DMT and the brain: what scientists say

[entheogenic-gnosis]

https://forteansquirrel.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/dmt-and-our-brain-what-scientists-say/

This article is an attempt to clear up some of the misinformation and myths surrounding DMT, I'll be honest I just skimmed through it as I'm in a hurry, but it seemed like there may have been some useful information contained in this article.

-EG

 

[GOD]

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS = MYTH BUSTED .

 

[hug46]

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS = MYTH BUSTED .

I wouldnt go as far as saying that the myth was busted. The writer just claims that there is no overwhelming evidence that Dmt is made in the brain.

 

[Orion]

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS = MYTH BUSTED .

I wouldnt go as far as saying that the myth was busted. The writer just claims that there is no overwhelming evidence that Dmt is made in the brain.

The myth that DMT is made inside the brain, spoken as a fact, is busted, since it's not a fact.

It's sad how defensive the comments on the article are. 'I have trippy dreams therefore proof it's all because of DMT' type stuff... what ?

The problem here isn't confusion over the evidence at all, it's just people desperately clinging to something they want so badly to be true. It's essentially a religion in a fetal stage.

 

[hug46]

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS = MYTH BUSTED .

I wouldnt go as far as saying that the myth was busted. The writer just claims that there is no overwhelming evidence that Dmt is made in the brain.

The myth that DMT is made inside the brain, spoken as a fact, is busted, since it's not a fact.

It's sad how defensive the comments on the article are. 'I have trippy dreams therefore proof it's all because of DMT' type stuff... what ?

I dont think that it is being defensive to say that it is just as possible that DMT is made in the brain as it not being made there.

 

[pitubo]

IMHO the title "What one self-professed skeptic says that some scientists say" would be equally or even more valid.

Anyway, let not his opinion nor that of a few nutty commentors on his blog get in the way of actual science. At least the author is straightforward about that: he is not a scientist. Too bad he dismisses the below study, quoted by one of the commenters.

LC/MS/MS analysis of the endogenous dimethyltryptamine hallucinogens, their precursors, and major metabolites in rat pineal gland microdialysate
Steven A. Barker1, Jimo Borjigin, Izabela Lomnicka and Rick Strassman
DOI: 10.1002/bmc.2981

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

We know that DMT is endogenously produced as it shows in blood and urine tests on subjects who have not ingested DMT. So DMT is a natural product of the human body, in fact it may be the endogenous ligand for the sigmar-1 receptor.

This paper just claims there is no evidence that DMT is produced by the brain, specifically by the pineal gland.

I still believe endogenous DMT experiences are possible, though they may only occur under rare circumstances, but that's a personnel feeling I believe may be true not a fact, and if evidence proves otherwise I'll change my views.

I make my decisions based on careful review of the evidence at hand and at this point there's no evidence one way or another on some of this stuff, the end of this paper does make a reasonable statement:
"the best thing you can do is avoid speculating or pretending to know what you don’t, and simply reserve judgment until you have more facts."

I love to speculate, and I think it's great to speculate on the issues until the facts are in, but the issue occurs when repeated speculations become accepted as fact and held onto like dogma. We need to remain objective and review the evidence as it comes in.

-EG

 

[Spiralout]

And you gotta remember in a sense all of our knowledge is dogmatic to our species. A lot of science nowadays is blatantly dogmatic the way they try to cancel out any "spiritual" or "unknown" elements. Yes this is what science, combing thru things looking for concrete patterns but nothing is ever certain in my point of view.

And all this debate on where exactly is produced is ridiculous, it's interesting but doesn't change anything. I haven't read the OPs article yet by the way as I am to tired but I will read.

And thanks alot for that pitubo; I will read it.


Love you all

 

[GOD]

" LC/MS/MS analysis of the endogenous dimethyltryptamine hallucinogens, their precursors, and major metabolites in rat pineal gland microdialysate
Steven A. Barker1, Jimo Borjigin, Izabela Lomnicka and Rick Strassman "

And that proves what ? That certain compounds that we already know have been found in mamals have been found in rats ? Did it prove that they were made or stored in the pineal gland ? Or that DMT has anything to do with consciousness or dreams ? Or that it is made in enough quantity for it to have a drug effect ? Or that the body makes it to use it and uses it and that its not just a byproduct of some process ?

Has that study been peer revued ? Has it been done and tested and confirmed by other labs / scientists ?

 

[pitubo]

" LC/MS/MS analysis of the endogenous dimethyltryptamine hallucinogens, their precursors, and major metabolites in rat pineal gland microdialysate
Steven A. Barker1, Jimo Borjigin, Izabela Lomnicka and Rick Strassman "

And that proves what ? That certain compounds that we already know have been found in mamals have been found in rats ? Did it prove that they were made or stored in the pineal gland ? Or that DMT has anything to do with consciousness or dreams ? Or that it is made in enough quantity for it to have a drug effect ?

I think that the article proves a lot more than some "skeptic" blogger's opinions.

That these substances were found in the pineal gland is stated in the article's title, that you even quoted yourself. Do you actually read what you quote?

