DMT cures heroin addiction, I'm a 20 year addict and for the first time have no cravings.

[ShamanisticVibes]

I agree, Bill. I think blanket statements, in practice are irresponsible by nature. There is so much nuance in this world that labeling anything as (you so eloquently put it) a "magic bullet". I think the statement "My journey in using psychedelics to perpetuate the proper positive thinking and habits needed to quell my heroin addiction" would be a more responsible, as well as a more tailor-made statement describing my particular experiences; and that may be different for anyone else in similar situations. That being said, I think the potential for psychedelics to aid in creating these positive habits and states of mind is something that does deserve to be discussed.

I was aware of Bill Wilson's use of LSD and his stepping down from his role in the leadership of AA, although I do not know the ins and outs of his experiences in such matters.

 

[null24]

]
I'm also a recovering heroin addict and it's no joke coming off it and staying off. I wish you all the best dude and hope you get it right.

It might be better to start a new thread on this topic I want to bring up in regard to null24's post. I just want to ask you a question null. Do you still consider yourself as in recovery and clean even though you use psychedelics. In all the rehabs I have been they drilled it pretty hard that you need to stay of all mind altering substances and even the talk of psychedelics as part of the healing is seen as you are not ready for the "real" world out there and they keep you longer for your mindset to come right. What made you decide to do psychedelics, did you see it as a relapse? Do you feel you can fully help addicts if you use psychedelics. I think psychedelics have helped me more than I thought they would in a few different aspects of my life.

I'm not trying to put you down or anything, I hope I worded it nicely as english is my second language and I don't want this to come off as me saying you are doing anything wrong. I just find it very interesting that entheogens can really help addicts yet the medical community would rather put you on psych meds which is just as hard to kick the day you want to. I don't think any of the psych meds I have been on have really helped me. They just kind of masked emotions and feelings. Felt like a zombie on them really and had no joy in life while on them.

Sweet, I welcome these questions. No I do not think of my psych use as relapse because I do not equate that use with a numbing or escape strategy but rather as a therapeutic modality with very clear personal intentions and outcomes for the better.

I do feel that I can help addicts as an indirect result of my psychedelic use. It was not until I had the encounter with 5meo that I spoke of that I was able to even begin to recover, it gave me the foundation.

However, that said, I do not proselytize them in any professional setting, simply because I cannot do so, but I will engage a client if and when they ask me about it. If it comes up in conversation as an genuine interest of a client who is searching for a modality they think may work, I will indeed talk to them about it. My language is never in a context of recreational use but rather couched in as close to clinical terms as I am able. I often point out that I don't even really like the way they make me feel. As a person with very severe trauma symptoms, the way psychs force me to sit with myself can be hard to endure, but leaves me a lasting benefit from doing so.

Who is gonna start the new thread??? I think this is a great topic and I would love to get into it to both challenge my own views and to express them.

EDIT: in response to Bill and his statement about them possibly not serving him well in first early attempts at recovering: I agree. I came back to psychs after many years of not engaging with them, I think mostly because I was more invested in avoidance than confrontation of my own BS, and that if I had early on, they too could have been manipulated by me to serve that impulse. In other words, pretty colors and internal vistas as opposed to uncomfortable feelings and learning to sit with and move through them.

My addiction history is/was a very clear response to violence, my freeze process (rather than fight or flight) and the cultural inability I had to process it. It was a way for me to unexperience life without suiciding, and is very hard to unravel and dismantle, taking many modalities and lots of experimentation around healing processes. I am kind of a tough case, which also I think qualifies me for being able to work with others who struggle, because if I can... anyone can.

 

[Dirty T]

I just want to ask you a question null. Do you still consider yourself as in recovery and clean even though you use psychedelics. In all the rehabs I have been they drilled it pretty hard that you need to stay of all mind altering substances and even the talk of psychedelics as part of the healing is seen as you are not ready for the "real" world out there and they keep you longer for your mindset to come right.

