Does mindset affect the DMT experience or just the interpretation of it?

[gibran2]

I am aware that I am playing a Fool's Game by trying to scientifically determine whether DMT is "real". However, I doubt that this will stop me (and probably many others) from continuing the quest as the potential payoff overcomes the low probability of success.

On a similiar note, one of the problems I have with respect to DMT is open eye visuals. In my experiences on non DMT-substances, I have seen the walls move around a bit and the sky turn into a Sistine Chapel kind of war scene for a bit. However, the whole time I was viewing this I was quite aware that this was not reality.

What has struck me about DMT is how the (vast?) majority of users claim it is "realer than real".

But here is the problem. There are tons of OEV reports which, in my opinion, sound suspiciously like my non-DMT experiences mentioned above. I kind of doubt that the walls move around in a DMT OEV. So if these visuals don't really happen, does this not cheapen the Closed Eye Experiences when one is thrust in hyperspace?

There are NO experiments that one can conduct to prove the “reality” of existence. The probability of success is not low – it is zero. It is the subjective nature of our conscious experience that prevents us from ever knowing what is ultimately “real”. I tend to believe that the concept of reality itself is an abstraction created by human beings in an attempt to explain subjective conscious experience. So depending on how you define “real”, it might be true that nothing is real.

A DMT experience goes much deeper than just visuals. It isn’t the visuals alone that lead some of us to believe what we’re experiencing is real. There’s much more to it, and it cannot be easily explained. It must be experienced!

 

[Global]

I've had surfaces breathe for me like on LSD and objects shift in distorted sizes as with my shroom experiences. JamesLove, you ask if LSD or shroom or salvia experiences are real, and I would say they are very real. Remember that the way that we perceive this reality in our everyday sober waking consciousness is not necessarily the way it truly exists. Think of it from the perspective of animals who can detect wavelengths of light outside of our perceivable spectrum such as infrared (like snakes) or ultraviolet, and so on...Don't you think that these creatures would be pretty surprised only to discover that there are beings who see the way we do? After all, colors don't actually exist in the physical world. They are merely our interpretation of the light that bounces off objects or through mediums. Likewise, in our waking consciousness, we perceive the world and matter as relatively stable. This is most easily viewed with solid objects that appear to remain completely still. The matter of fact is that nothing is ever completely motionless unless it is in conditions of absolute zero (which as a reminder, we have not even achieved in laboratory settings yet). Anyway, the point is that just because something seems stable, doesn't mean it truly is, and when on LSD or shrooms or whatever your poison may be, this becomes pretty obvious. On these substances, for myself, things not only seem to shift in size as my eyesight would tell me, but I can verify it with my sense of touch. They feel like they are shifting with the visual distortions. The space around it most likely bends as well, which is most likely why if you were to throw a ball at a post while sober, if you miss the post, it won't bounce back.

 

[ragabr]

\However, the whole time I was viewing this I was quite aware that this was not reality.

How could it not be reality? You appear to have a great many assumptions in your line of thought that haven't been unpacked at all.

 

[JamesLove]

While I can't say anything about DMT, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with shrooms and LSD. I don't think those "hallucinations" are real. While they alter your synapses and such to the point where you see things in a different perspective, I am skeptical that those "events" such as walls moving a bit are really happening.

If you push down on your eye you will see double. Is that real? I don't think so. Just because you see something does not make it real. I have had times when I am in a passenger in a car looking at the lines in the road while intoxicated on merely booze and I see the lines as double. If I shake my head a bit, the lines are back to normal. Right now I can cross my eyes and the page goes into two about 2 inches apart. If I hold two fingers about 6 inches from my eyes, a magical "third finger" pops up.

I very, very, very seriously doubt a third finger is coming into reality for 2 seconds and my eyes crossing merely make me aware of this.

Therefore, at least some hallucanations are not real.

Here is what I consider to be the best example of a LSD hallucination sans LSD:

Is this video altering your perception so you are seeing the world as it really is? Or is it altering your perception to make it more flawed?

I could be wrong about all this and I am open to suggestions. However, I think it is fairly clear to me that some "hallucinations" are indeed your perception being messed up. Therefore, there must be some sort of Yes or No or All to which hallucinations are false.

 

[DoingKermit]

Hi james, I think you need to just try it and find out for yourself if you think it is real or not.

 

[Felnik]

that video is very interesting..
I must say that related to DMT the visual distortions,
albeit amazing at times are only one small part of the essence of the dmt experience.

The core experience is way beyond any kind of simple melting of walls and kaleidoscopic fun house.

My journeys have changed into a whole new level of experience that no longer seems to deal with much visual distortions.

Its strange to me. Now i am dealing head on with some kind of energy force .
Its so different now I'm still trying to process it.

 

[kyrolima]

You won't be able to proof it. And if you are intelligent, you won't assume it is real just because you see or experience another world while on DMT.

