Cyb's Hybrid ATB 'Salt' Tek - questions

[boom123]

Hi,

I have some simple questions regarding this tek.

1. There's no enough space in my freezer for more than one baking pans. Is it possible that I reuse the same pan for the 4-5 pulls? I mean put/take out of the freezer the pan for each pull...

2. Is it possible to use normal IKEA plates for the same purpose?

3. What would be the optimum temperature of the bath for making the heated pulls? 40-50 degrees celsius?

thanks in advance.

 

[steppa]

I think this is a good idea for more easily separating the naphtha layer, but shouldn't you pull the naphtha while it is still somewhat hot (DMT base dissolves in hot naphtha more than room temp. or cold naphtha)?

When I do the first pulls, my mix is still somewhat warm, about 25º to 30ºC. I'm sure, I'd yield cleaner spice, if the mix was colder. But I'm quite contend with the results and don't mind some color in it. I normally do two or three pulls this way, while the mix is becoming colder from pull to pull.

@cyb
I think it would be a cool move to add approximate temperatures to the pdf file you linked in your fist post of your salt tek thread. Cause this is a thing that spreads in the interwebz. And people can easyly mess up their first extraction when their temp is completly off the scale.
Not everyone who reads this pdf reads on here also.

 

[Earthwalker]

Cyb ,,,,, The variables you speak of does this include ph levels at the start of the TEK as in the TEK it doesn't mention ph at all , or if I follow the TEK to the T should I get a good result and by result being some crystals as this did seem to me being a beginner to be the most strait forward TEK out there !!!!! :thumb_up:

The pH throughout the tek does not affect the aesthetic outcome of the product. It only serves to convert the 'salts' (ie. dmt acetate) into freebase.

Variables are integral to the bark being used.
MHRB reliably produces crystals as an end product.
ACRB is much more fickle as it contains other alkaloids and oils that 'can' interfere with the formation of the crystal matrix. Hence Goo sometimes.

Since ACRB use is still in it's infancy and is not an exact science...some people get clean crystals...some get Goo. It really depends on your batch of bark.

Selective solvents (Heptane, Hexane etc) may help, as can varying the temperature of the mix but is by no means a sure thing.

Run the tek on a small batch and see what you get.
It's all the good stuff in the end.

You Cyb are a gentleman and a scholar , is that a fair statement !! Lol:twisted:

 

[tryptus]

Regarding temperature of the mixture while doing the naphtha pulls: Hybrid ATB Salt Tek vs. Max Ion Tek

Hi Cyb,
In your "Hybrid ATB Salt Tek," you keep the entire mixture warm (the mimosa mud layer + solvent layer) in a warm water bath while stirring/rolling the mixture & allowing the naphtha to separate before pulling the naphtha layer from the bottle. In other words, you are pulling hot naphtha off of hot mimosa mud.

In your "Max Ion Tek," you keep the mixture (mimosa mud) at room temperature, then add heated naphtha to the mixture, stir/roll the mixture, and pull the naphtha layer from the room temp. bottle. In this case, I believe, ideally, the naphtha layer would still be warm compared to the mimosa mud when you finally pull the naphtha layer after stirring/rolling. However, considering it can take 30 minutes or more for the entire stir/roll/settle stage, I have a feeling the naphtha layer has probably come to equilibrium (room temp.) with the mimosa mud, so you may just be pulling room temp. naphtha off of room temp. mimosa mud.

Do you recommend keeping the glass mixture bottle at room temp., and adding hot naphtha for the pull [as in the Max Ion Tek], or do you recommend keeping the glass mixture bottle warm (along with the naphtha) for the pulls, e.g. in a warm water bath [as in the Hybrid ATB Salt Tek]?

P.S. I am attempting an extraction with 50g pre-powdered MHRB in a 1L glass bottle.

P.P.S. Thank you for all the support and Tek's you have written. They are detailed and very helpful for a beginner.

 

[cyb]

Do you recommend keeping the glass mixture bottle at room temp., and adding hot naphtha for the pull [as in the Max Ion Tek], or do you recommend keeping the glass mixture bottle warm (along with the naphtha) for the pulls, e.g. in a warm water bath [as in the Hybrid ATB Salt Tek]?

The ATB Salt tek is quite old now and was originally designed for MHRB. The Max Ion tek is a revision with some tweaks to maximise yield potential.

As for your question:
You can do either.
Keeping the mix (inc. solvent) warm for the duration tends to pull ALL that the bark has to offer (inc. oils/colouring/other alks) in order to be sure that it is entirely depleted. Cleaning is done later if desired.

