Does our level of consciousness influence the insights we receive?

[fink]

I is a state of being at it's most unique. We can also think of it as a skill that needs to be perfected. In fact we can think of every state of being as a skill that needs to be perfected.

Atheism, as an example, should not be a way of life. But it should not either be completely discarded. It should be a practiced skill to be utilized when deeper understanding might get in the way of fun.

Ego death, another, should not be a permanent state. But again a skill to be used when the 'I' gets in the way of learning.

Or any other state of being that we might stumble into on our adventure through conciousness. Not permanent, to be learned as a skill for the correct application.

'I' is one of the first states of being we learn and perfect. Don't discard it! 'I' is the thing we are best at being.

 

[Ajqij]

I is a state of being at it's most unique. We can also think of it as a skill that needs to be perfected. In fact we can think of every state of being as a skill that needs to be perfected.

Atheism, as an example, should not be a way of life. But it should not either be completely discarded. It should be a practiced skill to be utilized when deeper understanding might get in the way of fun.

Ego death, another, should not be a permanent state. But again a skill to be used when the 'I' gets in the way of learning.

Or any other state of being that we might stumble into on our adventure through conciousness. Not permanent, to be learned as a skill for the correct application.

'I' is one of the first states of being we learn and perfect. Don't discard it! 'I' is the thing we are best at being.

The perfection of skills is a useful way to deal with elevating our capabilities, so I'm with you on that point Fink. When it comes to "I' itself, my sense is that the more capable I becomes, the more in the way it tends to get. That's not to say there aren't sklills associated with "i-ness" that should not be enhanced. For example, the ability to self-reflect is a skill that 99% of humanity has very little experience with, let alone even any basic awareness of.

When it comes to "I" itself, (i)m inclined to suggest that (i)t is a mere fabrication on the part of our consciousness that wants its biological host to have a stake in what's going down in reality. But just as my many LSD trips from the age of 15 to 30, where I was the designated driver during hero doses, I had no awareness of "I" yrt retained total control of the vehicle. (I recall me and two tripping buddies dropping triple hits of LSD 25 listening to Chicago's tune "25 or 6 to 4" watching the scenery through the windshield melt into the earth. Didn't confuse the lack of I one bit as I calmly drove us all to the state fair.)

So for me Fink, I is inconsequential and personally I-less has stopped developing or perfecting it long ago.

 

[fink]

But isn't being I the main quest of this game? We can hope to keep improving the skill of being I until the end. The better we are at the game of being I, the better we can explore all wild paths down which I can completely lose itself.

 

[Ajqij]

But isn't being I the main quest of this game? We can hope to keep improving the skill of being I until the end. The better we are at the game of being I, the better we can explore all wild paths down which I can completely lose itself.

The extraordinary thing about Being is that it can accommodate any I, we, us, they, or none of the above or below! I-less for one am in gratitude to travel along with YOU in this journey called life Fink! Blessings

 

[northape]

The main point about plant medicines is awareness / presence / being.
So one's level would surely influence the experience.
It's our inner demons that guide ceremony towards healing and change.
What would happen if there were no stuff to work on?
A childlike open mind & heart would produce a different response compared to a highly traumatized individual.
It's all about consciousness and growing into whom we truly are. Plant medicines may not be the answer, but it's a useful tool for sure.

 

[rkba]

The way I 'see' it at the moment.

Perception defines reality, reality defines consciousness, and consciousness defines perception.

A, possibly, endless recursive loop where one can 'influence' the path the road takes to reach a (predetermined?) destination.

The plants allow you to shift your perception, changing your consciousness, and thus redefining your path on reality.

 

[Ajqij]

The main point about plant medicines is awareness / presence / being.
So one's level would surely influence the experience.
It's our inner demons that guide ceremony towards healing and change.
What would happen if there were no stuff to work on?
A childlike open mind & heart would produce a different response compared to a highly traumatized individual.
It's all about consciousness and growing into whom we truly are. Plant medicines may not be the answer, but it's a useful tool for sure.

Greetings northape. Lovely points, thank you. Awareness / presence / being . . . indeed, but the widespread use of plant medicine and many who are discovering the power they possess are not as interested in those main points. (I, for one most certainly am given my love for the Ancesestors, Curanderos, and Elders I have been blessed to meet along my journey.

And "level," yes like a DNA spiral there are many arising and descending levels to engage in. In my experience the "higher" levels empower me to see more of the landscape residing between the finite and the infinite, (like climbing a ladder up high and peering beyond the obscurity of a maze).

