Dosage

[Jees]

...People in circles who drink mimosa hostilis bark since the mid 90's, have traditionally looked to dose between 10-15g. 12.5g is considered pretty standard.

You can see that on forums.ayahuasca.com if you read back over the last decade or so...

But in that same forum there was also a lot of criticism too against those doses. The last consensus I know of was to stay clear of 10 grams (and for first time starters to have 2 to 3 gr). This much arises the question of dmt content in earlier and recent bark that is sold on the market, or the differences in effectiveness in the way to prepare the tea (powder vs. chips etc). Old Crow and myself were notorious mimo drinkers there, and Crowy was a tough guy going +10 for a while but really had to drop down under 10 for it was not healthy anymore. The problem was that the experiences got out of hands and non integrate-able. For me it was clear to settle for 7 grams which corresponds to a 140mg on a 2% level. The teas always induced a purge on me loosing some actives.

It isn't a contest indeed. Start low, build up always does the trick, and mind any new batch.

 

[chocobeastie]

As much as people should try and find their upper limit, it would often also be wise to find their upper limit too.

There certainly is a sweet spot for each individual. And certainly like you say Jees, some experienced people may push it too hard for a while, and then find continuing to dose that high over an extended period of time is just not necessary. And you can have more integrated experiences at lower doses. I think it is also likely that there is a crust that needs to be broken down for people's early experiences, more experienced people normally need less and less the more they drink.

I don't often use Mimosa Hostilis, and like you said, the strength some vendors are selling seems to be rather high since the last time I used it a few years ago, and of course variations between batches can very quite a lot.

A good reason to take the crystal orally is to know EXACTLY how much you are taking.

However, I very rarely do this anymore, as the experiences are never as bright, visual and colorful, rounded as the tea!

 

[Nereus]

I agree that 35mg can be a low dose for some, maybe even unnoticeable, but in regards to recommending doses up to 15g bark I'd have to say it sounds as a warning for me given that which translates to extract would be still a very high amount.

 

[chocobeastie]

This sort of medicine is generally safe, no matter what the dosage.

The issue to my mind, is that people do not take it without a sitter, someone looking over them to make sure they are ok and preferably immobile!

 

[Jees]

...However, I very rarely do this anymore, as the experiences are never as bright, visual and colorful, rounded as the tea!

Eww man you got me doubting to start drinking that horrible tea again :surprised
:lol:

 

[Jees]

...However, I very rarely do this anymore, as the experiences are never as bright, visual and colorful, rounded as the tea!

Eww man you got me doubting to start drinking that horrible tea again :surprised

So there was that tea-visit, meditating on 4 grinded rue + 7 gr mimo, to see how it differs from extracts.
As expected an awful body load/nausea, after 2 hours-in a massive purge the most horrible imaginable. Til then there was only a mellow depth and thought that purge lost all actives. But then it hit, hard. Got blazed/roasted with an energy more than my wiring was capable of, but I remembered this so just let it happen, took like 30 - 60 min to settle to a non hurting level.

* No more visual than extracts, or if so just a little.
* The rue was subdued to the leading mimo, with extracts the rue has more voice. This in contrast to the fact that in the tea was more rue-alkaloids than usually used with extracts.
* A different feel to it, yes. In particular the day afterglow, something really different.
With extracts a more bodily heavenly afterglow, with tea a more spacial aura-ish afterglow.
* Tea is like a plant wise chemo therapy, a serious ordeal to go trough, but you know it's healthy :?:
* Tea is somewhere richer spectrum in it's offerings (confirming chocobeastie) but cannot really say that extracts are much inferior to it, just different is a better word.

It was nice to have a personal retro practice revived. To have a more honest comparison I should adjust dosages a tad better, the tea was actually more potent than the usual extracts pharma, that might skew the outcome somewhat. This is just 1 comparing, not much of a dependable record, so take with a grain of salt.

 

[DeltaSpice]

...However, I very rarely do this anymore, as the experiences are never as bright, visual and colorful, rounded as the tea!

Eww man you got me doubting to start drinking that horrible tea again :surprised

So there was that tea-visit, meditating on 4 grinded rue + 7 gr mimo, to see how it differs from extracts.
As expected an awful body load/nausea, after 2 hours-in a massive purge the most horrible imaginable. Til then there was only a mellow depth and thought that purge lost all actives. But then it hit, hard. Got blazed/roasted with an energy more than my wiring was capable of, but I remembered this so just let it happen, took like 30 - 60 min to settle to a non hurting level.

