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Datura stramonium: a valuable admixture plant

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69ron said:
You can't stand that I don't agree. That’s fine.
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I can completely stand that you don't agree! I have no problem with that whatsoever. What I can't stand, is that you don't show one single evidence pointing towards your theory, while still trying to convince the general public that you are correct! It is completely meaningless to discuss any scientific subject if one does not point to hard scientific evidence. I find it totally ridiculus to demand that the other part in a discussion should prove your own theory! :roll:

Now, here are some hard scientific evidence pointing out that both the Godronii, Stramonium, Inermis and Tatula variants of Datura stramonium have a highly variable scopolamine and hyoscyamine content. All data are from the seeds.

Unknown variation from South Africa: 51.3% scopolamine, 48.7% hyoscyamine (Naudé, 2007)
Unknown variation from Russia: 20.5% scopolamine, 72.5% hyoscyamine (Mirzamatov & Lutfullin, 1986)
Var. godronii from Poland: 48% scopolamine, 52% hyoscyamine (Mroczek, 2006)
Var. godronii from greenhouse in Bulgaria: 16% scopolamine, 69.6% hyoscyamine (Berkov, 2006)
Var. godronii, unknown location: 12% scopolamine, 88% hyoscyamine (Bucher, 1989)
Var. inermis, unknown location: 31-41% scopolamine, 59-69% hyoscyamine (Bucher, 1989)
Var. stramonium, unknown location: 6-35% scopolamine, 65-94% hyoscyamine (Mroczek, 2006)
Var. stramonium from Poland: 62.3% scopolamine, 37.7% hyoscyamine (Mroczek, 2006)
Var. stramonium from Bulgaria: 36% scopolamine, 55.5% hyoscyamine (Berkov, 2006)
Var. tatula from greenhouse in Bulgaria: 39-47% scopolamine, 53-61% hyoscyamine (Bucher, 1989)
Var. tatula from greenhouse in Bulgaria: 18.1% scopolamine, 50.4% hyoscyamine (Berkov, 2006)
Var. tatula from Poland: 42.3% scopolamine, 57.7% hyoscyamine (Mroczek, 2006)
Var. tatula, unknown location: 47% scopolamine, 53% hyoscyamine (Bucher & Meszaros, 1989)

Of course the alkaloid contents also varies according to growing sites and several other factors. I have never disputed that. With the exception of the first example, the age of the plants are not known (the first example is a young plant (Naudé, 2007)). Therefore one can not be sure that the seeds high in scopolamine are in fact from young plants. It is, however, proven that scopolamine normally dominates in young plants, while hyoscyamine takes over more and more as the plant ages (Demeyer and Dejaegere, 1989 and Naudé, 2007). It is therefore safe to assume that the seeds with roughly a 50:50 ratio are indeed from young plants.

69ron said:
The seeds are always high in hyoscyamine.
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This is now proven to be completely false. The scopolamine content is found to vary from < 1% (Duez, 1985) to 62.3% (Mroczek, 2006), which means the hyoscyamine content varies accordingly! You make it sound like I am talking about one or two freak incidents, when I am in fact talking about a general trend proven by several scientists, only disputed by your own alleged personal experience.

I do frankly not care about your personal experiences. All I am saying is that seeds from young plants have a higher scopolamine content, not that YOUR seeds have a high scopolamine content! I have already stated that seeds from young plants is not likely to be on the market. Until you can prove your wild hypothesis with something more than pretty words, my conclusion will stand. I hear you talking about houndreds of reports, but I can't see one single reference.
 
Nice job finding some very obscure studies. I knew you were going to do that.

I know you had a hard time finding those studies. Look at the sources: Bulgaria, South Africa, Poland, etc. Not a single American study was sited. Those are some really obscure studies and I know you picked them on purpose to slant the numbers in your favor.

They are most likely testing white seeds where they got seeds high in scopolamine, which you can’t get on the market. Like I said some white seeds are high in scopolamine, but people don’t sale white seeds.

Also, who buys Datura stramonium from Bulgaria, South Africa and Poland? I sure don't. The seeds I get are grown in the USA.

Come on...dig up some obscure American studies now...I'm waiting to see them now...this is fun.
 
Ah, the studies are obscure because they are not from the USA? What kind of ignorant statement is that? Do your racism really go as far as to include plants? Plants are inferior if they are not grown in the states? This is getting more and more ridiculus...

As you can see from the numbers, no matter what growing conditions (hot country (South Africa), cold countries (Poland, Bulgaria) or greenhouse) or no matter the variant of Datura stramonium (Godronii, Stramonium, Inermis or Tatula), the scopolamine content varies A LOT!

