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Do we need "someone"? (Wester Society Relationships)

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Serenity

Serenity

Rising Star
WARNING: This is loosely related to DMT, but very much to different thought and furthering of the consciousness.

I want to know everyone's opinion on this because I seem to be the only one among my friends that has it. This issue has resurfaced many times with many people lately in my life.

I am an independent person (I would've never guessed this until recently). When I was younger (grade school), I found myself confused with the desire of others to pair or couple up with another person. In the crudest sense, a wife/husband. It seemed pointless.

As life went on (high school), I conformed to this idea and quickly found myself in despair and unfulfilled. I dug myself out of the illusion (some thanks to DMT and Mushrooms) and am now myself again, finding that I function much better and "purer" out of compassion and love when it's untainted by intimate romantic relationships. That is to say, I avoid the ego-driven responses of romantic relationship out of reason of observation. Since this re-realization, I have grown by leaps and bounds, and treat everyone around me with the unconditional love and compassion others try to bestow only upon their families/wives/husbands. Also, my life is balanced, serene, and very enjoyable, save for the hardships of what seems to be a personal harem I was unaware of until this point(lol? not really :? ).

Friends (especially women) around me find this perspective baffling. I am starting to feel like I'm the only person who see's the detriment involved with the majority of western society finding themselves obsessed with the acquisition of a human cane, or better known as a wife/husband.

You will lean on all that supports. Relying on something (or someone) other than yourself to further yourself will lead to weakness and despair. It's interesting, because everyone I say this to asserts they are not looking for someone to lean on.....but we all know how crafty the ego can be in the face of adverse truth. Weeks later, when they hookup with someone who really doesn't matter "for the rest of my life", the truth reveals itself.

Thoughts?
 
Serenity said:
I am an independent person (I would've never guessed this until recently). When I was younger (grade school), I found myself confused with the desire of others to pair or couple up with another person. In the crudest sense, a wife/husband. It seemed pointless.
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pointless is a very interesting word to apply to this,
it may well be pointless for you to pair up, as you indicate

however, consider that you are posting in a public forum and asking for the feedback of others, isn't that also pointless? The reason you post your question could be one of the same reasons that people pair up.

Independence also is specific, do you use any of the infrastructures of society? for example electricity and the internet? what about roads? these things, do you think they are canes or crutches or something like that?

Perhaps the arrangements of relationships are a form of community, something that facilitates mutual benefit and might be thought of as a symbiosis. In many ways we are stronger together than we are apart, so the idea that a relationship confers weakness needs to be considered in specific terms. Clearly when people become emotionally co-dependent they become addicted to a form of validation of self found in those around them, but is the use of a forum online really distinct from this type of behavior?


Friends (especially women) around me find this perspective baffling. I am starting to feel like I'm the only person who see's the detriment involved with the majority of western society finding themselves obsessed with the acquisition of a human cane, or better known as a wife/husband.
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You say that you have a form of love for all, but are you aware of how harsh your condemnation of relationships sounds? You seem to insult the idea, as opposed to accepting that others do not feel as you do. you say it is a detriment, that it is a cane that others are obsessed with, these are all things that appear to be thought rationalizations
You will lean on all that supports. Relying on something (or someone) other than yourself to further yourself will lead to weakness and despair.
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like using electricity? roads? language?
to rely upon language, something you did not come up with, are you leading yourself to despair and weakness?
What is this weakness you speak of? Can you quantify it or demonstrate it?
we all know how crafty the ego can be in the face of adverse truth.
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could this be the case here? you know the story of the fox and the sour grapes?

are you an only child?
are you austic?

were you close to your parents?

think about how children rely upon their parents, is this to their weakness and detriment?

what if independence is weakness and interdependence is strength?

what are the ways a relationship weakens people?
 
Damnit. First of all, I need to choose my words more carefully :) Secondly;

"Clearly when people become emotionally co-dependent they become addicted to a form of validation of self found in those around them, but is the use of a forum online really distinct from this type of behavior? "

You have a point...Well, many points. Give me a little bit to realize how egotistical and one-sided I just realized my point of view is before I can answer those questions. But thank you.
 
Well..I definatily do not see my gf as my "human cane"..

I remained single for like 3.5 years before I met minxx though becasue I had had enough of all the stupid drama of dating girls and feeling like I had to change for them etc..I just did not want to put up with anyone frowning on my use of psychedelics or the fact that at the time I was living about 50% of my life on the beach, even sleeping there..or that I did not have a car or alot of money.. That gets hard to explain to people and I never felt I owed anyone any sort of explaination anyway.