Not for nothing, but Bill Wilson used LSD repeatedly throughout the late 1950's (20 years after creating Alcoholics Anonymous). Didn't go over well with the rest of the AA governing body, so he stepped down from his position on it rather than abandon his psychedelic practice.

That's not to say that one way is right and the other one is wrong, but AA is steeped in a hot mug of dogma, and the Recovery Industrial Complex at its core is committed to a revolving door profit model that keeps beds full and delegitimizes all competing approaches.

As one who has traveled this road myself, I don't think a self-prescribed treatment plan involving psychedelics would have served me well early on. They did however help me tremendously when I circled back to them later, but without a significant period of total abstinence (and a number of years of therapy) I don't know that I would have made it. But that's just me and my experience. Mileage and results may vary.

But yeah, no one should ever make blanket statements like "DMT cures heroin addiction". That is just blatently false information that encourages a magic bullet approach to a very complex situation.

Bill Wilson also used Cannabis and Psilocybin. He was also a douche that didn't real practice what he preached but Bob Smith did and I am a perfect example that they were both right. As Tegridy was speaking about the recovery community has a general hard line drawn in the sand approach to sobriety and the numbers speak for themselves, it doesn't work. I agree some individuals will use psychedelics and go right back to other harder and more addictive substances but that's because of a lack of work. I use Cannabis and other psychedelics and have been sober 2 years and am doing just great. My life is in an awesome position. I graduated drug court in May and I have 0 desire to do Oppiates or smoke PCP. I chair meetings, hold several service positions and sponsor other people. Most people would disagree with my "drug use" but the people that REALLY KNOW ME know what I am doing and that it has worked great.

Sobriety is characterized by freedom and happiness. Sometimes we require medicine to repair the damage we have done to our minds over the years and decades. Some people do not respond well to psychotropic drugs but do respond well to psychedelics. It's not fair for those of us to suffer because of legal status and backward archaic laws. I don't need a governing body to direct my moral compass.

The main thing that comes to mind is "To thine own self be true". Only you know the true intentions behind whatever medicine you are using. Using for medical purposes is 100% ok but using to escape your feelings is 100% relapse. The thing about psychedelics is they usually intensify feelings not numb them. I also 100% disagree with the idea that if you take any substance whatsoever into your body it sets off an allergic reaction rendering us incapable of refusing our "drug of choice". While this may hold true with alcoholics, that's a different disease medically. Drug addiction is similar yet different and the doctors understand very little about the how, why and the way it works. In my experience 12 step programs work for people who want to find a spiritual way of life.

 

[null24]

I just want to ask you a question null. Do you still consider yourself as in recovery and clean even though you use psychedelics. In all the rehabs I have been they drilled it pretty hard that you need to stay of all mind altering substances and even the talk of psychedelics as part of the healing is seen as you are not ready for the "real" world out there and they keep you longer for your mindset to come right.

Not for nothing, but Bill Wilson used LSD repeatedly throughout the late 1950's (20 years after creating Alcoholics Anonymous). Didn't go over well with the rest of the AA governing body, so he stepped down from his position on it rather than abandon his psychedelic practice.

That's not to say that one way is right and the other one is wrong, but AA is steeped in a hot mug of dogma, and the Recovery Industrial Complex at its core is committed to a revolving door profit model that keeps beds full and delegitimizes all competing approaches.

As one who has traveled this road myself, I don't think a self-prescribed treatment plan involving psychedelics would have served me well early on. They did however help me tremendously when I circled back to them later, but without a significant period of total abstinence (and a number of years of therapy) I don't know that I would have made it. But that's just me and my experience. Mileage and results may vary.

But yeah, no one should ever make blanket statements like "DMT cures heroin addiction". That is just blatently false information that encourages a magic bullet approach to a very complex situation.

Bill Wilson also used Cannabis and Psilocybin. He was also a douche that didn't real practice what he preached but Bob Smith did and I am a perfect example that they were both right. As Tegridy was speaking about the recovery community has a general hard line drawn in the sand approach to sobriety and the numbers speak for themselves, it doesn't work. I agree some individuals will use psychedelics and go right back to other harder and more addictive substances but that's because of a lack of work. I use Cannabis and other psychedelics and have been sober 2 years and am doing just great. My life is in an awesome position. I graduated drug court in May and I have 0 desire to do Oppiates or smoke PCP. I chair meetings, hold several service positions and sponsor other people. Most people would disagree with my "drug use" but the people that REALLY KNOW ME know what I am doing and that it has worked great.