To your information, every one of these studies was found in the article from EFSA I attached. You know, the one you bragged about having read? And no, I did not slant the numbers in my favor, I included every single study of seeds in the article that stated both scopolamine and hyoscyamine levels. To your information, the studies from the USA in that article did not even state the hyoscyamine content.

I have never said that the seeds you normally buy are not high in hyoscyamine. In fact, they have from < 1% to 10% scopolamine content (which usually means from 90% to > 99% hyoscyamine), as they are from older plants. What I have said, is that younger plants have roughly 50 % scopolamine, something we that grow our own ethnobotanicals should keep in mind! And that is all it was, a friendly advise to the fellow botanists in here!

I have nothing to gain to have right, I just want the public to know what is facts and what is myths. I would be happy if you could provide some conflicting studies, but to this date you have not provided ONE SINGLE reference. Let me repeat that, I would be more than happy to see some research supporting your hypothesis!
 
Even those obscure tests show the seeds are high in hyoscyamine and not scopolamine. If the tests were only of black seeds, the ones available on the market, you’ll find they are always high in hyoscyamine.

Look at your own obscure data:

Unknown variation from Russia: 20.5% scopolamine, 72.5% hyoscyamine (Mirzamatov & Lutfullin, 1986)
Var. godronii from Poland: 48% scopolamine, 52% hyoscyamine (Mroczek, 2006)
Var. godronii from greenhouse in Bulgaria: 16% scopolamine, 69.6% hyoscyamine (Berkov, 2006)
Var. godronii, unknown location: 12% scopolamine, 88% hyoscyamine (Bucher, 1989)
Var. inermis, unknown location: 31-41% scopolamine, 59-69% hyoscyamine (Bucher, 1989)
Var. stramonium, unknown location: 6-35% scopolamine, 65-94% hyoscyamine (Mroczek, 2006)
Var. stramonium from Bulgaria: 36% scopolamine, 55.5% hyoscyamine (Berkov, 2006)
Var. tatula from greenhouse in Bulgaria: 39-47% scopolamine, 53-61% hyoscyamine (Bucher, 1989)
Var. tatula from greenhouse in Bulgaria: 18.1% scopolamine, 50.4% hyoscyamine (Berkov, 2006)
Var. tatula from Poland: 42.3% scopolamine, 57.7% hyoscyamine (Mroczek, 2006)
Var. tatula, unknown location: 47% scopolamine, 53% hyoscyamine (Bucher & Meszaros, 1989)

Those all show hyoscyamine to be the major alkaloid. Of the 13 tests you outlined, 11 show I’m right.

Only these two show seeds high in scopolamine, one is an unknown variant, but in these cases they still contain a substantial amount of hyoscyamine. I am sure these are white seeds which you can’t buy:

Unknown variation from South Africa: 51.3% scopolamine, 48.7% hyoscyamine (Naudé, 2007)
Var. stramonium from Poland: 62.3% scopolamine, 37.7% hyoscyamine (Mroczek, 2006)
 
Evening Glory said:
I have never said that the seeds you normally buy are not high in hyoscyamine. In fact, they have from < 1% to 10% scopolamine content (which usually means from 90% to > 99% hyoscyamine), as they are from older plants. What I have said, is that younger plants have roughly 50 % scopolamine, something we that grow our own ethnobotanicals should keep in mind! And that is all it was, a friendly advise to the fellow botanists in here!
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Look, I've only been talking about black seeds. Did you ever hear me talk about taking white seeds that are not ready to be used? Not once did I ever mention anything about using white seeds.

I know some white seeds are high in scopolamine. This is a well known fact. If you harvest the seed pods before the seeds are ready to be harvested, they are white. That’s not a proper seed.

That’s like telling me applies taste terrible because you picked the apple before it was ready to be picked while I’m telling you apples are sweet because I only eat apples that are ripe.

You can get studies that show that apples contain almost no fructose. Of course those are of applies that are not ripe. Such a study means nothing to the general public who only eats ripe apples.

The same applies to the studies done on the seeds. If the study includes white seeds that are not properly formed seeds, then the study is of little meaning to me.

If people are opening seed pods themselves when they are not ripe, and ingesting white seeds, that’s a whole different subject altogether. No where in any of the talks I’ve had about Datura stramonium seeds did I ever mention anything about using seeds that are not ripe.

When the seed pods open on their own, that’s when the seeds are ready for use. And they are black, and always high in hyoscyamine. If you are breaking the seed pods open yourself before they are ready and you are ingesting seeds that are not fully developed, then none of what I've been talking about applies at all. That’s not a fully developed seed.

