa and 80ml of naptha and some of the gunk was suspended in the clear naptha.
Swim added another 30g of lye and full seperation of the lye and naptha occured.
Another advantage of whatchas tek is the equipment he uses, everyday items that can be disposed of and gotten again anytime :)

thumbs up for whatcha from me.
 
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Having done Noman's and then a modified Whatcha's (using twice the water called for, but otherwise having proportions the same), I think Noman's uses too much water.

Again, comparing these two, Noman's calls for about SIX TIMES as much water as Whatcha's, resulting in a 6 times weaker lye-water solution. Even doubling the water from what Whatcha calls for, my lye-water solution was still about 3 times stronger than what Noman's calls for.

Now, one reason I doubled the water is because, with Noman's, I had ended up with a lot of very dense sludge forming at the bottom of my mother jug, and I had worried that less water would make this even MORE dense. However, just the opposite occurred. Apparently, the stronger lye-water solution does not allow the MHRB to form solid gunk as easily, which sort of makes sense. I am now thinking that sticking with Whatcha's original ratios would have been fine.

I still may again use double the water called for by Whatcha, if only because it worked for me and, too, it seems somehow safer. I mean, doesn't a lye-water solution that is twice as concentrated commensurately increase the risk associated with working with that solution? Isn't a lye-water-MHRB solution that is twice as concentrated going to eat through your skin faster? I don't know.

I do know I could have probably ran my extraction on twice as much MHRB in the same container using Whatcha's original ratios, which is a factor. Whatcha's is definitely more efficient in terms of processing more MHRB in less space (i.e., smaller size container).

Oh, I also got a lot of tan / brownish crystals from my modified Whatcha's tek, whereas what I got from Noman's was closer to white (though not pure white). There were too many variables to be sure why this happened, but from my reading, I'm thinking the heat bathes allow the naptha to pull in more than the dmt. Since (as I understand it) room temperature naptha will adequately pull in dmt and not much else, I think using heated naptha or putting the mother jug in a hot water bath may be counter-productive unless the goal is to get some jungle-ish spice.

So for my 3rd extraction, I think I'll run Whatcha's without any heat bath. Oh, and I'll again reduce the naptha to around 0.7mL per gram of MHRB, since I do think that helps ensure saturation without needing to partially evap. (Whatcha's calls for about 0.9mL per gram, and Noman's calls for 1mL per gram). Still got to decide whether to double the water again as compared to what Whatcha calls for.
 
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