does extraction reduce side effects?

[Espurrr]

i've consumed alot of extracted harmala salts, isolates, converted batches to thh, whole/powdered raw seeds, teas, etc...

something ive noticed, no amount of extraction and purification ever improved the side effects associated with rue seeds for me, it was just the same as using the seeds

taking isolated harmaline usually produced all the side effects associated with rue seeds even more intensely
isolated harmine or harmine + thh batches were very benign almost no side effects at all
roasted rue seeds were also very benign almost no side effects at all
swallowing powdered rue seeds or making raw rue seed teas had similar side effects as full spectrum harmala salts

does extraction reduce side effects in any meaningful way? or is it just because of harmaline specifically?

with harmaline i realized further you take it after your last meal the less of a hell ride it will give you, albiet it will still be sedating, disorienting motor function wise, even if there is little nausea or the projectile vomit , so it seems to be disruptive to the digestive process/organs

but harmine and thh barely had any such effects unless in very high doses, and even then it was not as pronounced

what is the moral of the story here, tell people to roast their seeds instead of go through the extraction process ? would dramatically decrease negative reactions in the beginning instead of traumatizing the guy forever

 

[northape]

Roasting seeds just degrades harmaline into harmine giving you a gentler more mellow experience. Ime, old dry seeds are exactly like roasted ones, because they basically go through the same degradation over a long period. However, side effects are the wrong way to look at it, imo. They are just undesirable effects based on personal preference. These are rue effects. There are no sides here.

Harmaline is a godsend too and has a range of benefits nonexistent in mellow seeds. My strongest and deepest journeys were with fresh Iranian seeds when they were still available. This work goes far beyond any alkaloids if you just let that Western materialist mindset go for a minute. I work with rue as a Spirit, and yes your worldview influences and changes the experience quite a lot.

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

I wonder if these side effects some report might also be caused by other molecules - and there are many - present in harmal seeds, such as tannins, quinolines, peganine, and so on. For example, I experience virtually no nausea or unpleasant side effects when I consume the extracts, even in high doses, although they are supposed to contain, on average, about 50% harmaline. The same is true with doses of harmaline alone.
The phyto-chemistry of harmal includes a wide range of molecules, of which harmalas represent only a small part. Its pharmacology is wide too and might explain why some people don't have much unpleasant side effects while other feel them strong, due to individual body chemistry and, also, lifestyle. I'm not sure that harmaline is responsible for all the side effects one might experience with rue, which are perhaps - at least partly - unfairly attributed exclusively to it.
That said, I really appreciate harmaline and have absolutely no desire to eliminate or avoid it; in my opinion, this molecule is largely responsible for the psychedelic effects of harmal. In comparison, harmine alone feels rather neutral to me.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

You can try combining rue with lemon balm and ginger, they reduce the side effects somwhat ime, lemon balm helps with the rough body load and ginger helps with stomach issues.

 

[HumanOcean]

I'm pretty sure you've answered yourself, taking isolated Harmaline-free alkaloids (Harmine/THH) gives you little to no side effects, that means Harmaline is the culprit, I get heavy tracers, music sounds very non-interesting, reduced sex drive, nausea, motion sickness, headaches (if I don't drink plenty of water), magnesium deficiency symptoms, stomach cramps, urge to vomit, sedation and stimulation at the same time, general malaise and the list goes on.

Maybe Harmaline depletes minerals from the body, because it's not just an MAOI (that has a longer half-life compared to Harmine), but has a wide range of psychoactive effects on its own that are very taxing to the body due to it being a potent substance, it certainly has its own benefits, has been used for millennia by ancient civilizations, and even adds its own touch and flavor (imparts different themes and unique green'ish colored visuals/visions) to the DMT-space.

But just like everything, the dosage alone makes a thing a poison, so better keep the dosages low and try to see if the side effects subside with prolonged continued use, because the body starts to tolerate the negative effects while at the same time there's a reverse-tolerance to the positive effects, so you start to become more sensitive to its beneficial effects.

I suggest incorporating 50mg of Harmaline freebase along with 100mg/150mg Harmine freebase and 100mg THH freebase. Otherwise, just keep your Rue seeds (or combined Harmine/Harmaline extract) dosages low.

Have fun!

 

[Espurrr]

yes i never said harmaline is bad per se

just because its usually the first thing we say to someone who asks about harmalas is to extract it which is a tedious process that may ultimately make no difference in the outcome

sometimes it happens that people are put off harmalas in their first experience i believe due to some misunderstandings that exist out there and are probably hard to set straight at this point

its a shame because the harmalas could have become a very significant tool for transformation and in so many cases are discarded due to these side effects

 

[doubledog]

Imo most unpleasant harmala effects are from harmaline, so common extraction could not change that.
Tbh, I see here mostly recommendation for using the seeds whole, extraction is mostly for fun or for people who like purer alkaloids.