* No more visual than extracts, or if so just a little.
* The rue was subdued to the leading mimo, with extracts the rue has more voice. This in contrast to the fact that in the tea was more rue-alkaloids than usually used with extracts.
* A different feel to it, yes. In particular the day afterglow, something really different.
With extracts a more bodily heavenly afterglow, with tea a more spacial aura-ish afterglow.
* Tea is like a plant wise chemo therapy, a serious ordeal to go trough, but you know it's healthy :?:
* Tea is somewhere richer spectrum in it's offerings (confirming chocobeastie) but cannot really say that extracts are much inferior to it, just different is a better word.

It was nice to have a personal retro practice revived. To have a more honest comparison I should adjust dosages a tad better, the tea was actually more potent than the usual extracts pharma, that might skew the outcome somewhat. This is just 1 comparing, not much of a dependable record, so take with a grain of salt.

Thanks for doing the ground work Jees. I doubt if i'll ever do the drink.
This weekend was supposed to be an outdoor hilltop pharma event . Planned for the last 2 weeks.
But I forgot that this is England and it rains every day so I had to cancel it . I'm desperate for some healing :|

 

[Jees]

Ahh the rain, too bad.
But pharma can be done inside too :d
Anyway thanks for the tip:

Getting it as we speak.

 

[DeltaSpice]

Special Album

Kincajou (Duck! Asteroid - Extended Version) 44.06 mins : Perfect for long sessions.

 

[○]

On a truly psychedelic dose of harmalas, even 30mg of DMT can be a heavy trip for many people including myself. If it's just enough to begin to activate the DMT then obviously people will need more.

This is why it is somewhat pointless to talk about the amount of DMT in pharma without talking about the amount of harmalas. And it varies so much person to person.

Yup, if I take my usual dosage of freebase harmalas (220-250mg), then typically 90mg of DMT will floor me. Although if I take 200mg freebase harmalas, then 70mg of DMT will floor me. That's the range I usually stay within.

Although, i've taken 300-320mg of freebase harmalas before (heavy ataxia, heavy purging, vision is awash in heavy tracers/reality splitting) and with that dose of harmalas - 40mg of DMT will floor me.

Are you talking about Rue or Vine ?
If I recall, less Rue Harmalas is needed compared to Vine.

Both. Ime, if I take 200mg of purified vine alkaloids or 200mg of purified rue alkaloids, they're both extremely similar in RIMA intensity - experience wise and all. The only thing that slightly differs ime is a little more stomach upset with rue more times than not.

 

[Jees]

... if I take 200mg of purified vine alkaloids or 200mg of purified rue alkaloids, they're both extremely similar in RIMA intensity - experience wise and all...

Please what do you mean with "purified"?
Having a manske done on both?
Or having no manske done on both?
In these 2 cases I haven't really compared them, but could imagine equal potential.

I've found a mansked rue to differ from a non-mansked caapi. Especially in feel.

 

[DeltaSpice]

My next attempt will be with 300mg yellow vine Alks & 60mg spice.
I smoke vine daily so maybe I have a slight tolerance to it. Love that stuff

I know what 350 vine & 45 spice feels like, so I'll just keep upping the spice count on each attempt and eventually move onto the black vine.

I'm really, looking forward to it.

 

[chocobeastie]

I should note that I don't get much nausea and body load from teas these days. Though the taste is not that great, I think it is a very small price to pay. And often it is the purge that is considered part of the healing. I don't really purge much at all these days and often don't vomit up the tea at all.

Jees,

It is good you have done the comparison for sure.

I find the rue tea smoother myself and the extracts too sharp. To me it is the difference between chewing coca leaf and sniffing cocaine!

I find the visuals in the tea have more clarity and depth and dimensionality.

I think it is worth individuals doing the test themselves to see the differences, I reckon it took me about seven years of drinking both to *really* noticed a difference. The thing is, the experience is so strong and startling anyway!

 

[Jees]

Only tiny body load/nausea on tea? Did you notice a trend over the years and is there anything more worth saying about this process?

Visuals (well I'm not very visuals in nature to be honest): there was not more in quantity with tea so to speak, but there was difference in kind-of. With extracts like on 100 pharma (had a couple of those lately) then it's like sub-breaktrough effects. With the tea it was more in the direction of ayahuasca, though it was rue+mimo.

