I voted yes. Salt is the culprit. After finding effective dose, wanted to test la dieta interactions. I am a vehement advocate of your idea Jamie to have a small bowl of berries half hour before commencing. Even over ripe fruit has had no negative interactions. But salt ... consumed 10 hours before, or upto 6 hours after will trigger an intolerable headache for most of the following day.
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do you experience tyramine interactions with caapi or rue?
- Thread starter jamie
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^ a salt reaction is not a tyramine reaction though..and the poll was to judge tyramine..thanks though for posting as this is still good inforamtion. I personally have no issues with salt..but I dont get a whole ton of salt in my diet..I put a bit of sea salt and olive oil in my salads and I sometimes have miso soup, and thats about it for salt in my diet. I wonder why salt would do that for you? Salt should raise blood pressure and harmalas lower it, so I just figure a bit of salt after is fine for me as it might just balance it out a bit..I dunno though I just know that I am fine with it. Im eating a huge salad right now with a pinch of salt and I drank just over 3 hours ago.
Maybe you are more sensitive to high blood pressure from salt?
Maybe you are more sensitive to high blood pressure from salt?
..regarding doses of MAOIs, it's not really about how much of an MAOI someone takes, but what percentage of gut/brain/liver MAO is being inhibited (and for how long) which varies in individuals..i wouldn't want to do the experiment, but i believe at a high enough % of inhibition most would experience reactions from potentially toxic amines..
..salt i think is subtle (& not a tyramine or even amine), but after not seeing any problem with it for 15 years, i think the purist in me can now see a slight clarity difference..
..salt i think is subtle (& not a tyramine or even amine), but after not seeing any problem with it for 15 years, i think the purist in me can now see a slight clarity difference..
TheNtt
Rising Star
Thanks for the informative thread!
It seems to me the ayahuasca diet recommendation is not only about the potential tryamine interaction, but reflects the spiritual belief's of amazonian culture. Abstinence from sexual orgasm is also strongly encouraged for example. It is believed by some that if anyone who has recently had sex is present in the preparation of ayahuasca they can taint the entire brew. Additionally, I've been told that not following the food recommendations may make it harder to have visions, and that the purge becomes increasingly difficult.
So I know this is steering away from the original intent of the thread, but I'm curious if any of you have noticed any differences in the aya experience itself (aside from tryamine / maoi interaction symptoms) when following or not following the diet. Has there been any noticeable differences in lucidity or the ability to have visions, or things of this nature?
I realize from a scientific standpoint, the sexuality aspect especially, may not make sense. However, I am preparing for a stay with a Peruvian shaman and fully intend on embracing the experience with the utmost respect for their culture's beliefs and practices surrounding aya. I have been following the diet pretty strictly, having cheated once with food in 6 days of dieting thus far. I've also allowed some cannabis despite instructions to refrain totally (though drastically less than my normal consumption and plan on refraining totally days before ceremony). In your experience have subtitles like this affected the outcome of your journey? Is there too many variables to say? All input is appreciated!
It seems to me the ayahuasca diet recommendation is not only about the potential tryamine interaction, but reflects the spiritual belief's of amazonian culture. Abstinence from sexual orgasm is also strongly encouraged for example. It is believed by some that if anyone who has recently had sex is present in the preparation of ayahuasca they can taint the entire brew. Additionally, I've been told that not following the food recommendations may make it harder to have visions, and that the purge becomes increasingly difficult.
So I know this is steering away from the original intent of the thread, but I'm curious if any of you have noticed any differences in the aya experience itself (aside from tryamine / maoi interaction symptoms) when following or not following the diet. Has there been any noticeable differences in lucidity or the ability to have visions, or things of this nature?
I realize from a scientific standpoint, the sexuality aspect especially, may not make sense. However, I am preparing for a stay with a Peruvian shaman and fully intend on embracing the experience with the utmost respect for their culture's beliefs and practices surrounding aya. I have been following the diet pretty strictly, having cheated once with food in 6 days of dieting thus far. I've also allowed some cannabis despite instructions to refrain totally (though drastically less than my normal consumption and plan on refraining totally days before ceremony). In your experience have subtitles like this affected the outcome of your journey? Is there too many variables to say? All input is appreciated!
TheNtt wrote:
when strongly MAO inhibiting, the system becomes more sensitive to a range of compounds, some of which may interact in a toxic way..
