DMT Secretion During REM Sleep

[Metatron]

Apparently DMT is released during normal metabolism but is also secreted during REM sleep. It is my understanding that the amount of DMT released during REM sleep is in higher quantities than what is secreted during normal metabolism. I was just wondering if the fluctuation of DMT levels during these two states has been documented? Is the quantity of DMT released during REM sleep at much higher levels than it is in during normal metabolism? Is the fluctuation in DMT levels negligible?

 

[benzyme]

ditch the notion
reason: the serotonergic system is inhibited during REM sleep.

DMT is a 5HT2A ligand. during REM sleep, 5HT2A receptors would be inactive.

besides..at any given time while awake, the plasma level would be high picomolar/low nanomolar level. far lower than a level that would give subjective effects; and MAO makes quick work of it, unless protected by an maoi like pinoline. that would mean if any effect you got from endogenous DMT signaling, it would likely occur during theta-wave states, just before falling asleep or in deep meditation (i.e. breathwork).

the other possible scenario is during a time of extreme stress: the methylating enzymes responsible for DMT production are expressed in tissues which are active during 'fight-or-flight' response.

 

[Metatron]

That's quite fascinating. Thanks for the information benzyme. It makes me wonder if there is even a reason for DMT secretion during REM sleep at all, or during normal metabolism for that matter.

 

[benzyme]

DMT is a tryptophan-metabolism anomaly
the metabolic pathway is separate from serotonin (which converts to acetyl-serotonin then melatonin).
in fact, dmt production would inhibit serotonin production.

 

[ShamanDoc]

ditch the notion
reason: the serotonergic system is inhibited during REM sleep.

DMT is a 5HT2A ligand. during REM sleep, 5HT2A receptors would be inactive.

During REM sleep maybe, but what about before?

its also a sigma-1 ligand isn't it?

Also, couldn't DMT be the triggering factor for REM sleep? Released before REM, and not during? Those receptors may be inactive during REM, but smoked DMT itself also causes receptor activity to change, possibly shutting off those receptors in much the same way (I'm basing this on the notion that the reason you need to wait an hour in between doses is because of a temporary change in neuro-receptor activity)

Also, besides various chemical arguments, the experiments shows that DMT shares several features of REM sleep patterns. IE the length of the event, the increase of potency from subsequent events (reverse resistance), the time between events, the loss of muscle tone.

Despite this, I'm still rather unsure as to wether or not the pineal is the actual source of endogenous DMT, for dreaming or otherwise. Our current model shows its more likely made in the CSF, and spine (DMT crosses the BBB via active transport, so it doesn't "need" to come from the inside)

comments? am I close?

 

[Morphane]

Night Terrors remind me sharply of some of the things people report on DMT. NT sufferers report strange creatures doing weird things, like building a wall around the bed, seeing strange writing scrolling across walls and ceilings, the feeling of a presence (usually an ominous presence).

I also wonder about alien abduction claims.

 

[endlessness]

well one thing I can comment, dont know how much it counts, but.. The dream experience is VERY different than DMT experience for SWIM, it seems they are very different states of consciousness, so he never really thought DMT was key in dreaming as people sometime think

 

[ShamanDoc]

well one thing I can comment, dont know how much it counts, but.. The dream experience is VERY different than DMT experience for SWIM, it seems they are very different states of consciousness, so he never really thought DMT was key in dreaming as people sometime think

I would normally consider that a valid point, however there are fundamental differences in how much your brain is active when sleeping. You dream when large parts of your higher brain are non-responsive. You experience dreaming with your frontal lobes "off", yet you smoke DMT when you are fully awake, and your higher brain is attempting to "make sense" of the trip.

Waking reality would seem very different if you could experience it without your frontal lobes, so to say that its not so just because it feels different just can't cut it. Subjectivity cannot serve as, or subvert objectivity.

 

[Methtical]

Night Terrors remind me sharply of some of the things people report on DMT. NT sufferers report strange creatures doing weird things, like building a wall around the bed, seeing strange writing scrolling across walls and ceilings, the feeling of a presence (usually an ominous presence).

I also wonder about alien abduction claims.

Having had Sleep Paralysis and having sampled spice (albeit not full breakthrough yet) at this point I can categorically state that the two are not alike in any way shape or form.