I dont want to settle for anything..I am just not into that. I want personal liberation and freedom from opressive guilt trips. Does that mean I want to be alone? Not anymore. I could never ever imagine being without my gf at this point. I know where I want to be, how I want to live the rest of my life and who I want to spend it with. I found my soulmate and there is not any sort of friction between the way I live my life and the way she lives hers. We share the same fundamental beliefs and are on common ground in reguards to our respect for person freedom and expression and she is just as into psychedelics as I am.. and that is a big one for me. Maybe some would find this shallow but I cannot be with someone who does not trip with me. I require that level of connection and thank god I have it. If I cant share my most personal moments of revelation and ecstasis with someone than what can I share with them?

I think you have to be alone for a time without activly looking for anything else to be able to realize it when it finally steps out in front of you. Dont be so sure that the way you feel now is how you will feel forever.

I think it is normal behaviour actually to want to be with someone. I find the idea that something is wrong with that to be somewhat narcissistic actaully, but I did not always feel that way. It is human nature..it is instinctual.

Alot of people have a very close minded negative approach towards the topic where they think that relationships imply some level of addictive or "needy" behaviour. If that is your reality than I feel for you, but it sure as hell is not mine. I am where I am becasue I was guided here and it is where I BELONG. I am here out of love and that is far more powerful than weak mind games or materialistic feedback loops that attempt to legitimize myself for who I am. I truely feel for people who never fall in love.

I basically lived hermetically for years thinking that was now my way..that I had to be alone to persue this path. I finally realized that was my true delusion. Hermticism has nothing to do with being physically alone. I found my soulmate and we are traveling this hermetic highway together.
 
Fractal, you shed a new a light on what Albert helped me see. Allow me to try and explain myself better. In my experience with myself and observing others, I've yet to witness a relationship that helped more than it hindered, overall. It would seem to me that relationships are a distraction from the furthering of one self, and the subsequent furthering of the human species. However, what you've described sounds much different than what I've witnessed around me. I suppose you really do see only what you want to see.

If I take a step back from my delusion(?), I see that I'm avoiding the fact that what you have is likely what I want to think doesn't exist, for the very reason you said "I truely feel for people who never fall in love". Perhaps it's a fear of "missing out", which makes sense. I suppose I should take a more balanced approach, in that there is a small chance we'll all meet someone who we can serve each other as more than "cains", validation or sex dolls.

To be honest, this being my first time genuinely posting on this forum, I found myself very distraught after Albert easily showed my clear error in understanding and statement, and how personal my message was (without me even realizing it until it was too late). I normally pride (that's the problem) myself on articulation, and it seems my ego got the best of me. I was, in fact, quite unhappy the last few hours after realizing this and had trouble sleeping. Still, it was very welcome and reaffirmed the feeling that I need to meet with the Spice again as it's been far too long, and my thinking is too rigid.

I was afraid to read this post today. Thank you both for not ripping me a new one, even though I probably deserved it. Your wisdom is appreciated.

Namaste
 
Don't sweat over how your posts will be received. You have your own point of view. There's nothing wrong with that.

Personally, I think people miss a great deal in this life if they close themselves off to relationships - but this is just my own point of view. Relationships are messy, perhaps even futile (more often than not, anyway), but all we've really got is each other. Everything, every choice you make is a trade off on some level. Find the things that make you happy and try to stay open to possibilities.
 
I think your point about people letting their relationship and ego get in the way of personal development is incredibly valid and important.

and I agree that healthy relationships are uncommon in society today


I also agree that many people put more energy and attention into obtaining and maintaining a relationship than they do into personal development.

People seem to often know that something is missing, they can feel it, and most do seem to look for it in someone else, but still that feeling does not go away.

I don't think you lack a gift for articulation or observation.
I am rather tactless, please forgive me, my nature is not that of a diplomat.

It is clear that people are frequently distracted from personal development and self cultivation, and you are right that relationships can do this. I wonder if anything isn't capable of becoming a distraction to personal development, for example hobbies, sporting events, jobs, thoughts, addictions, relationships, celebrity hairstyles etc, can't all of these get in the way?

i should admit, i am rather weak and not as bright as i wish i was
sometimes my relationships help my personal development, sometimes they do not
i'll also admit that I need some time alone from time to time and i do not tend to relate to others.
 
I absolutely agree that if you are in a relationship that inhibits you, or that forces you to change, it is not right for you. I have been in one like this before, it just made me hurt and blinkered.

