DMT Amnesia and Norepinephrine

[FlagellaStink]

I've been interested in the causation behind DMT amnesia and how it can help explain the experience itself, and tried looking to dreams for some help. Now dream amnesia, although far more investigated, doesn't have any concrete explanation either - as is the case with most things regarding the brain. However, there is one working theory related to norepinephrine during REM sleep that I think could help in explaining DMT amnesia. Norepinephrine, among other neurotransmitters, contributes to memory formation and condensation, yet it's almost completely inactive during sleep, especially REM sleep, which is when dreams are at their peak - basically meaning that the low levels of norepinephrine stops the brain from creating memories of much of our dream experiences. This association is the strongest neurological argument as to why we forget our dreams, so I wondered if there was any parallel between the neurotransmitter and the DMT experience.

I couldn't find any research regarding norepinephrine levels during or after the DMT experience. Does anybody have any knowledge of this? If norepinephrine levels also drop or are inhibited after DMT administration, then we could probably conclude that similar to a dream, the DMT experience is largely forgotten because our brain is simply less capable of creating memories at all. However, if norepinephrine levels remain constant throughout and subsequent to DMT administration, then this would imply that there is a causation separate from that of dream amnesia in the case of DMT. This, I believe, is the more fascinating potential answer, because it would most likely mean that the brain is capable of creating long-term memories under the influence DMT, but far less capable of retrieving the memories after the experience.

This could possibly mean that substantial memories are still contained in the brain after the DMT experience, but are unable to be re-experienced (like trying to put a Blu-Ray disc into a VHS player), or the encoded information of the experience is simply incapable of existing in the brain without the presence of DMT. The feeling of 'remembering' the DMT-space and all your past experiences with the substance are very commonly reported, and this could possibly be due to the idea that DMT is needed to re-access these contained memories rather than the idea that the memories largely fade post-trip.

For anybody with any computer experience at all, this could be compared to, say, a .RAR file. Your computer, in it's 'sober' state, is incapable of accessing the contents of a .RAR file. It can download it, it can store it, but it can't extract the information - that is, unless you have a program like WinRAR which could open it for you (WinRAR in this example being DMT). When you download WinRAR onto your computer and it is integrated into the system, the contents of the .RAR file are now available to you. Then, ten or fifteen minutes later, you remove WinRAR from your computer, and .RAR files are now, once again, unavailable to you. It seems like common sense really, but if this is the case, the question is what is that content from the DMT experience that the brain is incapable of extracting in the sober state?

However, this is a question I don't think should be pursued until we actually know it's the case, which is why I ask if anybody has that info on norepinephrine activity. There are endless interesting questions to explore, but until we rule out what isn't the case, everything else is pure theory, so evidence of substance needs to be found if we want to get any closer to understanding the fascinating substance itself.

Thoughts?

 

[The Traveler]

Together with 'State-Dependent Memory' this sounds like an interesting hypothesis for DMT amnesia.

Maybe certain scientific studies about this subject (not DMT perse) can be found for this phenomenon?


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[FlagellaStink]

Together with 'State-Dependent Memory' this sounds like an interesting hypothesis for DMT amnesia.

Maybe certain scientific studies about this subject (not DMT perse) can be found for this phenomenon?

I'd never heard of state-dependent memory, that was really interesting. I'm sure it applies to DMT, probably to an even more extreme degree. Although, more research would need to be done in human DMT studies targetting this sort of thing to actually verify it.

Because with DMT, I think it could very well not just be state-dependent recall, but state-exclusive. If the amnesia isn't due to memory-forming inhibition, I believe it gives much more scientific credibility to the notions of perceiving new colors and seeing impossible shapes, which would, by definition, be state-exclusive. Thanks!

 

[pantostao]

Lots of people report that they can remember the DMT experience better while under the influence of harmalas, either from caapi or rue. This norepinephrine hypothesis can also relate to that: MAO-A is in charge of degrading both serotonine and norepinephrine.

 

[The Traveler]

To me it seems that the separate hypothesis are relatively easy to understand and maybe even possible as part of the puzzle, putting them all together it will be the complex part since it all needs to fit perfectly, especially since we are working with an incomplete set of data for now.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[0Kelvin]

Recently I have observed that I seem to forget about the details of my experiences quite quickly, similar to how a dream fades after waking up.