What would happen if there we no "stuff" to work on? Incredible invitations into wholeness, traveling, and discovery that only those who've been cured of needing healing can access. And yes, good point as "useful tool" or "vehicle" as I like to think of plant medicine.

 

[northape]

Greetings northape. Lovely points, thank you. Awareness / presence / being . . . indeed, but the widespread use of plant medicine and many who are discovering the power they possess are not as interested in those main points. (I, for one most certainly am given my love for the Ancesestors, Curanderos, and Elders I have been blessed to meet along my journey.

People may not be interested, but plants have their own agenda here. Who knows what's happening on a sub-consciousness level?
The best kind of healing is usually done behind the scene.

And "level," yes like a DNA spiral there are many arising and descending levels to engage in. In my experience the "higher" levels empower me to see more of the landscape residing between the finite and the infinite, (like climbing a ladder up high and peering beyond the obscurity of a maze).

In an absolute sense, there are no levels, but from our egoic perspective there are levels for sure. Anyone disagreeing would lie to himself.
We grow until we reach the infinite. A drop falls into the ocean and becomes it.

What would happen if there we no "stuff" to work on? Incredible invitations into wholeness, traveling, and discovery that only those who've been cured of needing healing can access. And yes, good point as "useful tool" or "vehicle" as I like to think of plant medicine.

I was going after upaya term from Buddhism or skillful means as it translated.
Original Buddhism terminology was based on a medical paradigm of that time, where nirvana is a state of well-being.
Greetings and all the best

 

[Kobranek]

Not sure if I subscribe to the concept of attaining higher levels as it seems to promote an elitist mentality or an us versus them dynamic which opens the door for exploitation or an abuse of power at the least.

I'm glad to of not had my first experiences with a shaman or a curandero as it seems there's a lot of preconceived notions that brings more baggage to the table that I'd care for. I definitely don't want to be a part of any cultural misappropriation as these folks have devoted their lives to the practice. Much respect!

I remember for a long time that I thought that I was cursed some how and that I needed a shaman or curandero after going through unexplained health problems at an early age. I had an experience where I went in and asked for healing from the entities for them to laugh at me and tell me that I have that power why would I want to seek what is already obtainable through my own means.

 

[Ajqij]

Not sure if I subscribe to the concept of attaining higher levels as it seems to promote an elitist mentality or an us versus them dynamic which opens the door for exploitation or an abuse of power at the least.

I'm glad to of not had my first experiences with a shaman or a curandero as it seems there's a lot of preconceived notions that brings more baggage to the table that I'd care for. I definitely don't want to be a part of any cultural misappropriation as these folks have devoted their lives to the practice. Much respect!

I remember for a long time that I thought that I was cursed some how and that I needed a shaman or curandero after going through unexplained health problems at an early age. I had an experience where I went in and asked for healing from the entities for them to laugh at me and tell me that I have that power why would I want to seek what is already obtainable through my own means.

Not sure what @northape meant by "levels," but for me, I hold the concept more like "scales of magnituide" from the micro to the macro, so no elitism there in my estimation. And curanderos and elders . . . well, having sat with many and traveled with them into other worldly realms, I can say with a fair measure of humility that all "baggage" along with its "porter" the mind, is left at the door before entering any heart-journeys with them. And a question for you . . . without having experienced what it might have been like to take your first journey with a curandero, how do you know it was better to go it alone? Seems like an assumption to me, but hey, no offense meant. And as for asking for healing from entities, I too learned that lesson many years ago during hero doses of psilocbin. I wasn't laughed at, but was definitely mentored to take personal responsibility for my own well-being . . . especially if was going trip beyond the 6 or 7 gram scale.

 

[rkba]

Not sure if I subscribe to the concept of attaining higher levels as it seems to promote an elitist mentality or an us versus them dynamic which opens the door for exploitation or an abuse of power at the least.

I agree, there are no levels. I imagine it as a pattern of infinite reality-options that call themselves from within.

Which reality-options you choose to accept is yours and yours only. It is very liberating in one sense and very frightening in another, because it means that you are responsible for every event you experience. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Liberating because you are in control of your experience. You just have to learn how to steer this ship, which is not something that is typically taught.

Listening to your Heart and accepting your Ego is a good start, I think. Repairing the 'fissure' so one can learn, for themselves, along the path that will result. Along this path one can observe themself from the reflection that comes back.