Has that study been peer revued ? Has it been done and tested and confirmed by other labs / scientists ?

LOL "peer revue". What's that? Scientists singing and dancing on a stage?

BTW the article has been published in the journal "Biomedical Chromatography", but you could have easily checked this yourself.

 

[Orion]

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS = MYTH BUSTED .

I wouldnt go as far as saying that the myth was busted. The writer just claims that there is no overwhelming evidence that Dmt is made in the brain.

The myth that DMT is made inside the brain, spoken as a fact, is busted, since it's not a fact.

It's sad how defensive the comments on the article are. 'I have trippy dreams therefore proof it's all because of DMT' type stuff... what ?

I dont think that it is being defensive to say that it is just as possible that DMT is made in the brain as it not being made there.

I hope I wasn't misunderstood, I don't disagree that it is possible, there is work to be done, but the work that is being done is being done with bias and the results don't change the argument. Strassman spent time and resources to show it is present in a rat pineal. We already knew it was in their brain. So what ?

I'm trying to say why always talk about the pineal and the brain? You say it might be equal chances either way, so why is it always pineal talk? What about the fact that there is a notable amount in the kidneys and lungs? In humans there is up to 14ng/kg in lung tissue and 15ng/kg in the kidneys. Let's write a book about that ? In rats they found even more in the lungs (up to 22 ng/kg) than they did in the brain (up to 15ng/kg), but nobody ever mentions it ? The bias is very clear.

 

[hug46]

I hope I wasn't misunderstood,

Yes i probably did misunderstand. I got mixed up in the context of myths and facts and that it has also not been proven that DMT is not made in the brain and therefore the myth of the fact that it is has not been busted. A good skeptic is skeptical about everything, including their own views and the views of other other skeptics.

I will get off of my pedantic high horse and say that i agree with you that everyone is obsessed with the pineal. Theres a lot of stuff about the pineal being the third eye so it makes sense that some people will try and add 2 and 2 together in order to get a possible 5. I think that it would be cool if DMT was made in the pineal and all that spiritual nonsense turned out to be true.

Maybe the fact that DMT is made in the brain will be proven but that it is not supposed to be produced in a healthy brain and therefore causes mental illness due to the resultant invasive chemical. And that people who have deep endegenous dmt induced spiritual experiences or religious awakenings are clinically insane (on a sliding scale).

This theory is quite appealing to me as it can help remove some of the stigmas that are attached to mental illness in that these experiences can subjectively be quite beneficial. Vis a vis it"s ok to be a bit of a nutjob.

 

[universecannon]

What always puzzles me is how people who just perpetuate rumors and speculation as fact neglect the many MAOI known to be produced in the brain already, and the possibility of other tryptamines like 5-MeO-DMT and so on. If you've ever taken a big dose of harmalas in silent darkness you probably have some clue as to how psychedelic they can get on their own.

What's interesting to me is that things such as meditation, prolonged darkness, sleep, and flavonoid rich foods are now known to increase the pineal glands production of melatonin (I believe Banco wrote a nexian article mentioning this as well, with the focus being how we're deficient in melatonin due to artificial lighting. I think food is also a large factor). These are all ancient techniques that have been part of a package to access altered states.

Prolonged darkness and meditation are extremely ancient techniques for altering consciousness, and having a lot of experience with melatonin myself (and, I suspect, it's main metabolite pinoline: an MAOI among several produced in the brain), I think some of my "endogenous" experiences are very along the lines of what harmalas are capable of. My float tank experiences have a big similarity to, and when I take melatonin and a bit of harmalas beforehand it just amps up that process. Same with meditation although there are differences. Dreams can be extremely mundane at times but the more these kinds of techniques are engaged, the more psychedelic they tend to become for me. (I've tripped far harder in dream than I honestly ever hope to in waking life. Doesn't mean it's due to endogenous psychedelics, but it is interesting). Same with the other techniques, IME; they tend to transition from just harmala-esque, to having an increasing tryptamine quality or tryptamine visions. For me it's not usually a replica of harmalas + DMT, but then again it wouldn't be if it's an orchestra of biochemical activity going on. And there is obviously many other things/processes going on with the brain during these activities and experiences.

This all doesn't necessarily prove anything, despite the interesting rat pineal-DMT study, but I think these things viewed within the larger context are often neglected when talking about the pineal gland and the possibility of endogenous psychedelic experiences. The possible link between the DMT produced in the lungs and the effect of specific breathing techniques used to enter altered states might have on this might be worth looking at to.

 

[jamie]

That article said essentially nothing but speculation from two other random scientists...who don't know and just speculate like everyone else...hardly a reason to claim it's fact that it's not produced by the brain, any more than some the rat studies which do find it is factual evidence for it's production in human brains.

There is also information left out in that article, like the presence of DMT in the heart, lungs and adrenals.

My guess? DMT and 5-MeO-DMT might both be verified to be pineal metabolites at some point.

 

[livinglife]

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS = MYTH BUSTED .