Anything is just an INTERPRETATION of REALITY.
REALITY itself does not exist.
If no observer is present, no reality is happening!

There is no point in trying to find out the truth!

 

[clouds]

There is no point in trying to find out the truth!

Kind of like turn on, tune it, drop out? :lol:

 

[Global]

Yes, it's true that if you touch your eyeballs, or cross your eyes, or whatnot, that obviously there aren't now magically two of what you see. I would however not call these hallucinations so much as optical illusions, but what I was saying before with the shrooms and acid, is also that it doesn't merely seem to be a trick of the eyes either in that my other senses consistently confirm those distortions. I also don't think that your drinking example is a very solid one either in that alcohol is not a hallucinogen. It dulls and inhibits mental reflexes that may cause tricks of the eye, but shouldn't be regarded as hallucinations.

 

[Global]

I've also seen that video, and in response to that, it's really the equivalent of touching your eyes. You've really in no way altered any internal chemistry that would cause you to perceive things differently, but rather play a physical trick on your eyes which dissipates within 5 seconds or less. I do not consider this to be a hallucination either. To me there is a big difference between illusion and hallucination.

 

[clouds]

Nice point gobalswg.

but...

Let's not confuse the term "illusion" with the term "hallucination" and the term "visions".

LSD can induce OEV that are mostly: Illusions.
LSD + THC can induce CEV that can be classified as: Mild visions.

High doses of Datura or Brugmansia produce: Hallucinations.

DMT can induce CEV that are mostly: Visions.



When someone crosses their eyes they are having an optical illusion.
When someone takes LSD and sees a friend or a DJ with 8 arms, that is called a: psychedelic induced illusion.

When someone has fever and sees his/her dead grandma sitting on the couch for 5 second, then blinks and its gone, that is a hallucination.
(Schizophrenics present both illusions and hallucinations (mostly auditive))

When someone smokes Salvia or DMT... or takes mushrooms in a dark and silent room.... they are having visions. (Not illusions or hallucinations).

 

[ragabr]

Of course the "hotdog" is really there. Interpreting it as an object in physical space would incorrectly describe it, but it doesn't make the experience any less real.

 

[Global]

I've had the tendency to view the "DJ with 8 arms" scenario not so much as the DJ truly having eight arms, but rather perhaps that the DJ's arms are creating vague impressions in the fabric of reality that quickly dissipate. I'm probably wrong about this, but that was my intuition upon seeing similar phenomena on LSD.

 

[JamesLove]

Well enough people seem to more or less agree with my attempt to set up a "baseline" of reality in saying that me crossing my eyes probably doesn't make me suddenly have 2 computers screens.

So I'll take that and move forward with my philosophical deduction attempt.

It was also more or less agreed that me seeing two lines on the road on alcohol, probably does not mean there were actually two lines on the road. Alcohol was more or less dismissed because it was not a psychedelic.

OK. I agree up to this point.

So now this brings us to other drugs. There are plenty of trip reports on heroin and meth where if people take enough of it they start seeing some entities as well.

Are these "real"? Would these meth entities really exist if user did not take meth that day?

We haven't even gotten to pure psychedlics yet.

I am trying to say, where is the cutoff? Me crossing my eyes does not show me an alternative reality. Me drinking does not show me an alternative reality. Alcohol is a drug.

So how can you tell which drug is showing you an alternate dimension/reality and which one is merely messing with your mind? Where is the cutoff?

 

[clouds]

Yep gobal, I mentioned it because I knew it would be an example that many could relate to. (DJ w/ 8 hands)

I guess the thing I want to say is that if we are to make some progress in understanding (or trying to understand) these visual phenomena, then we should improve our language (by naming things that show particularities).

To be honest, those videos about swirling lines and dots that try to represent the "LSD" visuals (not the experience) fall short. At least, haha, I think that an aquarium or snorkeling or the heat of a desert highway is nearer to LSD visuals than those Youtube videos. But anyway...

Terence McKenna insisted that we should improve our language and be clear about the terms etc, and yet, he made a big mistake calling his book "True Hallucinations". Because Mushrooms and DMT do NOT produce False Hallucinations or True Hallucinations. They produce Visions.

Are Visions real or imaginary? That's the debate that been going on here. That what OP wants to find out.

Are illusions real? Well, an illusion is a distortion. An alteration of a shape. But the original and "real" shape is there... but the observer thinks the shape has different characteristics, being the cause an altered perception (LSD, TCH) or an optical illusion (3 Fingers, Crossed Eyes).

Are Hallucinations real? Well, a hallucination is a perception in the absence of a stimulus. KEY-FUCKING-WORD: Absence.
Schizophrenics sometimes tell that there is a person there that is trying to hurt them... but I don't see it. There is not even a regular person there. They are "creating" that imaginary "person"(visual hallucination). Sometimes they hear voices when there is absolute silence (auditory hallucination). Sometimes they feel insects inside their skin when they are just sitting there in the benches (kinesthetic hallucinations). They imagine things without any stimulus and they are not seeing mandalas. They are having Open Eyed Hallucinations.