I have had thoughts/wishes that manifested themselves, sometimes smooth and good, other times ragged, scary and ugly. Good, bad, or ugly, my thought/wish was accomplished.

There is so much to learn on this beautiful reality-path that is created by our perceptions called upon from within our conscious Being.

Bruce Lee said it well; Be fluid, like water.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I think we should notice how our feelings about something may taint how we are trying to objectively see it. It's our presumption that anything hierarchical is promoting anything that approaches elitism. But what if such levels are just facts of the matter just like how we can observe a hierachical system baked into physical reality, ie subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, complex molecules, molecular structures, cells, moving all the way up to larger structures.

One love

 

[Ajqij]

I think we should notice how our feelings about something may taint how we are trying to objectively see it. It's our presumption that anything hierarchical is promoting anything that approaches elitism. But what if such levels are just facts of the matter just like how we can observe a hierachical system baked into physical reality, ie subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, complex molecules, molecular structures, cells, moving all the way up to larger structures.

One love

Yep,k pretty much the way I see it as well, V (and pretty much way I articulated the levels notion myself).

 

[rkba]

Not one really knows, but collectively we 'feel' it.

 

[Ajqij]

What's that Zen saying? . . . . . "those who tell do not know and those who know do not tell." And I really like the poet e.e. Cumming's notion about "feeling," (which you, rkba referred to) Here's how Cummings put it . . . "When I think, I'm a lot of other people, but the moment I feel I'm nobody but myself."

 

[Tripolation]

I found the text below many years ago and saved it. It's worth mentioning here I believe. Check it out and see what you think.

1. The physical level of consciousness

On the first level of consciousness, you identify with the physical and material realm completely. You are an embodiment your external environment, with all its positive and negative aspects. You’ve internalized the values of society at large, and you define yourself in terms of your material successes and status. If you’re unsuccessful and poor, you accept things as they are and believe that efforts for success will be fruitless.
2. The rumblings from beneath

As you transcend to the second level of consciousness, you feel disillusionment with living entirely in the material realm. You start to identify less with external and material reality and begin to look inwards. You spend more time alone and start to feel unmoved by the lifestyle that can be got with money and consumerism. You become attracted to learning about yourself. You begin to distinguish between sex and love, and between superficial power and real power.

3. Emerging

On the third level, you become more sensitive. You feel things more deeply. You start allowing yourself to cry and experience painful states. You begin to ask philosophical questions and develop artistic sensibilities. You come to understand your relation to life, your physical being, your sexual energy, your creativity. You start to empathize with people, sensing what they feel. It starts to become clear what it is to be a human being and a true friend and neighbor, and you start to act on your own values.


4. From passive to active

As you move onto the fourth level of consciousness, you’ve emerged as an individual and begin to take an active role in life. You make your own decisions about what your life should be. You choose friends and situations according to your own values, of which you are now sure. You begin to wield influence over your own thoughts and emotions, manipulating them to fit your values and what you want for yourself. You practice mindfulness and begin to achieve self-mastery, knowing that every thought and deed defines you.


5. Inner balance

By the time you’ve reached the 5th level, you’ve changed your lifestyle in accordance with what’s best for you. You’ve given up destructive habits. You treat your body and mind with respect and maintain harmony and balance through your daily regimen. You’ve stopped living for the admiration and acceptance of others, and you’ve started to live for yourself. You begin to offer service to others based on your own desire to give. You devote time to meditation, creating, and celebrating existence. You make compromises with others and your ego concerns diminish. You begin to manifest your spiritual being in the physical world and in your relationships.


6. Bridging the gap

At the 6th stage of consciousness, the split between the external world and the spiritual realm has become clear to you. You live almost a double life. You are in the world but you no longer feel part of it. You become adept at passing between spiritual and physical realities and you begin to transfer knowledge from the one to the other. You become able to adapt to different situations, adopting personas to fit requirements of circumstances, but holding fast to a higher self. You meditate often and become someone who can resolve conflicts and offer others guidance.


7. Manifesting spirit

When you’ve reached the 7th level of consciousness, you’ve begun to live from spirit. You feel a deep emotional connection with all living creatures. You understand what lies in the hearts of people, you feel their pain and know how to heal them. You express your spirit physically, uninhibited by negative feelings or judgments of yourself or others. You show affection to people with overwhelming warmth and connect with others emotionally.