I wouldnt go as far as saying that the myth was busted. The writer just claims that there is no overwhelming evidence that Dmt is made in the brain.

The myth that DMT is made inside the brain, spoken as a fact, is busted, since it's not a fact.

It's sad how defensive the comments on the article are. 'I have trippy dreams therefore proof it's all because of DMT' type stuff... what ?

The problem here isn't confusion over the evidence at all, it's just people desperately clinging to something they want so badly to be true. It's essentially a religion in a fetal stage.

What makes you bealive that it's not a fact?

 

[voyaj]

The article isn't that controversial on the subject in my opinion.

We all know by now that endogenous DMT is not specifically verified by Science.
And until someone other than Rick Strassman is able to verify that the [human] brain produces DMT I will not believe so.
And I say that, and I have absolutely no qualms about Mr. Dr. Strassman... but the idea of DMT is a money maker for the guy.

But, so what? DMT taught me that I know nothing in the most beyond magical way that I could have never thought of.
Good luck Science!

 

[starway6]

I know DMT naturaly shows up in blood sampels..

I think it very posible that DMT is made in some other part of the body ..other than the brain...

 

[benzyme]

" LC/MS/MS analysis of the endogenous dimethyltryptamine hallucinogens, their precursors, and major metabolites in rat pineal gland microdialysate
Steven A. Barker1, Jimo Borjigin, Izabela Lomnicka and Rick Strassman "

And that proves what ? That certain compounds that we already know have been found in mamals have been found in rats ? Did it prove that they were made or stored in the pineal gland ? Or that DMT has anything to do with consciousness or dreams ? Or that it is made in enough quantity for it to have a drug effect ?

I think that the article proves a lot more than some "skeptic" blogger's opinions.

That these substances were found in the pineal gland is stated in the article's title, that you even quoted yourself. Do you actually read what you quote?

Has that study been peer revued ? Has it been done and tested and confirmed by other labs / scientists ?

LOL "peer revue". What's that? Scientists singing and dancing on a stage?

BTW the article has been published in the journal "Biomedical Chromatography", but you could have easily checked this yourself.

rat pineal gland? woop dee doo. what kind of "proof" is that? are you trying to correlate rat brain physiology to the human brain? they don't even have a prefrontal cortex. :thumb_dow

Thompson et al. showed strong northern blot bands for INMT in peripheral tissue isolates in humans, and the absence of bands from the human brain isolates (see Fig. 2)

aww rats.

ehum.....DMT and the Pineal pt#2 - DMT Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[1ce]

" LC/MS/MS analysis of the endogenous dimethyltryptamine hallucinogens, their precursors, and major metabolites in rat pineal gland microdialysate
Steven A. Barker1, Jimo Borjigin, Izabela Lomnicka and Rick Strassman "

And that proves what ? That certain compounds that we already know have been found in mamals have been found in rats ? Did it prove that they were made or stored in the pineal gland ? Or that DMT has anything to do with consciousness or dreams ? Or that it is made in enough quantity for it to have a drug effect ?

I think that the article proves a lot more than some "skeptic" blogger's opinions.

That these substances were found in the pineal gland is stated in the article's title, that you even quoted yourself. Do you actually read what you quote?

Has that study been peer revued ? Has it been done and tested and confirmed by other labs / scientists ?

LOL "peer revue". What's that? Scientists singing and dancing on a stage?

BTW the article has been published in the journal "Biomedical Chromatography", but you could have easily checked this yourself.

rat pineal gland? woop dee doo. what kind of "proof" is that? are you trying to correlate rat brain physiology to the human brain? they don't even have a prefrontal cortex. :thumb_dow

Thompson et al. showed strong northern blot bands for INMT in peripheral tissue isolates in humans, and the absence of bands from the human brain isolates (see Fig. 2)

aww rats.

ehum.....DMT and the Pineal pt#2 - DMT Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

In that link you posted, the thing I find most interesting is the presence of THBC.

 

[dreamer042]

Ma, Xiaochao, et al. "Metabolism of melatonin by human cytochromes p450." Drug metabolism and disposition 33.4 (2005): 489-494.
^ attached

Guchhait, R. B. "Biogenesis of 5‐methoxy‐N, N‐dimethyltryptamine in human pineal gland." Journal of neurochemistry 26.1 (1976): 187-190.
^ attached

van der Horst, C. J., and I. Ebels. "Extraction of pineal and uterine tissue at different pH values: a preliminary report on the occurrence of a few groups of compounds in both tissues." Cytobios 29.115-116 (1979): 191-203.
^unable to find an electronic copy of this one, here is the abstract:

Extraction of pineal and uterine tissue at different pH values: a preliminary report on the occurrence of a few groups of compounds in both tissues - PubMed

Extraction of pineal glands has been performed at different pH values. After extraction at pH +/- 4.9, 'porphyrin'-containing protein did not occur in the extracts, while at pH +/- 6.3 these proteins had passed over partly into the extract; at pH +/- 6.8 the proteins could no longer be detected...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It's late I'll add more information later.