The dosage and alkaloid profile of a white seed is different from a ripe black seed. SWIM has never used a white seed, and never saw them being sold anywhere.

Now the black seeds have nothing to do with the maturity of the plant. Whether it’s a black seed from a plant that’s about to die, or the first black seed made by the plant, the black seeds are always high in hyoscyamine. So if you wait for the seed pods to open and harvest your seeds at that time when the seeds are ready to be harvested, you’ll get black seeds that are high in hyoscyamine, and what I said applies.
 
You make this sound like we have a fight: scopolamine team with Evening Glory versus hyoscyamine team with 69ron! Your argument style is so ridiculus, you do in fact use Ad hominem all the time, with the only intention to decieve the general public to believe you are right. Please, can you show some scientific support for all your claims? Is that really so much to ask for?

My intention is only to bring up (what I regard as) the fact that young seeds does have higher scopolamine content than seeds from older plants. This is only to help the public, it is not an attack on you. Seriously ron, don't you see that your argument style is close to absurd?

69ron said:
Those all show hyoscyamine to be the major alkaloid. Of the 13 tests you outlined, 11 show I’m right.
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What I did with the numbers, was to prove your statement "the seeds are always high in hyoscyamine" to be completely false. 13 out of 13 tests show that to be false. I have repeatedly stated that scopolamine often is found in aroundt 50%, and as you see from the numbers, also often found from 20-40% and sometimes even greater than 50%. Again, my intention is only to show that scopolamine are in fact found in MUCH larger numbers than the 4-19% you operate with! Even if hyoscyamine is the major alkaloid in many of the tests, I am only pointing out that scopolamine often is found in large amounts, something you have repeatedly disputed! I have now proven this, it is your job to debunk it if you want to prove it is wrong.

Now, for the white seeds versus black seeds. This is very interesting! I have no information on the color of the seeds from these studies, so this is definitely worth taking up! You do, however, again twist the facts in your direction, trying to make it sound like these tests show white seeds. When in fact, it is not known what kind of seeds it is tested, and when you also have not proven that white seeds in fact are higher in scopolamine than black seeds. If you can provide some scientific litterature that prove your statement about white seeds, it would be extremely nice. I have repeatedly asked for this now, in perhaps 10 posts, but all I can get back are more statements without any proof whatsoever.

Is it really too much to ask for that one backs up his or hers statements with facts? I have kept on asking about this in every post in this discussion, yet I have not seen one single reference or even a hint in a direction I can find something that support your claims.
 
Does anybody have an explanation for the differences in effects of these seeds, while as far as i know both hyosciamine and scopolamine affect the same receptors?
 
Evening Glory said:
69ron said:
Those all show hyoscyamine to be the major alkaloid. Of the 13 tests you outlined, 11 show I’m right.
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What I did with the numbers, was to prove your statement "the seeds are always high in hyoscyamine" to be completely false. 13 out of 13 tests show that to be false.
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You didn't even read the numbers from your own post! What the heck! 11 out of 13 showed they are high are hyoscyamine and support what I said. The rest are from white seeds I am sure.

Evening Glory said:
Now, for the white seeds versus black seeds. This is very interesting! I have no information on the color of the seeds from these studies, so this is definitely worth taking up! You do, however, again twist the facts in your direction, trying to make it sound like these tests show white seeds. When in fact, it is not known what kind of seeds it is tested, and when you also have not proven that white seeds in fact are higher in scopolamine than black seeds.
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I'm sorry, I'm not going to spend my time digging up the articles that talk about it, I know it pisses you off, but I don't really care. The white seeds are known to be often high in scopolamine. This is a fact. Do the research yourself, and you'll find that out. The fact that you don't know it already shows you didn't do nearly as much research as I have already done.

You think I'm making this up. Once you do the proper research you'll see that the white seeds that are not ready to be picked do contain high amounts of scopolamine and that the black seeds always contain high amounts of hyoscyamine. I've already done research on this long ago and that's what I know from my own research and SWIM’s own experience of using thousands of these seeds.

I can make assumptions on those tests you posted because I know more about the subject of white seeds than you do. Keep researching, you'll find I'm right about that.

Once you do more research and find out I’m correct about the white seeds, you’ll see that study you posted in a totally different light like I do. But until then, you’re taking that one study and getting the data from that study and applying it wrong. They used white seeds where the seeds are high in scopolamine. I know because the other tests out there that compare white seeds to proper black seeds show that to be the case.
 
