DIfferent aproach to A/B

[Spiralout]

Hey folks

I'm wondering why not boil your bark in acidic solution a few times, filter bark, reduce solution
then continue from there. In my case I would add salt then lye then pull with naptha and do a backsalt.



Any and all input apreciated :thumb_up:

 

[Spaced Out 2]

Wouldn't that be the just of most of the A/B teks, most of them appear to involve simmering in acidic water? I wouldn't see why it would hurt to boil a few times and reduce.
But don't hold me to it as I use STB methods so maybe someone will chime in that frequents A/B techniques.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do:thumb_up:

 

[NotTwo]

I think most of the A/B teks suggest boiling in acidic water, pouring off the liquid, add more acidic water, pour off and repeat that cycle a few time. Not sure if you're suggesting here to simply boil it several times in the same liquid (?).

The thing about boiling in acidic water is that a load of the liquid is left in the mulch when you pour off hence maybe 25% of your dmt:salt is left in the mulch. By adding more liquid and boiling again you are left next time with 25% of 25% = 6.25%, next time 1.5%, next time 0.4%, etc.

If you kept the same liquid there each time and didn't pour off then you'd have the problem of how to get the remaining liquid out of the mulch. I squeeze inside a triple layer of cheese cloth but this only gets so much out.

 

[Nitegazer]

NotTwo is correct, and the question is addressed in this FAQ:

Can I make one long cook instead of 3 shorter ones

Three separate boils each with fresh (or acidified) water is best.

 

[Spiralout]

im sorry i didnt word this right.

I meant to do a acid boil filter bark and then do maybe another 4 boils collecting all the solution and then reducing. So you should be left with a small volume of liquid with no bark making for a more manageble extraction and hopefully less oil although a backsalt would still be a good idea.

Thanks

 

[Spiralout]

So I guess this is a basic a/b :? This will be my next way of doing it.

Thanks all!

 

[pitubo]

So I guess this is a basic a/b :? This will be my next way of doing it.

Lol. Learning something new everyday is magic.

If you want, you can shake the collected and reduced acidic tea with naphtha and then separate and discard the naphta layer. That is how you defat, it would reduce the amount of fats and waxes extracted later when you basify the tea and shake it with fresh naphtha to pull the spice.

 

[Spiralout]

I plan on doing 5 boils on the bark with vinegar, filtering bark everytinme and keeping soltution, then reducing acid solution, adding salt and basing with sodium hydroxide adn then pulling with naptha about 5 times and back salting the naptha pulls with vinegar. Also plan on getting a seperatory funnel to seperate the naptha pulls from base liquid.THink this should work well.

When I get arounf to it I will post pictures and method of everything I did.

Thanks for input and thank you everyone for input.


anymore always appresciated.

:twisted:

 

[benzyme]

there's no good reason to add salt to an acidic solution, unless it's a margarita.

people add salt after they add the nonpolar solvent, to assist migration of the free base molecule from the polar phase into the nonpolar solvent.

 

[Spiralout]

Right, I understand the salt is the help push the alkaloids out of the basic solution into the nps. I meant that as in it wouldn't seem to matter when i add the salt to the final reduced acidic solution but in actuallality i would probably add the salt after basing with sodium hydroxided.

I need to be more clear in my writing, my heads been kinda foggy lately.

I plan on getting a seperatory funnel; I'm thinking a one liter should be ok for a decent extraction after reducing acidic solution and removing bark and basing . Would you be able to go about mixing nps with basic solution in funnel or would that be best done in another vessel and then transefered to funnel for seperation? Also, what kind of vessel/flask/container would be best for the rest of the extraction? Such as adding the sodium hydroxide and salt to acidic solution and the backsalting phase.

I would like to move beyond "kitchen chemistry" and don't want to do another extraction unless I have all the ideal equipment and materials. This probably won't be carried out for awhile as I need to sort some other priorities in my life and study the chemistry involved (and in general ) a bit.