Sobriety is characterized by freedom and happiness. Sometimes we require medicine to repair the damage we have done to our minds over the years and decades. Some people do not respond well to psychotropic drugs but do respond well to psychedelics. It's not fair for those of us to suffer because of legal status and backward archaic laws. I don't need a governing body to direct my moral compass.

The main thing that comes to mind is "To thine own self be true". Only you know the true intentions behind whatever medicine you are using. Using for medical purposes is 100% ok but using to escape your feelings is 100% relapse. The thing about psychedelics is they usually intensify feelings not numb them. I also 100% disagree with the idea that if you take any substance whatsoever into your body it sets off an allergic reaction rendering us incapable of refusing our "drug of choice". While this may hold true with alcoholics, that's a different disease medically. Drug addiction is similar yet different and the doctors understand very little about the how, why and the way it works. In my experience 12 step programs work for people who want to find a spiritual way of life.

You are right, the numbers don't play out with 12 steps. Thankfully the zeitgeist is slowly turning around. I don't mean that in relation to things like refuge or dharma recovery, which are even more dogmatic and religous than AA or NA, try to go to one of those and admit not practicing Bhuddism, it's all a game... But there are things that do work, and I do believe in having some kind of group or community connection as a good thing to have in place as part of one's support network. I am fortunate to have access through the poutpatient MAT clinc I attend to wonderful, non-dogmatic groups in which we address trauma in a group setting through the Seeking Safety curriculum and other things.

There are so many things with 12 steps that disgust me- I am NOT powerless, I do not have a character defect, there is no anthropomorphic "God" (last time they had me read the 12 traditions, I almost got kicked out for calling it It. Then throw personalities and judgemental people in the mix and I am looking at building some resentments to relapse over.

It is indeed a personal quest. I prefer the term recovery to sobriety and try my best not to say"clean" because I may not be sober all of the time because cannabis is an ally, and my drug use never made me "dirty".

There is a lot to be desired from the recovery industry, as Bill C (not W) called it for good reason, and that is one reason I want to work within it. To help turn this paradigm around.

Huh. So I guess it's just us and the person who dug this mouldy thing from the grave isn't going to return? And no, nothing cures addiction except time, love, kindness, support, knowledge, self-awareness, community engagement, new life experience, failure, success and really really hard work and a bunch of other stuff I am not thinking about right now. My cancer diagnosis last year took me out for a minute- there is always something around the corner waiting to mess you up. Smoking DMT ain't gonna do it and I feel very sorry for anyone who thinks they can get fixed as easily as they got strung out. 10 miles out, 20 miles back.

 

[hug46]

Do you still consider yourself as in recovery and clean even though you use psychedelics. In all the rehabs I have been they drilled it pretty hard that you need to stay of all mind altering substances and even the talk of psychedelics as part of the healing is seen as you are not ready for the "real" world out there and they keep you longer for your mindset to come right.

I will piggyback on this.After nearly 20 years an opiate addict and now nearly 10 years "clean". In my case complete abstinence from mind altering substances is unrealistic. As has been stated before it depends on the relationship you have with said substances. And some drugs are more healthy to get involved with than others

DMT played a part in me getting clean but at the time i wasn't doing it to heal. I was doing it primarily for recreation and the contemplative afterglows from my sessions were very beneficial. They kinda taught me to like myself and lose my anxiety. Also it provided a new drug for me to get obsessed with. With heroin my obsession was finding the money, finding the drugs the prepping of the works before a fix whearas with DMT the obsession was based on curiosity. It could also be that i was in my mid forties when i returned to experimenting and therefore had a different perspective based on my age.And yeah, it's no magic bullet. A lot of other things in my life aligned for me to give me the opportunity to sort myself out.