However, now I am in one where we are both different, yet we both accept each others differences. This is what I call (romantic) love. I can understand somes cynicism regarding regarding 'romantic love'. However, there really is 'someone' for everyone (you may find someone that agrees whole heartedly with the futility of such love - ha! a paradox!) - but if get too blinkered, you'll miss them 😉

I dont NEED my partner, yet I think she is jolly nice to be around and she is also my best friend, and she doesnt inhibit me in any way (unless she knows Im going to screw myself up, which I am sometimes prone to do when on an existensialist drinking rampage, for example)... so why should I forsake that? :d
 
"It is clear that people are frequently distracted from personal development and self cultivation, and you are right that relationships can do this. I wonder if anything isn't capable of becoming a distraction to personal development, for example hobbies, sporting events, jobs, thoughts, addictions, relationships, celebrity hairstyles etc, can't all of these get in the way?"

I began wondering the same after reading what you said, and my thoughts changed dramatically while I tossed and turned in bed last night. Although I admit it was hard to read, your "lack of tact" was quite the gift in this scenario, and I imagine it often serves you well. I was clearly looking for balancing opinions on this, but I first needed my ego in check, which you swiftly delivered as gift to my brain via fed ex instant delivery :lol:

"I dont NEED my partner, yet I think she is jolly nice to be around and she is also my best friend, and she doesnt inhibit me in any way (unless she knows Im going to screw myself up, which I am sometimes prone to do when on an existensialist drinking rampage, for example)... so why should I forsake that? Very happy."

The person who I often debate this with is also the closest in my life to what you described above, and she's aware of it. This is likely the cause for a lack of open perception due to repeated onsloughts of bias reason and discussion, and that phrase is also what unfortunately reinforces the viewpoint, hahaha.

It seems life is a paradox that enjoys bending my mind over and having it's esoteric way with me. LOL.
 
Just try not to reside in a cell of your own creation, a cell that has walls which are thicker than steel :p .

PS. I am the last person worthy to give advice to anyone, but there it is anyway! hehe

PSS. Humanity can sometimese be paradoxical, by defintion (we do things even though they know they are wrong, we give moral judgment then act hippocritically etc etc etc...) Animals act instinctively, we should know better (and we do, but we dont listen to ourselves! blargh!) . So worry not, you are not alone! And hey, at leat you are questioning things 😉
 
fractal enchantment said:
I remained single for like 3.5 years before I met minxx though becasue I had had enough of all the stupid drama of dating girls and feeling like I had to change for them etc..I just did not want to put up with anyone frowning on my use of psychedelics or the fact that at the time I was living about 50% of my life on the beach, even sleeping there..or that I did not have a car or alot of money.. That gets hard to explain to people and I never felt I owed anyone any sort of explaination anyway.

I dont want to settle for anything..I am just not into that. I want personal liberation and freedom from opressive guilt trips. Does that mean I want to be alone? Not anymore. I could never ever imagine being without my gf at this point. I know where I want to be, how I want to live the rest of my life and who I want to spend it with. I found my soulmate and there is not any sort of friction between the way I live my life and the way she lives hers. We share the same fundamental beliefs and are on common ground in reguards to our respect for person freedom and expression and she is just as into psychedelics as I am.. and that is a big one for me. Maybe some would find this shallow but I cannot be with someone who does not trip with me. I require that level of connection and thank god I have it. If I cant share my most personal moments of revelation and ecstasis with someone than what can I share with them?
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I live(d) a similar situation.. When I first met my current girlfriend, I really felt just like you did, I really thought I had found my soul mate. The synchronicities were through the roof, and there was no doubt that the universe brought us together. We were so compatible and our lives matched up so seamlessly, it was mind boggling. The law of attraction was truly in effect. True validation of a higher power IMO. I thought to myself "I'm gonna marry this girl and be with her the rest of my life!". It's now been about a year and a half, and it has been wonderful. We've learned so much from each other, and had lots of fun, but while I carely deeply about her, I feel I am at a point now where I would like to move on and go meet new people and see what else is out there waiting for me.

Yes I could make this work for the rest of my life and it may indeed be fulfilling to walk that path.. But I really think it would be a 100 times more fulfilling to move on. This one experience is so good, and when two stable individuals are on the marriage path, there are signs, you know what they are, which are exits off of that path. They are optional and although I don't have to follow them, I think it would be so much more satisfying to do so. The possibilities of compatibility out there are infinite, there is no one soul mate IMO.. So I'd much rather be out there meeting new and different portions of myself through ought my lifetime, if you know what I mean, and enjoying their company, as oppose to one significant and likely stagnant, one. It's like how we have multiple friends, you wouldn't want just one friend would you? I think the women I would encounter who shared the same views as me on my journey would be much more enjoyable to be around also because I think they would be more developed as individuals than the average person in society these days.

