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[Guyomech]

The current scientific position is that, although sexuality isn't necessarily defined at conception, it is pretty much ironclad by birth as a result of the mother's hormones and other environmental factors. And Pandora is correct, many species display homosexual behavior. So it's not that it doesnt fit the basic Darwinian scheme, except if you look at it in its most simplistic form. Apparently having some non- procreating adults in the community is part and parcel to overall species health and prosperity, or else natural selection would have weeded it out.

And it's true that American evangelicals have a huge influence on the Ugandan situation. How these people can go over there and preach this, knowing that their actions will lead to torture and death of individuals, and then still feel like they are somehow carrying Christ's message... Well, I stopped trying to wrap my head around that mindset a long time ago.

 

[Infundibulum]

This video just occurred to me

Well... First I thought the video was a joke, a staged event showing how stupid and irrational a homophobia can get. Second, I laughed. Only later I realised this was probably not meant as a joke... :shock:

Concerning the "genetic flaw" discussion. To my knowledge there is no scientific evidence showing that homosexuality has its source in genetic information. Nobody has found the "homosexual gene" so far and IMO will never find any...

But isn't it a straw man argument here? Of course there never might be something as a "homosexuality gene". Just as most of the human traits are the result of both environmental and genetic factors, why wouldn't be the same for sexual orientation? Things in biology are never black or white. A gene or specific loci in humans dictating homosexual behaviour might have not been pinpointed (or might be too controversial to accept.further test atm) but at least studies in identical twins indicate some genetic component to adult sexual orientation.

 

[Guyomech]

...and if it was purely genetic, it wouldn't be passed along through the generations very successfully, for obvious reasons. Like most things in life, it's far more complex than that.

 

[Michal_R]

Yes, sure... I don´t have any problem with that, Infundibulum and Guyomech. Although you have more knowledge on the topic than me, we are not holding different positions. In my previous post, I wasn´t presenting my own viewpoint.

My previous post was motivated by SeekerOfTruth´s above "DISCLAIMER". SeekerOfTruth rightly pointed out that the "genetic flaw" idea is still, even today(!), used by some people to justify their hatred and homophobia. I was writing against that particular argument (i.e. that homosexuality is a "genetic flaw", therefore residing in genes). I was not "explaining" homosexuality.


Just to explain where the argument in my previous post came from. I used the argument "if you say it is in genes, prove it." I think that such argument might be used each time somebody claims that there is a connection between human action (behaviour, taste, preferences etc...) and genetic information. If one claims that something is "caused" by genes, one should be able to prove that at the genetic level. Otherwise it is just a speculation unsuported by any data.

DISCLAIMER: Potentially Offensive Viewpoint(s).

A provoking viewpoint i've heard tossed around is the idea that Homosexuality is directly against the evolution of the species. The concept being humans must procreate to survive as a species, homosexual's must therefor be a genetic flaw as they cannot prolong the race.

In counter to this we live in the age of science changing breeding trends. We have more then enough offspring, so maybe evolution chooses homosexuality to balance the species in times of over breeding?

All that being said, fundamentally the concept is sickening, as long as they are not harming others, no one has any right to be choosing what others do or how they live.

 

[jamie]

"In counter to this we live in the age of science changing breeding trends. We have more then enough offspring, so maybe evolution chooses homosexuality to balance the species in times of over breeding?"


"I agree, the Ying and yang effect."


I know that you guys probly never meant it this way, but thats just a totally ignorant view to take. People often make these sorts of statements but it's really just rediculous. Homosexuality is nothing new okay..people need to get this already. IT'S NOTHING NEW!

Then the spanish came to south america they found some kind of person who exhibited male and female aspects and often engaged in what would today be called "homosexual" affairs, in virtually every tribe. Most often these people were also spiritual leaders of the tribe, healers, shamans w/e..This aspect was heavily stamped out durring the inquisition and basically written out of history.

In North American native culture "homosexuality" has always been a common thing. These people were actaully respected as holy people, becomming healers and shamans and wise people..it was highly honerable to have one of these people in ones family. They were not reguarded as male or female..they are called "2 spirited" people..commonly called "Burdosh". I am not talking about hermaphrodites here..I am talking about a "man" or a "women" who displays aspects of both their gender as they appear and the opposite. What we call "homosexuality" and "bisexuality" is normal for these people to engage in, but they do not refer to it as such. To call a burdosh peson "gay" would not really be correct..becasue they are neither man nor women..they are both.

Oden was highly feminized and basically the Norse shaman god. He was rediculed by the other gods for his feminism and his practice of seid magick(which was thought to be womens work) ..you can find many gay and lesbien norse people who have entire spiritual world views based around Odenism. It would seem that homosexuality was likely a normal thing in norse culture for some people..the same sort of "homosexual" practices have been observed basically on every corner of the earth with these people being revered and respected as high advanced spiritual people usually taking up some sort of shamanic role.