I would very much like to believe you, but I can not believe it without any references! How can you say you don't have time, when you have used at least an hour or two in discussing this already? Show me the scientific supports of your claims!

As you can not prove one single thing of what you are saying, I stil would like to let all you folks know:

ONLY seeds from older Datura stramonium plants will have the desired effects, if you use seeds from young plants, you risk a scopolamine content of 40-60%!
 
I took a look at some papers S. Berkov et al fitotherpia 2006

The above paper shows that all parts of datura stramonium, var stramonium,tatula, and godronni contain higher levels of hyoscyamine then scopolamine. They weren't as rigorously quantitative as they could have been but its still clear the trend for higher hyoscyamine.

Does anyone know if the datura with purple leaves is datura stramonium var tatula or datura metel? How can you tell difference they are both supposed to have purple flowers.
 
burnt said:
I want to know how you can tell the difference between scopolamine and hyoscyamine?

Without chemical analysis you can never assume that one seed has higher levels of either or. Unless of course you know what the pure compound feels like.
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When chewing for example inoxia (high scopolamine) or stramonium (high hyoscyamine) seeds, There's a very
different alkaloid taste from the different seeds.

...love those stramonium, they taste like medicine cabinet=)...
 
burnt said:
I took a look at some papers S. Berkov et al fitotherpia 2006

The above paper shows that all parts of datura stramonium, var stramonium,tatula, and godronni contain higher levels of hyoscyamine then scopolamine. They weren't as rigorously quantitative as they could have been but its still clear the trend for higher hyoscyamine.
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Yes, all Datura stramonium plants with a certain age has a majority of hyoscyamine, but younger plants tend to have a roughly 50:50 ratio. It is important to know if your seeds have 10 % or 40 % scopolamine, as the effects will be quite different. It looks like the best way to be sure of this, is to only use seeds from older plants, and only use brown/black seeds, not white ones.

burnt said:
Does anyone know if the datura with purple leaves is datura stramonium var tatula or datura metel? How can you tell difference they are both supposed to have purple flowers.
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Datura metel has a slightly different leaf shape, it is less ragged than the leaves of Datura stramonium. In addition, Datura stramonium var. Tatula has a distinct lighter color than Datura metel, and is often white at the edge of the flower.
 
Datura metel has a slightly different leaf shape, it is less ragged than the leaves of Datura stramonium. In addition, Datura stramonium var. Tatula has a distinct lighter color than Datura metel, and is often white at the edge of the flower.
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Thanks for info. SWIM thinks he had a metel plant. I got attacked by insects but seeds are mature so will plant again next year.
 
imPsimon said:
burnt said:
I want to know how you can tell the difference between scopolamine and hyoscyamine?

Without chemical analysis you can never assume that one seed has higher levels of either or. Unless of course you know what the pure compound feels like.
Click to expand...

When chewing for example inoxia (high scopolamine) or stramonium (high hyoscyamine) seeds, There's a very
different alkaloid taste from the different seeds.

...love those stramonium, they taste like medicine cabinet=)...
Click to expand...

Taste is one thing, but hyoscyamine is a stimulant, and scopolamine is a sedative. They feel completely different.

Try 5 black fully developed Datura stramonium seeds. There’s noticeable euphoria and noticeable but mild stimulation felt. The following day try 5 Datura inoxia seeds, and there’s noticeable but mild sedation felt and little euphoria if any. At that dose they feel nothing alike at all. No one would ever confuse the two.

Even at high doses they are very different. Both can cause delirium, but scopolamine makes you sleepy, almost in a coma like state, while hyoscyamine tends to make people more active. Hyoscyamine is considered by some to be more dangerous to use as a deliriant because people delirious on hyoscyamine tend to walk around bumping into walls, hitting people etc., while people delirious on scopolamine usually have a hard time moving around and just sit there.

SWIM knows how to isolate scopolamine from hyoscyamine from both D. inoxia and D. stramonium and has experienced them extremely diluted in pure form.

NOTE: it is VERY DANGEROUS TO EXTRACT HYOSCYAMINE AND SCOPOLAMINE. Do not attempt it. And no, I will NOT post the tech for it. If you want to know how it’s done, do the research yourself. I will not help you. There are several techs out there available on the web detailing every step designed for professionals, and should only be used by people who really know what they are doing. Concentrated scopolamine and hyoscyamine are very dangerous to have around. A very tiny amount can kill you. Scopolamine can soak into your skin and kill you. It only takes a few milligrams to kill you. Safe doses are below 1.5 milligrams. That’s a very tiny amount. It’s very dangerous, and more dangerous than pure strychnine is.
 
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