Which drugs can create Hallucinations? Datura and other tropane alkaloids. Probably others too, I don't know. But the thing is that both on schizophrenia and Datura intoxication the person under a state of delirium. That means, the person thinks that what he sees is real because it SEEMS real. It is on this world, the people they see have regular clothes, the animals they see have an anatomy that is based on the anatomy of "normal" animals. Sometimes they see giant spiders... but the spiders look like "normal" giant spiders. They don't look like like something indescribable. So, are hallucinations real? I don't know... it's complex. I guess they are not "real", but of course, I don't know the nature of reality and therefore I couldn't say.

I mean, what IF it turns out spirits are real and a schizophrenic patient says he/she sees spirits? What is one supposed to do?


Now... Visions are real or imaginary?

Well, you are altering your perception with a drug. But that doesn't mean the visions are not real. After all, if you study psycho-pharmacology you'll see that our brain perceives thanks to certain drugs. Except that those drugs aka neurotransmitters are endogenous. So... in my opinion it is VERY (and I mean VERY) possible that the particular visions DMT produces may be real. Because, in a sense, what the DMT could be doing is that is expanding your perception so that the brain can receive more signals, like if the brain was some kind of antenna. [Add more theories here]

So in short, my opinion is:

Are illusions real? Of course they're not.

Are hallucinations real? I guess they're not.

Are visions real? I guess they are.

 

[open'nheart]

i have a similar opinion on the matter as you do clouds.

to me there is also a substantial difference when describing these substances, in the meaning of the words visuals and visions. visuals representing impressions...visions or visionary scenes as unfolding scenerios taking up center stage within the mind.

i agree, and i recognize that there are qualitative differences between illusion, hallucination, and visions...also within each respected phenomenon there is the matter of degree to which we are expiriencing them. hence the difference in the terms visual and vision. i often feel im passing through layers of "visual" phenomenon before im able to access visionary scenes....example: theres the tunnel or the grid visuals...but the visions i find on the other side of it, at this threshold i can consiously relax and allow myself to go deeper, or resist and remain closer to the "surface"

 

[JamesLove]

While I think clouds is doing the best job in trying to articulate what I am getting at, I am going to have to be the one that points out an inconsistency of his.

"hallucination is a perception in the absence of a stimulus"
Then he says datura and other alkaloids in affiliation with hallucination. Obviously datura is a stimulus.

Perhaps his schizophrenic analog would fit best into his definition. However, there seem to be a lot of people who use the term hallucination in conjunction, with say, LSD.

I am probably getting a bit picky here on focusing on his definition rather than his main point. But it is better to have a solid base to work with.

 

[gibran2]

Well enough people seem to more or less agree with my attempt to set up a "baseline" of reality in saying that me crossing my eyes probably doesn't make me suddenly have 2 computers screens.

So I'll take that and move forward with my philosophical deduction attempt.

...

Most people assume that everyday experience is real. When discussing reality in a practical rather than metaphysical sense, I agree. So what is it about our everyday experiences that lead us to believe they are real?

I think this is a much more interesting question than questions concerning whether or not the realms visited via psychedelic experiences are real.

So, what is it about everyday subjective experience that leads you to believe it is real?

 

[open'nheart]

imo the difference between hallucination and vision is that on some level, hallucination is fed by the individuals unconcious mind and feelings. vision is impersonal, trancending the individuals projections. both can be witnessed in the same trip.

the difference is expiriential

 

[Global]

I forget what expert it was who I was reading who has his life work in hallucinations, and he defined hallucination as any instance of "mind wandering". He therefore includes things such as daydreams as hallucinations. Granted the term "true hallucination" may not be the most suitable label for what it describes, but he defined a "true hallucination" as one in which the person who is hallucinating believes it to be real. You may therefore witness the same exact hallucination as both true and false under different instances. His example was "Oh, there's a green man over there, but I'm just on acid" as compared with "there's a green man over there....I better go get my gun to defend myself." Schizophrenics tend to have these true hallucinations where they believe what they're seeing to be real. They not only see people and animals and the like, but they also can see things that match the descriptions of many "aliens" seen on DMT. In regards to when they claim to see spirits or whatnot, I'm particularly fond of a dog whistle analogy. That is to say that just because you can't hear the whistle, doesn't mean that the sound doesn't exist in this physical universe, and more importantly that other beings (such as dogs) can't understand how you possibly couldn't hear it. Schizophrenics are labeled as crazy, but I think a lot of the time it boils down to the fact that we simply can't prove that what they're claiming is valid, because the human reaction is more often than not, "If I can't perceive it, and you can, you're either crazy or full of shit."