Using hot solvent and room temp mix is more desirable if you can mix and pull before total temp equilibrium is reached. The temperature differential should ensure greater saturation of the solvent in a faster time.
More pulls, however, does the same job...just keep pulling till nothing more precipitates in the freeze.

 

[slugware]

@cyb
I think it would be a cool move to add approximate temperatures to the pdf file you linked in your fist post of your salt tek thread. Cause this is a thing that spreads in the interwebz. And people can easyly mess up their first extraction when their temp is completly off the scale.
Not everyone who reads this pdf reads on here also.

This is pretty good idea. I am trying to find all the available info regarding appropriate temperature of the mix and the that of the solvent. I mean regarding that particular tek and the Max-Ion tek. I know it all about variables, but some reference for temperature values during the whole process ( acid, salting, base & nps stages) would be very useful. I myself am trying to figure out some appropriate values, as i had difference in pulls over my few extractions.

I don't have a thermometer, but i try to keep the warm water bath so that i can hold my fingers in the water without it getting painful. But i don't know if that's 40 or 50 C? Guess i'll have to get a thermometer for the purpose. When i notice the warm bath water gets too warm (wooden stove) i take out my glass bottle, place it on the ground for a few minutes to let it settle for a while, and cool down that water in the pot - slide it sideways on the stove, the colder surface area. Then putting it back again. I repeat this cycle for all the stages, including the nps-pulls.

It will be very useful for people who apply Cyb's teks to share their experience with different temperatures. One thing i haven't tried yet is warming up the nps before putting it into the basified mix (I use Zippo Premium Lighter Fluid). I guess it's assumed more alkaloids will be pulled, but together with that more plant' fats? Or this isn't how it works? Will try it on my next extraction.

You can do either.
Keeping the mix (inc. solvent) warm for the duration tends to pull ALL that the bark has to offer (inc. oils/colouring/other alks) in order to be sure that it is entirely depleted. Cleaning is done later if desired.

Using hot solvent and room temp mix is more desirable if you can mix and pull before total temp equilibrium is reached. The temperature differential should ensure greater saturation of the solvent in a faster time.
More pulls, however, does the same job...just keep pulling till nothing more precipitates in the freeze

that's really useful information, Cyb!
Many thanks!

 

[cyb]

I may ammendment the PDF when I get time.

From the first post in the tek thread:

(Please Note: Heat baths should 'WARM' the mix...NOT heat them excessively.)

This is reiterated in the wiki entry too.

appx 35-40*C is optimal...Warm but not Hot.

You should be able to pick up the neck of the bottle with your fingers without burning them.
As long as the mix is not Hot...All will be well. :thumb_up:

 

[boom123]

my first results with 50g of MH after 4 pulls. The yield in the pyrex looked more whitish rather than after. Now it looks more yellowish but maybe is the type of naptha i used?
Can you say something about the quality from the pictures?

namaste

 

[WhereEaglesDare]

Hello gents,

SWIM is in the process of getting all the ingredients together for their first extraction using Cyb's Hybrid ATB Salt Tek.

SWIM has a couple of questions and wonders if the more experienced extractors can help out with some information.

1) As SWIM is worried about wasting lots of bark he is considering extracting smaller batches than in the tek. In the tek it uses 50g of MHRB but swim is considering use 25 g and running smaller extractions. If SWIM does this does SWIM simply half the amount/volume of the other ingredients in the tek? e.g. 15-20g of salt instead of 30-40g, 30 ml vinegar instead of 60 ml, overall volume in the mixing bottle would be 350 ml instead of 700 ml.


2) SWIM wants to know what salt would be best? Expensive sea salt or normal table salt (that contains anti caking agent - Sodium Ferrocyanide or any other anticaking agent).


3)SWIM wants to know if you can use a plastic turkey baster or does it have to be glass? (will the plastic melt or add unwanted things to the naphtha when extracted with a plastic baster)

4) When using the water bath to heat the mixing bottle is 35 - 40 degree's (temp of the water in the bath no the MHRB mix) about right?

5) What is the best way to store MHRB between extractions? (SWIM had read about freezing the bark to keep it fresh)

6) SWIM is struggling to find testing kits for the final product in the UK. SWIM has emailed a few companies who sell kits but none said they had any that could test for DMT. Can anyone advise SWIM what test kits are best and available from where?

7) SWIM is confused about what DMT N-oxide and how it is formed. Is there any risk SWIM may end up producing other types of DMT other than N,N-DMT with this tek?

8 ) With regards to naphtha, will any lighter fluid be ok (Zippo, Swan, Ronsonol) or does any work better?

 

[3rdI]

come on WhereEaglesDare, all your questions are easily answered with some searching, 1 of your questions is answered 2 post above yours.