 

[Jamie01]

Yes

 

[Jamie01]

It reduces the gastric load which makes the trip feel cleaner with more focus on the pure energy.

 

[Ruebacca]

Someone the other day here (sorry idk who rn) told me to try boiling the seeds for a while.

With 15min full boiling, 2,5g felt way more chill and less speedy trippy, less side effects for sure can confirm.

 

[blig-blug]

It depends on what one calls side effects, as it's a quite arbitrary distinction that depends on one's preferences and intentions. IME extraction will reduce nausea and gastric side effects, and it won't reduce the effects of harmaline. I like and get benefit from the effects of harmaline, so to my use case those aren't side effects.

 

[Jamie01]

My rue is now a decade old. Maybe I need new stuff if harmaline really degrades so fast. It still works anyway

 

[dithyramb]

Side effects is a term I don't find appropriate for rue. I call the bad things happening with tropane nightshades side effects, but for me with rue there is only a palette of different energies, and some could be more desirable than others, but imo it is a whole beneficial package. I.e. any harshness is akin to the stress one feels with a cold shower, and has its own benefits. Of course, the principle of hormesis applies and it is beneficial only in a certain dose range.

Harmaline is what gives spiritual depth to rue ime. I actually found one harmine dominant strain, and while it is very enjoyable, it doesn't reach the depths of spiritual opening that I get with harmaline rich strains. And I am sure if studied properly, the added benefits of harmaline can be measured within the materialistic parameter that is the domain of science. Like different kinds of antiinflammatory or neuroprotective or antidepressant effects than harnine or tetrahydroharmine.

One of the special strains I specified this year is insanely potent and with harmaline heaviness like an elephant, but it feels very clean too (I eat the seeds or drink a boiled tea of powdered seeds). As a person of faith in God's creation (nature), it seems obvious to me that the entire package is what brings this perfection, and some additional elements (can be anything) in the seeds could be modulating the harshness of harmaline.

Extracting the alkaloids is just not part of my world. But my geographical explorations have revealed a picture of rue characters being an infinite pallette, capable of having vast differences with just 20km distance, and also I have sensitized enough to identify many different threads of energies. Not all seeds are perfect, and some can be very harsh. So I understand the need to refine when one only has a single batch to work with.

Btw, Jamie, 10 year old seeds? Using even 1 year old seeds has been unthinkable for me all through these years. Even when the amount of alkaloids in the seeds appear to be high enough, the sharpness of the spirit evaporates quickly after harvest... Let's see if I can prevent that with immediate vacuum packing, which I did this year.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

Harmaline is what gives spiritual depth to rue ime.

I def agree, but it would be really interesting to know how the other lesser known compounds contribute, i don't seem to find much info about them.

There is a big difference ime between boiling a tea for 30 mins, and eating the powdered seeds, and chewing whole seeds, even though they all have the that same harmaline heaviness, there are still very distinct differences, tea for example feels like having the harmala experience without being too "out there", powdering the seeds gets closer to the full experience of chewing, but still, chewing the seeds has another layer of intoxication that isn't present in any other route, and i don't think it's the harmaline playing the biggest role.

 

[Jamie01]

I have never felt compelled to remove harmaline. The only reason I ever had was to try harmaline and ended up feeling it’s important.

 

[dithyramb]

There definitely are other components which make rue rue. Part of it only comes through with eating. "Out there" is a good way of characterizing the difference when the seeds are eaten. It can feel spiritually unsafe unless the seeds are fresh.

 

[Icon]

I have never felt compelled to remove harmaline. The only reason I ever had was to try harmaline and ended up feeling it’s important.

Have you tried caapi? Specifically THH?

I have less experience with harmalas than most people here I think, but I had a rougher experience with rue a few times and found caapi extracts to be better for me. I think that's due to caapi generally having a higher ratio of harmine to harmaline. And from what I've heard, rue doesn't have THH while caapi does. I've tried a 1:1 harmine : THH mix (purchased, I didn't verify what it was). But I similarly felt THH is important based on my experiences with that caapi product, which excluded harmaline IIRC.

 

[Jamie01]

I have used caapi a lot, but never THH in isolation.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

There definitely are other components which make rue rue. Part of it only comes through with eating. "Out there" is a good way of characterizing the difference when the seeds are eaten. It can feel spiritually unsafe unless the seeds are fresh.

I will definitely start growing my own rue, thank you.