..i certainly don't think you can eat just anything and have ayahuasca (above a dosage) and expect to feel totally ok..
also, some amines in foods behave like drugs when MAOIs are present (e.g. cocoa, grapefruit) which could be argued interfere with the clarity of the dmt/harmala experience..and can also lead to much greater nausea..
i think there's more to the ayahuasca diet than just spiritual beliefs..i've found generally a 'clean' diet, which is open to variation, leads to a much clearer launch platform for ayahuasca, and more 'reliable' results from the medicine..
.
..while this thread's all about tyramine interaction, there are plenty of amines other than tyramine which can become toxic when allowed into bloodstream..the compounds in un-soaked lentils and chick-peas are such examples..
when strongly MAO inhibiting, the system becomes more sensitive to a range of compounds, some of which may interact in a toxic way..
..i certainly don't think you can eat just anything and have ayahuasca (above a dosage) and expect to feel totally ok..
also, some amines in foods behave like drugs when MAOIs are present (e.g. cocoa, grapefruit) which could be argued interfere with the clarity of the dmt/harmala experience..and can also lead to much greater nausea..
i think there's more to the ayahuasca diet than just spiritual beliefs..i've found generally a 'clean' diet, which is open to variation, leads to a much clearer launch platform for ayahuasca, and more 'reliable' results from the medicine..
.
xoanon said:
SOY sauce has one of the highest tyramine contents of anything. I have eaten salt 'o' plenty during high maoi doses and no problems..
and YES tyramine interacts very badly and could even potentially kill you get enough while on full MAOI. I would venture to say 200mgs of harmaline + half a bottle of soy sauce would probably cause some type of fatal brain hemmorage.
But tyramine is metabolized by MAO-B as im sure you all know, while harmalas inhibit MAO-A.
I would be interested in nen expanding a bit more on his thoughts. What other substances are metabolized by MAO-A and not by MAO-B, that can cause interactions with harmalas?
I would be interested in nen expanding a bit more on his thoughts. What other substances are metabolized by MAO-A and not by MAO-B, that can cause interactions with harmalas?
"and YES tyramine interacts very badly and could even potentially kill you get enough while on full MAOI. I would venture to say 200mgs of harmaline + half a bottle of soy sauce would probably cause some type of fatal brain hemmorage."
You need to do more research. Like endless said the harmalas in rue and caapi are RIMA's and effect maoiA at these levels..not maoB which is the enzymatic pathway for tyramine metabolism. I have eaten tons of soy sauce after taking 200mg of rue alklaoids without any problems.
If you read this whole thread it was already discussed that any real tyramine interactions with RIMA harmalas seem to be at very high dose..like 10g or more rue..at very hgih doses these RIMA's do have slight maoB inhibtion..but there is NO evidence that it is enough to kill somebody. Please Please do not spread more myths about these substances. Sure there might be some interaction..but it would be more like a bad headache etc than you actually dying..and who drinks a whole bottle of soy sauce after downing a dose like 10g of rue?
You need to do more research. Like endless said the harmalas in rue and caapi are RIMA's and effect maoiA at these levels..not maoB which is the enzymatic pathway for tyramine metabolism. I have eaten tons of soy sauce after taking 200mg of rue alklaoids without any problems.
If you read this whole thread it was already discussed that any real tyramine interactions with RIMA harmalas seem to be at very high dose..like 10g or more rue..at very hgih doses these RIMA's do have slight maoB inhibtion..but there is NO evidence that it is enough to kill somebody. Please Please do not spread more myths about these substances. Sure there might be some interaction..but it would be more like a bad headache etc than you actually dying..and who drinks a whole bottle of soy sauce after downing a dose like 10g of rue?
Just to note, as Ive said this many times. I do not agree with the "traditional dieta" for myself (not saying others shouldnt follow), and I think there are more historical/contextual reasons for it than actual spiritual/pharmacological reasons.
I think when the indigenous people started interacting with the modern western world, they suddenly had big access to things such as refined sugar and salt, and other foods for which they were not prepared for (maybe lacking enzymes too, etc?). Then, when they drank aya, they probably would have gotten the message: "hey you, stop eating all that crap". And for probably many shamans/indigenous people/mestizos this was indeed so. Now, this, over the years, gets passed on as an inflexible rule, when in fact it made sense to one specific context.
