DMT is culturally insignificant

[ca1e]

This experience only serves to pull into sharp focus, the subjective frame.

If any reports of DMT suggest otherwise, I'd like to hear about them.

 

[anrchy]

What exactly do you mean?

 

[SKA]

I beg to differ. I think DMT is immensely culturally significant.

It was undoubtedly DMT that inspired this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

Even, as smale scaled as it may seem, this:

Let's depict Entities, Enviroments and Objects from DMT-space! - Hyperspace Lexicon - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

I could go on for quite a while, but my point is:
Is this not Culture massively inspired and influenced by DMT?

 

[anrchy]

Wouldn't the tribes that use ayahuasca be considered a culture that was shaped from its use?

 

[DreaMTripper]

The dmt-nexus is a culture itself not to mention the wider dmt exploratory and research community.
It wil get even more significant as more people start to question the nature of reality and humanities place in the multiverse.

 

[CatchThirtyThr33]

This experience only serves to pull into sharp focus, the subjective frame.

If any reports of DMT suggest otherwise, I'd like to hear about them.

This is true on an individual level, but when it affects a larger group of people in a similar way to has a cultural impact.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

This reads like a troll post.

Sorry. It just does.

By stating "DMT is culturally insignificant" and then stating "This experience only serves to pull into sharp focus, the subjective frame," you are making the implicit assertion that culture is not subjective...that culture is not, by definition, comprised of the amalgamation of the subjective experiences of people within a delimited group. This claim does not hold water, imo.

Anthropologically speaking, DMT (and entheogens in general) are the epitome of culturally significant experiences/expressions. Without taking the time to go into the myriads of historical anthropological discussion as to what defines culture, let's just use the wikipedia definitions for simplicity sake:

1) the evolved human capacity to classify and represent experiences with symbols, and to act imaginatively and creatively; and
2) the distinct ways that people living differently classified and represented their experiences, and acted creatively.

So how could DMT/entheogens be anything other than culturally significant?

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Culture is not your friend, it's an impediment to understanding what's going on. That's why to my mind the word cult and the word culture have a direct relationship to each other. Culture is a cult and if you feel revulsion at the thought of somebody offering to the great carrot, just notice that your own culture is an extremely repressive cult that leads to all kinds of humiliation and degradation, and automatic and unquestioned and unthinking behaviour.

 

[ca1e]

The point I was making is that, unlike many transcendent experiences one can achieve, the lessons of DMT cannot be shared with anyone else.

It's effects on the psyche seem to me, to point solely towards the subject's meaning; but never the meaning of the subject's environment. Which is where we reside in this mortal plane.

 

[alank950]

I think DMT is collectively subjective as all experiences are similar by definition .Yes each trip is personal although the basic principles and experience are the same for the majority of people regardless of culture.Subjective depending on the culture and how a particular culture expresses it uniqueness as a whole ,possibly .

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Culture is not your friend, it's an impediment to understanding what's going on. That's why to my mind the word cult and the word culture have a direct relationship to each other. Culture is a cult and if you feel revulsion at the thought of somebody offering to the great carrot, just notice that your own culture is an extremely repressive cult that leads to all kinds of humiliation and degradation, and automatic and unquestioned and unthinking behaviour.

This quote gets thrown around a lot...seemingly without much thought. Culture exists wherever human beings congregate, by definition. McKenna seemed fixated on the ills of dominant culture in this talk, iirc, yet he made no distinction. As someone pointed out, the Nexus has a culture. Culture can serve very positive purposes...but the dominant culture and its components, which is what I believe McKenna was referencing here (colonialism, empire, capitalism, industrialism, patriarchy, white supremacy, etc.) are incredibly destructive.

The point I was making is that, unlike many transcendent experiences one can achieve, the lessons of DMT cannot be shared with anyone else.

I would challenge this assertion. The experience may be ineffable and unsharable (not counting those telepathic/shared consciousness experiences), but the lessons can be (and have been) disseminated. The immediate experience certainly makes those lessons more profound, but transcendental states, by their very nature all share this quality. Singling DMT out as different makes no sense, imo.

It's effects on the psyche seem to me, to point solely towards the subject's meaning; but never the meaning of the subject's environment. Which is where we reside in this mortal plane.

Again, this assertion holds no validity for me, especially when examining DMT's historical context. When indigenous cultures assert that their knowledge of their ecosystem comes directly from the plants...that they imbibe the plants and share the plant consciousness in order to learn about the landbase and ecosystems that surround them, it seems to me to be precisely the opposite of your assertion. Additionally, the lessons, teachings, etc. of these experiences can have significant validity in our day-to-day environment. I know I've had experiences for which this holds true.

Finally, as humans are meaning making machines, the notion that any experience (psychedelic or otherwise) could do anything more than "point...towards the subject's meaning" seems off to me. Every meaning is subjectively created meaning. Sure some of it is agreed upon by enough people that it comes to have a generally accepted consensus meaning...but don't fool yourself into believing that this is anything other than subjectivity applied wholesale. That's not to negate the validity of these experiences, just to remind/reassert their subjectivity.