Methtical

 

[Morphane]

Night Terrors remind me sharply of some of the things people report on DMT. NT sufferers report strange creatures doing weird things, like building a wall around the bed, seeing strange writing scrolling across walls and ceilings, the feeling of a presence (usually an ominous presence).

I also wonder about alien abduction claims.

Having had Sleep Paralysis and having sampled spice (albeit not full breakthrough yet) at this point I can categorically state that the two are not alike in any way shape or form.

Methtical

Did you experience open eye hallucinations along with sleep paralysis? NTs incorporate more than sleep paralysis.

 

[ShamanDoc]

Did you experience open eye hallucinations along with sleep paralysis? NTs incorporate more than sleep paralysis.

I did. I have had a few lucid and paralytic experiences, some felt like DMT, some didn't. Its so subjective though, I like to look at the objective stuff.

 

[Methtical]

Night Terrors remind me sharply of some of the things people report on DMT. NT sufferers report strange creatures doing weird things, like building a wall around the bed, seeing strange writing scrolling across walls and ceilings, the feeling of a presence (usually an ominous presence).

I also wonder about alien abduction claims.

Having had Sleep Paralysis and having sampled spice (albeit not full breakthrough yet) at this point I can categorically state that the two are not alike in any way shape or form.

Methtical

Did you experience open eye hallucinations along with sleep paralysis? NTs incorporate more than sleep paralysis.

You bet your ass I did, unfortunately.

Read my posts here An experience through weed? - First steps in Hyperspace - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus for a tiny slice of the horrible horrible stuff that I saw when I succumbed to it.

Methtical

 

[Morphane]

Night Terrors remind me sharply of some of the things people report on DMT. NT sufferers report strange creatures doing weird things, like building a wall around the bed, seeing strange writing scrolling across walls and ceilings, the feeling of a presence (usually an ominous presence).

I also wonder about alien abduction claims.

Having had Sleep Paralysis and having sampled spice (albeit not full breakthrough yet) at this point I can categorically state that the two are not alike in any way shape or form.

Methtical

Did you experience open eye hallucinations along with sleep paralysis? NTs incorporate more than sleep paralysis.

You bet your ass I did, unfortunately.

Read my posts here An experience through weed? - First steps in Hyperspace - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus for a tiny slice of the horrible horrible stuff that I saw when I succumbed to it.

Methtical

There goes that theory then. I was also wondering if natural DMT might somehow be related to schizophrenia. Seems the brain is a bit more complicated than I thought.

 

[endlessness]

well one thing I can comment, dont know how much it counts, but.. The dream experience is VERY different than DMT experience for SWIM, it seems they are very different states of consciousness, so he never really thought DMT was key in dreaming as people sometime think

I would normally consider that a valid point, however there are fundamental differences in how much your brain is active when sleeping. You dream when large parts of your higher brain are non-responsive. You experience dreaming with your frontal lobes "off", yet you smoke DMT when you are fully awake, and your higher brain is attempting to "make sense" of the trip.

Waking reality would seem very different if you could experience it without your frontal lobes, so to say that its not so just because it feels different just can't cut it. Subjectivity cannot serve as, or subvert objectivity.

what about lucid dreams? isnt the frontal cortex activated during it? Even being relatively conscious/awake during one's dream with lucid dreaming is still very very different than dmt, at least for SWIM.. what do you think?

 

[ShamanDoc]

what about lucid dreams? isnt the frontal cortex activated during it? Even being relatively conscious/awake during one's dream with lucid dreaming is still very very different than dmt, at least for SWIM.. what do you think?

I still don't think its active even then. Lucid dreams will often end upon attempts to analyze/critique what is happening, but are extended by simply accepting/recognizing whats happening, and just steering it any way you can imagine.

Also remember there may be many other factors at play than just pure DMT. Bufotenine and Pinoline are supposedly active during dreams too, and the combination with a much lower dose of DMT than would be done by dosing, would definitely change the way it feels, perhaps smoothing it out.

 

[۩]

sleep paralysis and DMT...two totally different things...

 

[jamie]

sleep paralysis is just horrible..if you can endure it and make it through than maybe you can lucid dream or AP it's nice but otherwise it's not nice..

If you are having enjoyable sleep paralysis experiences that it's most likely not sleep paralysis..