I think translating to the western world, a lot of people eat really bad. Lets face it, most westerner's diet is CRAP. It is full of refined sugars, industrialized products, conservatives, excess meat with all sorts of antibiotic and whatnot, etc etc. So of course it also makes sense that some of these people would benefit from suddenly changing their diet for a few days to "purify" themselves, to get some insight on their own habbits. Then these people come back and say how great the diet is.
BUT.. What is the actual message that ayahuasca is giving? IMHO, at least for me, the point is NOT to stop eating food X Y or Z when taking aya, but to EAT HEALTHY... Not just before and just after aya, but ALWAYS. I have completely changed my diet since I started taking psychedelics in general but specially ayahuasca.
I have tried different kinds of "dietas" when taking ayahuasca, and feel there's nothing there for me, it didnt change anything for my experiences. I feel that what did make the trips significantly better is just eating good in daily life. Appart from that, whether its aya or mushrooms or whatever, I always try to eat specially light during the tripping day, regardless if it has salt or cheese or whatever, all these things can be there, but excess of anything is bad, even the "allowed" foods IMO (like for example refined pasta would be ok in some dietas if it has no salt (majapanix once mentioned this too) , doesnt matter if you eat 3 plates full, and IMO thats really NOT something one should eat before tripping)
Lastly, dietas are arbitrary constructs, they are NOT universal. For example in some dietas you could NEVER have sex or alcohol. But what about the Shuar which even have a ritual where they drink fermented alcoholic drinks together with ayahuasca (and have sex too IIRC). Im not sure if it was also the shuar but there was one tribe that mixed freebased coca leafs with ayahuasca, while to other tribes that would be big no-no.
Follow what YOU think is right for YOU, but dont tell others what they should or should not eat, unless its specifically related to some pharmacological danger, which in the case of tyramine and MAO-A inhibitors, is not the case. At least thats how I feel.
I think when the indigenous people started interacting with the modern western world, they suddenly had big access to things such as refined sugar and salt, and other foods for which they were not prepared for (maybe lacking enzymes too, etc?). Then, when they drank aya, they probably would have gotten the message: "hey you, stop eating all that crap". And for probably many shamans/indigenous people/mestizos this was indeed so. Now, this, over the years, gets passed on as an inflexible rule, when in fact it made sense to one specific context.
I think translating to the western world, a lot of people eat really bad. Lets face it, most westerner's diet is CRAP. It is full of refined sugars, industrialized products, conservatives, excess meat with all sorts of antibiotic and whatnot, etc etc. So of course it also makes sense that some of these people would benefit from suddenly changing their diet for a few days to "purify" themselves, to get some insight on their own habbits. Then these people come back and say how great the diet is.
BUT.. What is the actual message that ayahuasca is giving? IMHO, at least for me, the point is NOT to stop eating food X Y or Z when taking aya, but to EAT HEALTHY... Not just before and just after aya, but ALWAYS. I have completely changed my diet since I started taking psychedelics in general but specially ayahuasca.
I have tried different kinds of "dietas" when taking ayahuasca, and feel there's nothing there for me, it didnt change anything for my experiences. I feel that what did make the trips significantly better is just eating good in daily life. Appart from that, whether its aya or mushrooms or whatever, I always try to eat specially light during the tripping day, regardless if it has salt or cheese or whatever, all these things can be there, but excess of anything is bad, even the "allowed" foods IMO (like for example refined pasta would be ok in some dietas if it has no salt (majapanix once mentioned this too) , doesnt matter if you eat 3 plates full, and IMO thats really NOT something one should eat before tripping)
Lastly, dietas are arbitrary constructs, they are NOT universal. For example in some dietas you could NEVER have sex or alcohol. But what about the Shuar which even have a ritual where they drink fermented alcoholic drinks together with ayahuasca (and have sex too IIRC). Im not sure if it was also the shuar but there was one tribe that mixed freebased coca leafs with ayahuasca, while to other tribes that would be big no-no.
Follow what YOU think is right for YOU, but dont tell others what they should or should not eat, unless its specifically related to some pharmacological danger, which in the case of tyramine and MAO-A inhibitors, is not the case. At least thats how I feel.
TheNtt
Rising Star
^^ Now that's what I'm looking for! Thanks bud 
Pretty much nailed how I've been feeling about it, so it's nice to hear it from someone more experienced with aya. This will be my first time with the brew, finally. A healthy diet and lifestyle was probably the loudest message I got from my initial dmt explorations. In following the diet as recommended by the shaman, my diet really hasn't even changed too much.