During my honeymoon phase I used to remember things quite vividly, with breakthrough experiences still being very present to this day.
These days I use more harmalas than I used to and now I experience some sort of amnesia, with only fragments that I can remember.

I still feel very well rested and very grateful when I open my eyes for the first time after everything faded back to normal. All I know for sure is that it was quite a lot to take in, maybe just too much.

I don't do any other substance these days, except for coffee.

 

[FlagellaStink]

These days I use more harmalas than I used to and now I experience some sort of amnesia, with only fragments that I can remember.

Huh, so even though harmalas should be increasing norepinephrine activity, and presumably increasing the capacity for memory, in your case more harmala use led to less memory of the experience. Obviously, correlation doesn't equal causation, but that's still very interesting.

What would you say about the clarity of your memories over time? For me, anything more complex than overlay patterns is remembered in notions. I can think about my trip and remember what happened, but when I try to picture what I actually saw, I realize I only remember the outline/idea of what I was experiencing, and I'm not actually able to envision it. When you say that you experience amnesia now, would you say that what fragments you do remember have become fuzzier, or just that you remember less of the experience? Hopefully that question makes sense.

 

[Sabnock1990]

It's worth noting one can add things of a memory-enhancing nature to DMT or Harmalas or DMT+Harmalas, like supplements or herbs to help aid memory, something that might be worth playing around with.

 

[0Kelvin]

Yes, that's why I felt I need to chime in with my experience.

Regarding the clarity of my memories over time, I would say that I can remember certain visions very well.
There was one instance, when I smoked some enhanced leave and I ended up in a room with an artifact placed in it's center. I could describe it in detail as I remember it so vividly. When I just think of it, it feels like that room is still out/in there somewhere. That was about a year ago.

These days the themes are very chaotic (in a good way though). There's too much going on to take in. The only thing I remember is that it's beautiful and mind-blowing... and even though I usually get the message "focus, pay attention!", I usually don't bring much back.

Edit: I wanted to quote FlagellaStink's post, but still need to figure out the quote function.

 

[FlagellaStink]

It's worth noting one can add things of a memory-enhancing nature to DMT or Harmalas or DMT+Harmalas, like supplements or herbs to help aid memory, something that might be worth playing around with.

Yeah, this might be interesting to pursue. I'm curious if even the best memories people bring back are actually accurate memories, or what things are removed or not re-experienced in memory. That's a pretty difficult thing to study though when half the time you can barely remember the contents of the experience, so MAOIs could possibly alleviate a lot of this.

 

[Anarchos]

DMT amnesia simply means you were not ready for that amount. With meditation practice and years of integration it becomes possible to remember more.

 

[FlagellaStink]

DMT amnesia simply means you were not ready for that amount. With meditation practice and years of integration it becomes possible to remember more.

This definitely seems the case. But I'm more curious about the reasoning behind why meditation and integration is able to enhance memory, and what constitutes "not being ready" for a certain DMT experience. Does meditation enhance endogenous-DMT, allowing for the access of state-dependent memories? Is integration similar to dreams, where the more you think about the contents of the experience, the more your brain will value remembering the experience? Or is it like studying, where repetition is required to embed information and patterns of learning that will be more accessible in the future?

You're probably right, but the answer is akin to responding to the question of "Why does this device tell me the time?" with "Because it's a clock!" Well sure, it's a clock, but I'm curious about the structure of the gears inside it. How do the cogs fit together - what's the mechanism behind the simple explanation?

I don't know, maybe I ask too many questions. Maybe DMT doesn't want me to ask these things because it doesn't have answers, because I'm asking the wrong things. Perhaps we're not supposed to know. After all, most revelations are forgotten once those fifteen minutes are up. Perhaps the cosmic joke is God swinging knowledge at us like a cat toy in the form of DMT, lowering it within our grasp for just a moment before yanking it back up, leaving us grasping at the dust left in its wake.

 

[Transform]

the question of "Why does this device tell me the time?" with "Because it's a clock!" Well sure, it's a clock, but I'm curious about the structure of the gears inside it. How do the cogs fit together - what's the mechanism behind the simple explanation?

What springs to mind here is the importance of the distinction between a 'why' question and a 'how' question - and the potential value of the answer in each respective case.

BTW, I find your hypothesis in the OP quite fascinating, and hope that I've enough norepinephrine in the ol' synapses to follow up with a deeper look into the state of knowledge in the biochemistry of memory formation - which for me is definitely a 'how' question!