Let me explain how my thoughts have changed since I began thinking that I was gonna marry her: I feel like while there are obviously gonna be people out there that are so incredibly compatible with you that it may seem like you two are meant to be together forever in this lifetime.. I think such compatibility is only suppose to imply that this is who you are suppose to be with right now, or that this person would be a good choice to be with for right now, but not the only good choice. I feel like this makes sense, and if society were conditioned to think in such a way as opposed to the way it is now, then I think the different aspects of human personality would be integrated much more properly into a working whole on a massive scale allowing for a more developed culture to emerge out of our own and improve the quality of life by gaining the understanding that allows ourselves to not look down upon such behavior. Behavior in which one enjoys the time someone has with someone right now, but is comfortable knowing that this person may not want to be with them forever and that's okay because it's nothing personal. There are just so many beautiful people out there in the world that limiting yourself to just one or even a handful in a lifetime seems sooo.. Naive..

I also think there are times when it will be nice to be alone, maybe even for years at a time (that doesn't mean I won't be getting laid though), or times when I'll be able to have more casual relationships with a select set of woman, as long as I'm honest in all my thoughts and actions with them. I don't mean to sound like I'll be some player either, I'm not gonna bang everything that moves, and I'm not gonna play with women's hearts or minds either. I'm just saying that there will be a certain quality of woman out there which I will be holding out for that is emotionally, physically, intellectually, and etc what I'm looking for. I don't like to settle, and when I find one of such caliber, I will know, and don't want to be held back by another relationship which I am tied down to when that happens. Again, not that I will be banging every woman I see, or even that many at all, just a select few throughout a lifetime who have attracted me and me vice versa to spend some time with and enjoy each others super-compatibility.

And all of this is not to say that near the end of my life that I wouldn't maybe marry someone to die with, but that's not to say that I will either. I don't think it's necessary but definitely an option.

I sort of think religions of the past and the powers that be today push the idea of marriage, family values, and etc to control people, to put restraints on the mind which result in some sort of neurosis on a massive scale in the world population, turning whole societies into caricatures of themselves, etc.

I also think a lot of people feel they need to be with someone and love someone so much that they need to be with them forever is because they don't love themselves enough, or don't have a fulfilling life otherwise. This is not the case for everyone, but it's definitely common.
 
I think its silly to devote your life TOTALLY, FOREVER. That is indeed naive...when its time to end it, it will end. I think when you start thinking in terms of FOREVER, the relationship is doomed - too much responsibility and pressure. With my relationship, I am taking it one day at a time. I also dont believe in soulmates either, btw. I think Fractal and Minx may have found something pretty special though, by anyones standard.

If you think its time to end it matukul, maybe it is. But I wouldnt discount the possibility of when you find someone even more amazing, you may want to stick with them.
 
I believe there are many different aspects of life worth developing oneself in. One of them is the inter-subjective, communication. I find this can be done with almost everyone but in a partnership I suppose it would be stressed even more than with *just anyone*. There is also this idea of agency vs. communion - where agency is the mode in which the individual wishes to exist autonomous and communion the mode where it wants a kind of symbiosis with others. Both of these are interesting in themselves and I believe a good ballance between both modes is the most reasonable approach because one can learn something from either, and being able to respond in both ways in any given situation is certainly an advantage. Sometimes one mode might be better than the other, but I doubt one is ALWAYS better than the other.

In that sense, I think relationships are important, can be great and can be messy, can be something to explore and to grow from and with, and if it feels right then I think one should go for it. On the other hand I don't think one should force it, or stay in one that isn't working just for the sake of having *someone*. If the opportunity for a relationship does not present itself... then there is lots of other stuff to explore.
 
^^^ Indeed. I believe the approach I described is a good balance between both modes as you say.

jdubs said:
I think its silly to devote your life TOTALLY, FOREVER. That is indeed naive...when its time to end it, it will end. I think when you start thinking in terms of FOREVER, the relationship is doomed - too much responsibility and pressure. With my relationship, I am taking it one day at a time. I also dont believe in soulmates either, btw. I think Fractal and Minx may have found something pretty special though, by anyones standard.

If you think its time to end it matukul, maybe it is. But I wouldnt discount the possibility of when you find someone even more amazing, you may want to stick with them.
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And yes I agree when you start to think in terms of forever, it's doomed. While most people tend to correctly avoid thinking about that, they don't make the leap to understanding that the person they're with right now will likely not be with them forever, as well as understanding how to properly handle the day when that person tells them they would like to move on. It is not a common way of thinking among people in our society.

If only it were, it would make my situation easier. :(
 
I think in some cases a relationship can aid in personal development. In fact I KNOW it can. When I was on my own I was a wreck...if my relationship ends now I would not be a wreck any more, even though I was alone. In that way, I have grown since being in this relationship. A little love can go a long way...
 
fractal enchantment said:
attachment to non-attachment is still attachment.
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Totally.

I am in a relationship that has tested my concepts and predilections. I believe in fate now, where before I thought it was remote as a possibility.
 
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