DMT is not a spirit molecule

[clouds]

No offence, but i think the thread title and conclusions your coming to in general about dmt are odd considering you havn't experienced it yet.

I'm just preparing myself.
When I came here I said that I wanted to read, learn and analyze before jumping into this DMT hyperspace.
And I want to get my stuff together before I start believing that drugs are sacred.

I mean, when I was on acid I believed it was the God of The Future. Now I don´t think LSD is the god of the future.

 

[clouds]

Well dmt is in the brain soooooo
it must be sacred then according to your definition atleast :lol:

Yeah, a lot of tryptamines, opioids and phens are in the brain...

 

[benzyme]

Then I started (it was inevitable) to read about psychedelic chemistry and not only psychedelic philosophy. My mind was blown by the amazing number of FACTS in chemistry against the philosophy. You see, in chemistry BS doesn't work, and in philosophy everything in permitted. You don't have to be smart to be a philosopher, you don't even have to study... you can say anything and some people will believe it. On the other hand, in chemistry you better be bright and clear (intelligent) to get your "truths" working, and people don't even have to believe it if they don't want to, it'a a fact anyway... if DMT can be synthesized a certain way then that is a FACT... or if MDMA activates certain areas in in the brain, then that is a FACT. And thanks to facts, humanity progress in the scientific endeavor.

yeah?

what do you know about chemistry?

chem doesn't have the answers for everything, spirituality being one of them. MDMA doesn't work for everyone. you think brain chemistry is as rigid as your view of science? it isn't. scientists are barely learning just how elastic the human brain really is. we know more about the universe than inner space... and the definition of spirit may not ever be anything tangible that can be tested by the scientific method.

 

[DMTripper]

My main point is that I don't think drugs or chemical compounds are sacred.
I think that if something is sacred at all... it's the human brain. Not an unconscious pile of DMT or MDMA or Psilocyibin.

The brain it self is not more conscious than just a pile of DMT. A brain is just made up of proteins and other chemicals but what could be considered sacred is the force that drives it.
Life. A dead brain lacks that magic. A brain by it self is dead and just a pile of gray matter.

 

[soulfood]

The brain it self is not more conscious than just a pile of DMT. A brain is just made up of proteins and other chemicals but what could be considered sacred is the force that drives it.
Life. A dead brain lacks that magic. A brain by it self is dead and just a pile of gray matter.

The bulk of all of which is H2O

The true spirit molecule of planet earth 8)

 

[pau]

Clouds, you remind us of a very important point.

40 years ago I was interested in tryptamines almost entirely for their "fun" value. Now, even tho I'm the newbiest of the newbies here, it seems that most of us Nexusites see spice, cactus, etc as remarkable aids to discover things about spirit and consciousness ... it's logical that when we've discovered these things, that our interest in these substances might well drop away, and that continued interest in these substances could even be a hindrance. In my experience, some people are very capable of learning these things about human consciousness without these aids.

With or without their plants and herbs, aren't shamans a bridge between the unconscious and more conscious states for healing and growth? Good luck to you!

 

[freethinker]

Well, I got the general gist what clouds was getting at. If you guys feel the need to argue semantics about it, then that's your prerogative, but I don't think his sentiments are actually out of place with the general vibe around here at all.

I've generally always felt the same way about psychedelics. I've spent a lifetime with hippies, ravers, new agers, trancers, freaks, etc. I speak all forms of gobbledygook but don't particularly believe a word of it. The trip is in us, not the substance. The magic is in us, not the substance. We awaken, not the world around us. Many people put far too much reverence in the substance and the imagined perceptions of the world around us, instead of in ourselves.

It used to bother me but it honestly doesn't affect me anymore. As an example, I was at a psytrance festival over the weekend and some guy was passing through our camp chatting. He dominated the conversation with the all too familiar pseudo-intellectual belligerence of a 30's something American slacker pothead turned entheogen fan. Not a single thing came out of his mouth that wasn't solely for the purpose of making sure everyone knew he was going back to South America to "work" with "medicine" etc, etc. All the appropriate buzzwords had sufficient distribution in every sentence: "healing", "gaia", etc, etc, ad infinitum. In the past I would excitedly jump on this fool to argue that what he calls medicine, I call mescaline and that it has no more significance than capsaicin in peppers, and there's no less reason to do it at a party than with a shaman, and that he's simply bandaging his ego by appropriating native traditions and religions and assuming he's incomplete and needs to be healed because he's overcompensating for some typical-white-middle-class-guilt-complex(tm).

BUT, I just let him go on talking and thinking he was actually impressing anyone and went for a walk instead. My trip is infinitely improved with my learned ability to filter these people out. They have their beliefs and ways and that's fine. I honestly no longer feel any need to change their mind, and I honestly no longer feel I need to tolerate them trying to change mine.

 

[Bill Cipher]

Clouds,

I can respect your bent towards critical thinking. I can also respect the amount of time you've spent hanging out in the forum - reading, writing and preparing (to the extent that's even possible) before just jumping in. This, to me, shows respect for the molecule and respect for yourself as well. I don't think any of what you've written reads like a rant at all - but I do have to say with all due respect...

You don't know what you don't know, and until you go, you won't ever know. Go and you'll know. But know that even once you go, you still won't know. You'll never know. You'll never, ever know. I know that looks like gibberish, but believe me when I tell you without the slightest hint of irony, bravado or spiritual superiority... you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know...

When you do finally take the plunge and find yourself within the eye of The Experience, you'll be met with a space and mode of being in which science, philosophy, linguistics and logic are equally and utterly lacking.