 

[cyb]

WhereEaglesDare

All these questions have been asked and answered before. They are all on the forum for you to find.
Spoonfeeding is tiresome...you're a student here remember. (hit the books)

But for the sake of having them in one place:

1. Just do a 50g batch, 25g is really small. Upscaling or downscaling does not mean that you just double up on the amounts. That's not how extractions work.

2. Salt is Salt is Salt...just get salt from the grocery store...But try and get salt that is unadulterated (ie. no extra iodine, anti caking agents)

3. Hard plastic basters work just fine...if you are worried...get a pippette or a glass baster.

4. Temp can be variable. Appx 35-40C is about right...Warm Not Hot.

5. Keep bark in a bag, in the freezer...it will keep well and if it is whole bark...it stays brittle and easier to powder.

6. If you perform the tek correctly, you should not need a test kit.

7. Don't worry about N Oxide...there is little evidence that it ends up in the end product. Here

8. Zippo, Swan, Ronsonol all work well...but Swan has the edge.

 

[WhereEaglesDare]

I did search try searching for them (which is how I found this thread) and a couple I just added as I thought of them (I am on my phone and on a bus so its not as easy to navigate) which included the temperature.

Apologies for asking, I just thought this was the best thread to ask in. A bit worried about screwing things up so was just after some confirmation from more experienced heads. I will try again when I get home on my desktop pc. :lol:

EDIT: and thanks for answering the questions. Apologies again, its just first timer nerves.

 

[WhereEaglesDare]

WhereEaglesDare

All these questions have been asked and answered before. They are all on the forum for you to find.
Spoonfeeding is tiresome...you're a student here remember. (hit the books)

But for the sake of having them in one place:

1. Just do a 50g batch, 25g is really small. Upscaling or downscaling does not mean that you just double up on the amounts. That's not how extractions work.

2. Salt is Salt is Salt...just get salt from the grocery store...But try and get salt that is unadulterated (ie. no extra iodine, anti caking agents)

3. Hard plastic basters work just fine...if you are worried...get a pippette or a glass baster.

4. Temp can be variable. Appx 35-40C is about right...Warm Not Hot.

5. Keep bark in a bag, in the freezer...it will keep well and if it is whole bark...it stays brittle and easier to powder.

6. If you perform the tek correctly, you should not need a test kit.

7. Don't worry about N Oxide...there is little evidence that it ends up in the end product. Here

8. Zippo, Swan, Ronsonol all work well...but Swan has the edge.

Cheers mate, much appreciated.

 

[Du57mi73]

Eagles, I use a hard plastic bastor but only with naptha. There are a few things you have to worry about when using bastors. First is the Plastic itself. I have had xylene eat straight through the same bastor that is perfectly fine with naptha. The second thing is the rubber of the bulb. Ive seen naptha eat through some rubbers. The one i use is from walmart, black bulb. Its good.

 

[WhereEaglesDare]

Thanks I will see what I can find, I will also test the baster with naphtha to make sure it doesn't east through it!

If I use a 750 ml bottle instead of a litre does it make any difference? struggling to find a glass litre bottle.

 

[boom123]

Thanks I will see what I can find, I will also test the baster with naphtha to make sure it doesn't east through it!

If I use a 750 ml bottle instead of a litre does it make any difference? struggling to find a glass litre bottle.

try some bio shops in the juice section, they usually come in 1L bottles.

 

[cyb]

If I use a 750 ml bottle instead of a litre does it make any difference? struggling to find a glass litre bottle.

That's fine..as long as the mix isn't sludgy...you're good to go.

 

[WhereEaglesDare]

Boom - no shops like that where I live/

Cyb- should I still keep overall volume of 700ml or reduce it by say 50 ml and leave out a little of the de-ionised water?

 

[cyb]

should I still keep overall volume of 700ml or reduce it by say 50 ml and leave out a little of the de-ionised water?

Just top up (or reduce) the water...but leave room for the solvent and a bit of an air gap so you can slosh it all around.
Wine bottle can work well if you have a thin pipette/bastor.

 

[boom123]

should I still keep overall volume of 700ml or reduce it by say 50 ml and leave out a little of the de-ionised water?

Just top up (or reduce) the water...but leave room for the solvent and a bit of an air gap so you can slosh it all around.
Wine bottle can work well if you have a thin pipette/bastor.

i did the pull with a syringe, so this might work as well I guess

 

[Earthwalker]

Hey Cyb is it worth doing a defat before the salting ??

And do you no where I could find a thread or learn how to ratio or scale down say on thick lights TEK as the recipe calls for 500g and I'd like to try 100g at first go at it ??