Pretty much nailed how I've been feeling about it, so it's nice to hear it from someone more experienced with aya. This will be my first time with the brew, finally. A healthy diet and lifestyle was probably the loudest message I got from my initial dmt explorations. In following the diet as recommended by the shaman, my diet really hasn't even changed too much...endlessness, i think you actually posted this recent paper Samoylenko et al. 2010 somewhere, which says:
..but you're right my statement about toxic amines is vague..
i have been lead to believe quite a wide range of dietary amines could potentially elicit toxic symptoms when combined with MAOIs, depending on dosage..but, no, i don't have a great deal of info.,l..and point out that in western society there hasn't been a long history of researching what happens at 'entheogenic' MAOI doses..much is speculative..
many legumes (incl. lentils and chick-peas) have potential nasties like the Lupin alkaloids..which include the fairly toxic sparteine, lupanine, and cytosine..and quinolizidines..
also, many foods, particularly meats, contain biogenic amines, the most common are cadaverine, histamine, β-phenylethylamine, putrescine, tryptamine, tyramine, spermine, & spermidine..while many are not so toxic in isolation, the combined effect could be another thing..cadaverine and putrescine are the most toxic of these..
i doubt the majority of these amines (combined with entheogenic doses of MAOIs) would lead to fatalities, but some lupin alkaloids (and obviously nicotine) could..
..but you're right my statement about toxic amines is vague..
i have been lead to believe quite a wide range of dietary amines could potentially elicit toxic symptoms when combined with MAOIs, depending on dosage..but, no, i don't have a great deal of info.,l..and point out that in western society there hasn't been a long history of researching what happens at 'entheogenic' MAOI doses..much is speculative..
many legumes (incl. lentils and chick-peas) have potential nasties like the Lupin alkaloids..which include the fairly toxic sparteine, lupanine, and cytosine..and quinolizidines..
also, many foods, particularly meats, contain biogenic amines, the most common are cadaverine, histamine, β-phenylethylamine, putrescine, tryptamine, tyramine, spermine, & spermidine..while many are not so toxic in isolation, the combined effect could be another thing..cadaverine and putrescine are the most toxic of these..
i doubt the majority of these amines (combined with entheogenic doses of MAOIs) would lead to fatalities, but some lupin alkaloids (and obviously nicotine) could..
Thanks for the post, nen888!
I did make a thread about this and I got some very interesting answers from infundibulum and joedirt. They brought to my attention that IC50 value (the enzyme activity number you just mentioned) is an inverse scale, and its not linear, but exponential. So MAO-B inhibition those values show is actually very small.
I think it would be interesting to research on how those different compounds are metabolized so we can have a bit more idea on potential dangers. In any case I think its pretty safe to say that in any reasonable (even strong-psychonautic) doses, and with a reasonable "light" amount of food as proposed in the FAQ, that would not pose a danger.
I did make a thread about this and I got some very interesting answers from infundibulum and joedirt. They brought to my attention that IC50 value (the enzyme activity number you just mentioned) is an inverse scale, and its not linear, but exponential. So MAO-B inhibition those values show is actually very small.
I think it would be interesting to research on how those different compounds are metabolized so we can have a bit more idea on potential dangers. In any case I think its pretty safe to say that in any reasonable (even strong-psychonautic) doses, and with a reasonable "light" amount of food as proposed in the FAQ, that would not pose a danger.
I am speaking from actual experience...I have had suffered from a severe hypertensive crisis after eating chinese food after a strong aya trip..I took about 3 grams of caapi not 10.
I am not just spreading rumors..A massive hypertensive crisis can actually cause a brain hemmorage, not just a bad headache
Could it be that different people react differently from MAOI...and perhaps some people such as myself get A and B inhibition from smaller doses.
My point is making a blanket statment that tyramine does not interact with reversible harmalas is not really the wisest thing.
I am not just spreading rumors..A massive hypertensive crisis can actually cause a brain hemmorage, not just a bad headache
Could it be that different people react differently from MAOI...and perhaps some people such as myself get A and B inhibition from smaller doses.
My point is making a blanket statment that tyramine does not interact with reversible harmalas is not really the wisest thing.