I don't know really, all i know is that i am so lucky to have another chance in life. I drink, i smoke and once in a blue moon i will do other drugs but there would need to be a seismic event in my life to make me go back to that other life.

In respect to re-hab places saying that you have to stay off of mind altering substances. This is understandable. They have to deal with vulnerable people and encouraging them to self medicate opens up all sorts of possible moral aand legal pitfalls.

 

[Bill Cipher]

I don't know really, all i know is that i am so lucky to have another chance in life. I drink, i smoke and once in a blue moon i will do other drugs but there would need to be a seismic event in my life to make me go back to that other life.

Mad respex to you, hug. I feel exactly the same, though I no longer drink or take anything other than weed (on the reg) and psychedelics (very sparingly). My life today is just so much better in every way than it was in the grips of addiction.

And mad respex to you as well, null. I could see you helping a lot of people. Maybe that's to be your legacy.

 

[null24]

People have different relationships with drugs. People have to make thier own decisions as to what works for them. I don't believe abstinence-based treatment is the only route to changing one's life for the better. Drug use needs to be normalized and most treatment centers operate on a principle that substance use is a disorder. Cessation of use doesn't prevent a person from achieving their goals in life, issues like an inability to meet basic needs, housing instability and financial insecurity along with a host of cultural/social/emotional factors create many negative symptoms and drug addiction is one. At the same time the vast majority of drug users never become dependant, with more or less healthy, or normal, relationships with the substances they use to change their consciousness.

I wouldn't work for a abstinence based center with any clear conscience or expectation of longevity. Meeting people where they are at means just that, not judging them for the consequences of the symptoms of untreated conditions they present. I don't mean addiction is a disease either. It is dis-ease, most definitely but I believe it can be completely resolved in even truly hardcore addicts if they can commit to doing the really hard work of confronting their own conscious and unconscious reasons that they might put aside loving relationships and other important rewards of life for a numbing strategy.

Some addicts may chose for whatever reason to not quit using whatever their drug of choice is, but that should not be a reason to deny them housing or other subsidy driven programs. People should be allowed to access their DOC in a safe environment and manner with unadulterated substances provided inexpensively because they are cheap to legally manufacture. Harm reduction economics are simple. The coinciding drop in property and other crime and costs related to unattended medical conditions from street drugs like abscesses and other infections would pay for these programs.

I wasn't a fan of the legislation that legalized psilocybin therapy here, because I didn't think it h ad time to iron out some serious concerns in the community about equal access and profiteering. But it is here and we have to deal with it. A lot of people that seemed wary to speak about it before became inflamed with those concerns during and after the protests that began with George Floyd's police murder last summer and local internet chatter reflected that. Hopefully the sentiment will last. I prefer outright legalization so I can pick and eat and chill peacefully, not have to sit in someone's office with a blindfold and a playlist, but nonethelessfor some who want to do that have that right. Its a step in the right direction. Many US localities have legalized plant based psychedelics, so it is happening. :thumb_up:

I'm rambling and obviously stoned:roll: Weed does help me immensley and it is incredibly forgiving and versatile but h I am ending my habitual relationship with it and treating it more as a psychedelic plant medicine, which it is. Be good to y'allselves. And thanks Bill, you have my deep respect too, brother.

 

[hug46]

Mad respex to you, hug. I feel exactly the same, though I no longer drink or take anything other than weed (on the reg) and psychedelics (very sparingly). My life today is just so much better in every way than it was in the grips of addiction.

Right back at ya. I'd say that there were a lot of differences between us and we live on the other side of the planet to each other but we are of a similar age and have a similar moral outlook, and Van D'lay industries is well on the way to world domination. I always knew you'd do well for yourself in your chosen creative pursuit. So yes respect where it is due.

And to all who are trying to find your chosen path in dealing with addiction... respect. I have sometimes thought that i would like to help people that have had similar problems to myself but i really wouldn't know where to start. I have kind of bumbled through life making dumb decisions and, most of the time, ended up landing on my feet. So i have no real idea on how to advise someone on getting over an addiction...