8. Beginnings of fusion

At the 8th level of consciousness, the barriers between your ego and the collective are beginning to crumble. There’s no longer merely a recognition of your sameness with all those around you, you begin to feel the symbiotic connection that you have with all of creation. You become aware of energies and realize that all feeling, thought, and action is based on vibrations or frequencies of energy. You learn how to master the energy that you’re channeling and begin to see that you can influence the actions of others with your energy.


9. Presence

When you pass onto the 9th level of consciousness, you wield such power over your thoughts and feelings that their strength and purity begin to transform the people you meet. When you enter a room, people feel pure love for you. Your presence becomes so tangible and powerful that it influences others. Your mind, heart, spirit, body, and soul are one. You no longer identify yourself as an individual being with any ego concerns. You have become fused with the universe. At this point, you’re able to lead others en mass.


10. Dissolution of self and ascendance

At the 10th and final level of consciousness, your sense of self has almost entirely disappeared. You have no ego boundaries left standing, and you live in your own spiritual reality. Your connection to the rest of creation becomes coordinated. You move and everyone moves with you. You have become fused with the collective. You’re able to communicate with all beings in one pure language. Your being absorbs the universe around it and is absorbed by it. You are able to channel divine power.

Which level of consciousness have you reached, and what means have you used to get there?

 

[Ajqij]

I found the text below many years ago and saved it. It's worth mentioning here I believe. Check it out and see what you think.

Trip, thanks for this. There are many models for dimensions, degrees, and "levels" of consciousnes, and I find value in them all, including this one you contributed. Lots of important stages of learning, letting go, introspecting, liberating, integrating, transcending, etc. Love working with all these distinctions and more . . . and I've found that my years of hallucinegenic exploartions have helped grease the slide . . . upward? Downward? Laterally?, not sure, but definitely in a spiral configuration with lots of geometric accompaniments! Blessings brother, and good to hear from you!

 

[Tripolation]

I meant to mention that I feel like I have been spiked into higher levels of consciousness similar to the list there. Spiked all the way to being one being of light in an infinite sea of awareness. I currently reside in around level 4 if I had to pick a level. I feel like these spikes I have experienced with psychedelics seeped into my being. The higher levels dripping down and saturating until you evolve to the next level. I don't see the levels as a matter of accomplishment but more of remembering. One level no more important than any other. Each contributing to the beauty of discovery in ourselves. I do strive to reach higher levels by intent but concentrate on the journey that opens up my perceptions level by level. We all follow different paths and have different levels that we are at. No path better than any other and all leading towards the same thing.

 

[northape]

Not sure what @northape meant by "levels,"

You all answered before me, but I'll clarify. By levels, I meant more of a “growth”.
Like one grow from child to adult to an elder. It's a natural process, but from a subjective point of view one can attribute a level to this change in state.
Don't get too triggered by the word and look at what I mean instead

We grow until we reach the infinite. A drop falls into the ocean and becomes it.

It's just language, and language is a code to describe our experience. It's not an experience, but only an approximation.
List of levels is a nice tool to gauge where one at the moment. I wouldn't put too much weight on it, though.
It's an old debate about Mind vs Heart. Infinite is of a Mind-Heart kind, where everything has been integrated and unified.
Someday we will get that all our discussions and pondering are useless. Life just is and needs no logic or confirmation of any kind.
Be still and know that I am God. Being is enough, but as long as we doubt it let's seek and question

 

[Kobranek]

how do you know it was better to go it alone?

I don't other than trusting my intuition that the medicine will show me the way. My first puff of dmt opened up a perception to the strength of the medicine which motivated me to continue to explore further to try and gain a deeper understanding.

Trust in others is a concept that I struggle with moreso than trusting in the plants. Plants have no agenda so I give myself to them more freely. We are products of our environment and so I find value with integrating these lessons into my everyday life. So in a sense I've developed my own unique practice for myself free from others influences and projections.

Acceptance is another factor that is at play. I do come from a lineage where my maternal great grandma was a curandera and my paternal grandfather was a brave warrior who accepted and benefited from using plant medicine in their lives but failed to pass the value on to the next generation. Alcoholism is the legacy that is being passed on.

What is one to do when there are no established practices handed down from one generation to the next and it seems that everyone has an agenda?

Survival instincts are very strong. Strong enough to push one to develop their own spiritual practice that is more in-line with themselves.

At this point I would be open to participating in a ceremony. I'm content with working alone in a non communal setting so it would be a new experience for me.

It seems these higher levels of consciousness are at odds with mainstream society where at #7 you would be known as someone who wears their heart on their sleeve. Which is frowned upon many but not by others such us Nexians .

Great thread btw!