..re the IC50 values, thanks and good point endlessness..though (and someone please correct me if i'm wrong) at that value for MAO-B they are still reasonably potent (as opposed to very potent) ..in this paper Inhibition of monoamine oxidase activity
by antidepressants and mood stabilizers, vaules of 15-30µmol/l are considered reasonably potent..Moclobemide (the medication, less potent) for instance has an IC50 value for MAO-A of 1105µmol/l..
jamie makes a good point that the amount of MAO-B inhibition with harmine would become noticeable only at higher doses..
by antidepressants and mood stabilizers, vaules of 15-30µmol/l are considered reasonably potent..Moclobemide (the medication, less potent) for instance has an IC50 value for MAO-A of 1105µmol/l..
jamie makes a good point that the amount of MAO-B inhibition with harmine would become noticeable only at higher doses..
Eliyahu, you mentioned it in the other thread, to which I responded.
You are self-diagnosing after a difficult experience you had (strong purging/shaking after eating chinese food at aya comedown). You are then making suppositions of the pharmacological causes, and generalizing for everybody else. Also claims such as that hypertensive crisis can cause a brain hemmorage, leads one to think you actually say harmalas + certain food can cause brain hemmorage, which is a GIANT leap from you vomiting during aya (with or without chinese food) and feeling bad during it (even if very strong/bad physical effects). I hope you can see the flaw in your reasoning and at least consider alternative explanations before being so sure.
You are self-diagnosing after a difficult experience you had (strong purging/shaking after eating chinese food at aya comedown). You are then making suppositions of the pharmacological causes, and generalizing for everybody else. Also claims such as that hypertensive crisis can cause a brain hemmorage, leads one to think you actually say harmalas + certain food can cause brain hemmorage, which is a GIANT leap from you vomiting during aya (with or without chinese food) and feeling bad during it (even if very strong/bad physical effects). I hope you can see the flaw in your reasoning and at least consider alternative explanations before being so sure.
Here is a related thread that has my tale of tyramine pain and horror
smoking moai with dmt - First steps in Hyperspace - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
smoking moai with dmt - First steps in Hyperspace - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
Endlessness,
I understand wherre your coming from but I believe I have had enough Ayahuasca to know the difference between a difficult experience and a medical crisis.
I have had extremely severe maigrane headaches and I would rate my chinese food experience as 100 times more painful than the worst magriane headach I have ever had, I had most of these symptoms:
I have taken ayahuasca over 100 times. And I had this headach of doom happen once.
All my symptoms matched the official symptoms of hypertensive crisis.
"Chest pain
Arrhythmias
Headache
Epistaxis
Dyspnea
Faintness or vertigo
Severe anxiety
Agitation
Altered mental status
Paresthesias
Vomiting
There is also this description of severe cases:
"The brain shows manifestations of increased intracranial pressure, such as headache, vomiting, and/or subarachnoid or cerebral hemorrhage."
If anyone here is so sure that there is no interaction with tyramine..
why not take the pepsi challenge and eat 3grams syrain rue followed with some sesame chicken and then let us know what happens!
I understand wherre your coming from but I believe I have had enough Ayahuasca to know the difference between a difficult experience and a medical crisis.
I have had extremely severe maigrane headaches and I would rate my chinese food experience as 100 times more painful than the worst magriane headach I have ever had, I had most of these symptoms:
I have taken ayahuasca over 100 times. And I had this headach of doom happen once.
All my symptoms matched the official symptoms of hypertensive crisis.
"Chest pain
Arrhythmias
Headache
Epistaxis
Dyspnea
Faintness or vertigo
Severe anxiety
Agitation
Altered mental status
Paresthesias
Vomiting
There is also this description of severe cases:
"The brain shows manifestations of increased intracranial pressure, such as headache, vomiting, and/or subarachnoid or cerebral hemorrhage."
If anyone here is so sure that there is no interaction with tyramine..
why not take the pepsi challenge and eat 3grams syrain rue followed with some sesame chicken and then let us know what happens!
I must say I agree with endless here. I understand that you experienced something horrible..but what we can really extroplate from that is just up in the air. There is no data at all to suggest that you can experience tyramine interactions from such a low dose of caapi. Like nen said above it would take a very large dose of harmine to begin inhibiting MAOB and effect tyramine metabolism at all.
I seriously doubt what you experienced was a tyramine reaction. It could have been any number of things. Without any proof and concidering all the data we have on RIMA's and what it takes to begin to inhibit MAOB I think it is very safe to assume something else was going on here.
I seriously doubt what you experienced was a tyramine reaction. It could have been any number of things. Without any proof and concidering all the data we have on RIMA's and what it takes to begin to inhibit MAOB I think it is very safe to assume something else was going on here.