So, the idea that this is some new way for nature to regulate human expansion is just stupid. It's just a sort of ignorance that marginalizes a group of people in a way that is not all that appealing really. I know that people dont intend it that way, but people also should just be more educated in general.

It is only our culture in the west, and maybe some more abrahamic religious cultures that seem to marginalize and oppress and just not accept gay people. It just goes to show how truely advanced we are for all the things our ego takes pride in about who we have become. I find that the Native American culture was FAR more socially advanced and accepting of others differences than this culture. To see the differences in others for what they can bring to the rest, and incorperate that into the larger culture in a positive way is true advancement. This is where we need work.

 

[Vodsel]

Great post, jamie.

Our society has a lot of cultural roots in abrahamic religious cultures. Just think about it, guys. They were (and are) patriarchal, authoritarian cultures. Submitting women. The same cultures that established circumcision to discourage masturbation and control sexual pleasure in men. While classic illustrated greeks had no problem with homosexuality, some warmongering, expansionistic, monotheistic cultures made all decisions for their people including how their sex life was supposed to be, from the beginning. All to the glory of this state/father figure that did not hesitate to endorse raping enemy women or stoning cheating wives, while considering homosexuality an abomination, a wrong way to channel male energy, instead of fighting and breeding more cannon fodder.

And nature doesn't care if we are 3,5 or 10 billion. We care. Nature was not killing baby girls to bluntly control population growth. We did. So if we care about overpopulation, wouldn't a reasonable step be not judging homosexuals, but rather welcoming them?

Homophobia is one the saddest examples of irrationality.

 

[SeekerOfTruths]

Wasn't this a topic about how such crazy lunacy could ever be conceived? I was going for the planted seed, an idea of how it spreads.

Truth be told we can argue all day long, but the neuroscience of why we experience anything is pretty much a big giant question mark.

At the end of the day my last statement is where I stand, regardless of what this is, how it occurs, why anyone prefers anything. Its your right to be free to your opinion, but unless I'm harming others you have no right to force me into any behavior. Now the last part becomes a very slippery slope..

 

[Riitz]

"Come ride with me,
Through the veins of history,
I'll show you how God
falls asleep on the job.
And how can we win,
When fools can be kings"

- Knights Of Cydonia by Muse

There always have been and always will be people that simply can't compreend what's outside of their little box.
There are still many people that discriminate homosexuals, people with different racial / social group, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or gender identity.
The worst problem is when these fools are "kings" in their countries.

Small minded people...

 

[Michal_R]

Thanks for the above post, Jamie.

Homophobia is one the saddest examples of irrationality.

Yes, indeed.

 

[The Electric Hippy]

Concerning the "genetic flaw" discussion. To my knowledge there is no scientific evidence showing that homosexuality has its source in genetic information. Nobody has found the "homosexual gene" so far and IMO will never find any...

The Gay Gene: New Evidence Supports an Old Hypothesis

If a so-called "gay gene," exists, what is the evolutionary logic behind it? A new study offers evidence supporting the so-called "balancing selection hypothesis."

bigthink.com

Biology and sexual orientation - Wikipedia (see 1.7.1 on the left side for a quick link)

Health & Sex

Find intimacy and sex advice for any relationship for a healthy and fulfilling love life.

www.webmd.com

It's very far from proven, but there's certainly evidence.

 

[mescaline-man]

**

 

[Jin]

There always have been and always will be people that simply can't compreend what's outside of they'r little box.
There are still many people that discriminate homosexuals, people with different racial / social group, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or gender identity.
The worst problem is when these fools are "kings" in their countries.

exactly people in power have nothing better to do then prosecute other people for various reasons

 

[Sky Motion]

we are our own worst enemy

 

[tango]

And how is America's enthusiasm for locking tens of thousands of people up for possession of scheduled chemicals any less appalling?

 

[Infundibulum]

And how is America's enthusiasm for locking tens of thousands of people up for possession of scheduled chemicals any less appalling?

Who says it's less appalling?

Or do you mean that Uganda's anti-homosexuality laws come second to our appalling priorities and we should be discussing that instead? Please explain yourself - also remember that this thread is about discussing Uganda's homosexuality laws, not USA's drug laws.

 

[arcanum]

Here's a map of homosexuality laws around the world.

Uganda isn't the only terrifying place:

homosexuality laws worldwide

Indeed, and looking at that map, it's pretty cleaar that draconian anti-gay laws are prevalent in Islamic countries. The Christian missonary theory may have left it's mark on some backward thinking African countries. But it's clear that Christian influenced societies are not to blame.

 

[DMT Psychonaut]

1,500 species have been observed to exhibit homosexual behavior

Only one of them exhibits homophobia. :?

 

[Pandora]

Really great post Vodsel - thanks man.