 

[○]

... if I take 200mg of purified vine alkaloids or 200mg of purified rue alkaloids, they're both extremely similar in RIMA intensity - experience wise and all...

Please what do you mean with "purified"?
Having a manske done on both?
Or having no manske done on both?
In these 2 cases I haven't really compared them, but could imagine equal potential.

I've found a mansked rue to differ from a non-mansked caapi. Especially in feel.

caapi alkaloids (several washes) and rue alkaloids (masnke'd) (several washes).



EDIT: Should've been a little more clear about when cleaning the manske rue alks. I just redissolved the manske alks down in hot water, re-salt the solution, put in refrigerator, precip. Ime doing this cleans them up reasonably.

 

[DeltaSpice]

I went for my third pharma attempt today, increasing the dosages from previous sessions.

Me and my friend went for 250mg Yellow vine + 60mg Spice.
I weigh 77kg my friend is heavier .

We took the Harmala caps one hour before the DMT.

This time we was on a hill , great views and sunshine.

My friend came up quickly . His face went pale and he explained that he was feeling it hard and went on to have a strong experience .

I was kind of underwhelmed , I was feeling it but nothing major.
Luckily I had some Changa zoots on me. A few tokes and it enhanced the pharma.

I have a bad back ,I'm used to it but recently things have gotten worse.
On the hillside I couldn't sit or lye down in any position without feeling pain.
Now its about 4 or 5 hours since taking the pharma my back hurts like hell.

I don't know what to make of it all at the moment.

I think 90mg spice would have given me a better experience and I probably should have stuck to the 300mg vine Alks I'd done previously instead of lowering it to 250mg.

Maybe the fact that I smoke vine daily and Changa on most days gave me some kind of a tolerance ?

I'm glad my friend had a powerful experience because he doesn't do this kind of thing often, where as I get my fill every day.

I hope next time I'll report on how I saw golden snakes talking to me etc. 8)

 

[pitubo]

Deltaspice, I'm very curious why you wait 45 minutes after ingesting harmala extract before ingesting dmt.

Did you try with shorter intervals or even no wait?

Did you come up with the idea of 45 minute wait yourself or is this prescribed in some faq somewhere? If so could you tell me where I can find it?

I've tried it with 45, 30, 15 and 0 minutes myself and my experience has been that with extracts, waiting noticeably diminishes the effectivity. Maybe when ingesting whole or ground rue seeds it would make sense to wait a bit, but even traditional ayahuasca is a combination of the two components that is ingested at once. I figure that if the amazon people had noticed that vine and admixture are better ingested separately with some waiting time in between, they would be doing so, wouldn't they?

 

[TGO]

Not too long ago, Jees and I were talking about predosing a smaller amount of harmalas in a different thread before taking your true dose of harmalas and DMT. This worked really well for me:

*Consumed 100mg freebase harmalas that were dissolved in warm lemon juice.
*Waited 1.5 hours and then consumed 225mg of freebase harmalas mixed in 5% Vinegar
*Waited 15 minutes and then took 85mg freebase DMT that was dissolved in 5% Vinegar

It was an amazing experience (you can read about it here if interested), not too overwhelming. It was just right. Just what I needed.

I have only tried this method once but I highly recommend it to anyone wanting to go the pharma route. You could adjust the amount of DMT of course. The harmalas (325mg total) seemed to be the perfect amount for me. I will be predosing myself from now on when I do pharma... Just my two cents!

8)

 

[DeltaSpice]

Why I took the DMT an hour after the Harmalas, I honestly can not tell you.
Either I read that method some where or my brain made it up :|

I gave my friend his 2 caps of Harmala to take. Half an hour later I realised that he had only taken one of them by mistake. He then took the other capsule.
That explains why he has a stronger experience than me.

The last three times i took Pharma amount to nothing. I've gained no information on dosage required.

I have to start from the beginning.

What a waiste of vine . It's not as if it grows on trees or anything.

 

[pitubo]

Thanks for answering!

What a waiste of vine . It's not as if it grows on trees or anything.

It's not entirely a waste. You learned something and you were able to provide us with some useful data points. It may eventually end a lot more waste of vine due to ineffective dosing strategies employed on the basis of hearsay.

If you can get better results with a smaller delay or an undelayed combination, could you please post about that for comparison in this thread?