Thanks for input benz

 

[Gowpen]

Right, I understand the salt is the help push the alkaloids out of the basic solution into the nps. I meant that as in it wouldn't seem to matter when i add the salt to the final reduced acidic solution but in actuallality i would probably add the salt after basing with sodium hydroxided.

I need to be more clear in my writing, my heads been kinda foggy lately.

I plan on getting a seperatory funnel; I'm thinking a one liter should be ok for a decent extraction after reducing acidic solution and removing bark and basing . Would you be able to go about mixing nps with basic solution in funnel or would that be best done in another vessel and then transefered to funnel for seperation? Also, what kind of vessel/flask/container would be best for the rest of the extraction? Such as adding the sodium hydroxide and salt to acidic solution and the backsalting phase.

I would like to move beyond "kitchen chemistry" and don't want to do another extraction unless I have all the ideal equipment and materials. This probably won't be carried out for awhile as I need to sort some other priorities in my life and study the chemistry involved (and in general ) a bit.

Thanks for input benz

I use an old tea towel to filtre the bark...... The particles are not too small and the bark stays in the cloth. I have seen Indian women filtering muddy water to crystal clear with a few layers of silk. No need to do this to the acid/bark mixture IMHO. Good luck. and yes be VERY carefull in the kitchen.
G

 

[quetzalcoatl42]

Hey folks

I'm wondering why not boil your bark in acidic solution a few times, filter bark, reduce solution
then continue from there. In my case I would add salt then lye then pull with naptha and do a backsalt.



Any and all input apreciated :thumb_up:

standard procedure... did you even read the teks ?

you can also do that with leaves (Chaliponga, Chacruna, although its better if you defat in acidic phase)

 

[1ce]

Defat (wash step) is moot if your contaminating source (bark) remains present. Don't filter? Don't bother, backsalt and A->B again.

 

[Spiralout]

Quetz, yes I have read plenty of teks and understand the basic chemistry though not anywhere near as much as I would like to. This would neccesitate me studying outside of the forum. And like 1ce said defatting during acidic phase is redundant; it makesmore sense to backsalt.

1ce what I am wondering is if I did enough acidic boils on the source material would it retrieve most (never going to be all) of the alks. I am not familiaar with using a seperatory funnel.

I was thinking of doing multiple acid boils, filtering, reducing, basing, adding salt and then pulling. After that a backsalt and another a/b.

I'm not sure about leaving source material in the first a/b as I would think some particles would get stuck when using the seperatory funnel...

Thanks everyone

 

[NotTwo]

Defat (wash step) is moot if your contaminating source (bark) remains present.

Yes, exactly!

In any case I've found that defatting at this stage is of almost zilch value. Just as a small experiment try this - I have! Defat with a reasonable about of solvent, take your solvent and put it into a clean glass container, ideally wide flat bottomed. Let it evapourate or encourage to do so with warmth or a fan. When there's no more solvent left check out what fats, oils, gunk is left in the container. My experience is practically none.

 

[Spiralout]

ya ive tried defating at acidic stage before. My guess is the high ph lyses the cells and releases more oil

 

[1ce]

I just added an absurd amount of naps, and washed in a sep funnel at ~60C, then boiled off excess water and added 10% NaOH until I reach PH 12.5-13. I'll let this cool to room temp and proceed with the extraction.

I usually use chloroform, however any solvent will work. I pull my freebased alks into solvent, and separate it off. I wash my organic layer with distilled water (preboiled to drive off any dissolved CO2). I don't bother drying the solvent since it has a high VP any resisual water won't be around for long.

After solvent evaporates I add heptane to the container and heat it until boiling. Separate off heptane into a clean dish that has been further cleaned with acetone. I let solution crystallize at room temperature, then move to refridgerator.

Hexane also works great, I prefer heptane due to it's higher boiling point, which means more gradual precipitation.

pretty similar to all the teks our there. I always make sure the equipment I use is clean clean clean CLEAN.