 

[Bancopuma]

^^ Great post, I'm with Mr SnozzleBerry here.

"It's effects on the psyche seem to me, to point solely towards the subject's meaning; but never the meaning of the subject's environment. Which is where we reside in this mortal plane."

If when discussing DMT, you are including ayahuasca (which would only be logical), then to make such a statement is maybe suggestive that you need to learn more about shamanic and indigenous use of ayahuasca.

Ayahuasca and DMT have the capacity to increase ecological awareness and concern, and awe and appreciation for nature, and I would make a counter argument and state that DMT use, particularly in the form of ayahuasca, is intimately tied to the environment, which we both share. Shared visionary experiences are also reported among groups who use ayahuasca adding a whole other layer of mystery to the experience that further erodes the purely subjective stance.

 

[All Hail HypnoToad]

It's effects on the psyche seem to me, to point solely towards the subject's meaning; but never the meaning of the subject's environment. Which is where we reside in this mortal plane.

I don't think this is entirely true. While some experiences don't involve the environment some do in an extreme way...take this thread I started for example:

Spice and prescient visions... - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

This experience was centered in my environment in probably the most relevant way possible.

You have to realize that with DMT anything is possible!!! The rabbit hole is deep my friend!!:thumb_up:

 

[Elpo]

It's effects on the psyche seem to me, to point solely towards the subject's meaning; but never the meaning of the subject's environment. Which is where we reside in this mortal plane.

The subject is always a part of the environment so any change that occurs in the subject will also affect it's environment and vice versa.

 

[SKA]

Culture is not your friend, it's an impediment to understanding what's going on. That's why to my mind the word cult and the word culture have a direct relationship to each other. Culture is a cult and if you feel revulsion at the thought of somebody offering to the great carrot, just notice that your own culture is an extremely repressive cult that leads to all kinds of humiliation and degradation, and automatic and unquestioned and unthinking behaviour.

This quote gets thrown around a lot...seemingly without much thought. Culture exists wherever human beings congregate, by definition. McKenna seemed fixated on the ills of dominant culture in this talk, iirc, yet he made no distinction. As someone pointed out, the Nexus has a culture. Culture can serve very positive purposes...but the dominant culture and its components, which is what I believe McKenna was referencing here (colonialism, empire, capitalism, industrialism, patriarchy, white supremacy, etc.) are incredibly destructive.

I agree very much with you on this Snozzleberry. McKenna's arguments against culture made me lose quite a bit of respect for him(though there's still plenty left). I see his point, but it is an extremist view that just doesn't stand up t o scruiteny. I'll give a perfect example.

Buddhism (A Cultural ideology/lifeview) has taught me about Ego, of it's self-imposed blindess and it's self-imposed suffering. How it has a neurotic addiction to power & control and how it is a master of deceit. Both in Visionairy experiences & everyday experiences.

Being seduces by hyperspace elves, then being scared and disgusted by hyperspace monsters...
For me that was VERY reminiscent of Buddha under the Bodhi tree resisting his demon's seduction and their subsequent attempts to terrorise him away. Without this knowledge I may not have withstood my darker, more intense DMT experiences so well.

This knowlede has helped me IMMENSELY in figuring out what's going on, in both the world around me AND the world inside of me. So that is a clear example of Culture DEFENITELY being my friend.






Furthermore, there are ALOT of seemingly objective aspects to the DMT experience:
-MANY many people, most actually, see humanoids & animals (Often Lizzards, Insects,
Hybrids: Cat-man, Fauns...etc). This is not subjective.

-Many people see Halls, domes, temple like interriors.

-Many people receive spiritual knowledge; Insight into their own Psyche or
into the general human psyche.




These are all strange hallmarks of the DMT experience that many 1000nds of DMT smoalkers around the globe(with various differing cultural backgrounds) have been witnessing, myself included. Did you not see these things after breaking through on DMT too, ca1e?

 

[Doodazzle]

And this:

Who's the artist?

 

[SKA]

Pablo Amaringo. He's a retired Ayahuasquero who started painting his visions. Check him out, he has a heap of wonderfull work.

 

[Doodazzle]

Okay....didn't recognize his style at first. I'll probably have to buy his book now.

 

[Michal_R]

...the lessons of DMT cannot be shared with anyone else...

But isn´t ayahuasca ingested in circles and, therefore, shared to some degree? It is not that uncommon to have collective/shared "hallucinations" on ayahuasca.

If you smoke DMT at home alone, then it makes sense that you don´t share the experience with anyone directly.

 

[Bancopuma]

Shipibo art is also derived from ayahuasca visions. While the patterns seen may be subjectively experienced, that may be a lot more objective than they first appear, as these patterns likely depict the visual projections of the inner structure of the brain and eye, experienced via ayahuasca, and so could be considered internal patterns universal to all humans.