 

[Felnik]

I think the first thing you need to do is try it. Then see how you feel about it. You may feel the same, you may feel different. I believe that science and shamanic states are not necessarily exclusive of one another.

I think a combination of the two disiplines will ultimately provide the answers we all seek as humans.

I believe the substance itself is not the point even though what it is capable of is truly amazing.

I believe its the places this substance takes us to that is sacred.

It is nature that is sacred . It is the balance of all things in the universe that is sacred. It is the planet earth that is sacred. Humans are just a part of all of this.

I personally feel as though human beings have trancended to the level of parasite at this juncture in earths history. But that a whole other subject...

as far as science religion are concerned take it on an as needed basis. embrace it all, reject it all, build your own ideas from it.

 

[jbark]

Clouds,

I can respect your bent towards critical thinking. I can also respect the amount of time you've spent hanging out in the forum - reading, writing and preparing (to the extent that is possible) before just jumping in. This, to me, shows respect for the molecule and respect for yourself as well. I don't think any of what you've written reads like a rant at all - but I do have to say with all due respect...

You don't know what you don't know, and until you go, you won't know. Go and you'll know. But know that even once you go, you still won't know. You'll never ever ever ever ever ever know. I know that looks like gibberish, but believe me when I tell you without the slightest hint of irony, bravado or spiritual superiority... you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know you don't know...

When you do finally take the plunge and find yourself within eye of The Experience, you'll be met with a space and mode of being in which science, philosophy, linguistics and logic are equally and utterly lacking.

wordsawisdom Art, words-a-wisdommmm... (nicholson/shining inflection inferred)!

JBArk

 

[benzyme]

by the way...i know i've said this before, but technically, nothing in science is proven. you can only show evidence and correlation of observed events. you can show a "proof of concept", but you can never 'prove' an event because nothing is ever exactly reproduced.

 

[gibran2]

...I've generally always felt the same way about psychedelics. I've spent a lifetime with hippies, ravers, new agers, trancers, freaks, etc. I speak all forms of gobbledygook but don't particularly believe a word of it. The trip is in us, not the substance. The magic is in us, not the substance. We awaken, not the world around us. Many people put far too much reverence in the substance and the imagined perceptions of the world around us, instead of in ourselves...

Different substances have different effects on the body and mind. And they do have effects. A breakthrough dose of DMT doesn’t produce the same effects (either immediate or long-term) as eating a chili pepper. I don’t understand why you would say mescaline (or other psychoactive substances) has no more significance than capsaicin?

I’m definitely not a “hippie, raver, new ager, trancer, freak, etc.” nor a “30's something American slacker pothead turned entheogen fan” (further from it than you might guess), but that doesn’t mean I don’t attach special significance to substances that are capable of producing profound mind-altering effects.

I respect DMT and the effects it produces. I cannot produce the same state of mind without DMT. Yes, as you say, the magic is in us. But it’s not that simple. The magic is in us and DMT – the experience requires both.

 

[ThirdEyeVision]

So how is science better? It's like saying tomato soup is better than airplanes

LOL :lol:

 

[Pokey]

Meh.

Nothing is sacred.

Yes. Nothing.

Pokey the Heretic

 

[benzyme]

agreed.

nothing is universally sacred, not even babies or marriage.

 

[jbark]

Sacred is an anagram of scared, creased and scarred (ok, ok, I added an R, (and an extra E previously...)...)

Just a little humour. But appropriate and descriptive anagrams, no?

Jkrab

 

[Pokey]

Hmmm... Well, maybe humor is sacred.

Pokey

 

[TheNtt]

I did not post this thread to discuss Philosophy vs Science.
My arguments are there in my first post and everyone can comment about it, I already replied to that.

My main point is that I don't think drugs or chemical compounds are sacred.
I think that if something is sacred at all... it's the human brain. Not an unconscious pile of DMT or MDMA or Psilocyibin.

you're missing the greater picture;

Existence is sacred.
Thus DMT is sacred, thus the human brain is sacred.

 

[benzyme]

defining something as sacred is opinion; it's like deciding what's considered beautiful.

 

[jamie]

^^what he said..

The main problem I have with the origional post, is how negative it comes off sounding. That is why i think its just some person comming here to rant about something..like it was posted out of some anger towards people that choose to view DMT as sacred within their personal worldview..you act liek you are so sure of what you are saying, using examples that arent sound so the whole thing is not rational at all..its a waste of space imo becasue it serves to sort of take cheap shots at others beliefs, which isnt what this place is about.

If you would have made your post a little less biased, more open minded and less negative it would be recieved so much better.

You also claim that its not the drug at all, that its all inside of us..and also add this shulgin quote that gets tossed around liek this alot..

"Drugs don’t do things, they only catalyze what’s already there. No drug has skill. It’s you who has skill. You only have to know it." - Alexander Shulgin


I dissagree with that. Really I cant even believe that shulgin said that. You claim to follow science?..what is so scientific about that? Im sorry but my brain does not contain psilocin..or salvinorin A..or mescaline..so tell me, how the hell can I have a salvinorin experience without ingesting salvinorin A? hw is it me that has all the skill? What you are saying is basically the same thing as saying i dont need food, becasue all the nutrition I get from my food is already there within me..that is not scientific at all..its just silly..unless you want to tell me you are a breathetarian...

Ever heard the expression that something is "greater than the sum of its parts"?..thats whats going on here..when I take psychedelics its a hell of alot more than just me or my brain and it's skill..its me plus a psychedelic chemical..