Dr. Strassman on "the effects of too much spice" from a recent interview. Thoughts?

[Ayu Rem]

reading through this thread really brought tools rosetta stoned to mind. if you haven’t heard it,, it’s a track from their 2006 album 10.000 days. the whole thing is basically a chaotic monologue from someone who had a massive otherworldly/psychedelic encounter, feels chosen, thinks they’ve seen the truth of everything….. but can’t remember any of it.


it hits that exact flavor of post-dmt messianic urgency mixed with confusion and ego flare. starts out sounding profound, but kinda unravels into this frantic “i swear it meant something”-energy. wild how spot-on it is even almost 20 years later. worth a listen if you’ve ever tried to explain hyperspace to your cat.

 

[premeditated]

Oh, you mean like the tribes in South Africa that prefer 2c-b to their native plants to commune with the spirits?

Romanticize is right. The bludgeon they use it for is also uniquely colonial in its attitude and approach


With so many things, people don't even think about how deep it goes or how real it gets.

I notice some of what we're talking about by virtue of my work. I come across my fair share of individuals who love to really behave as though they are the stewards of the space after very few journeys. Many will effectively talk down to me, probably because I'll play coy sometimes until I tell them I extract.

The shit gets real. Many will realize this in due time.

One love

I always want to talk about this subject but idk how without sounding judgmental or hypocritical. Before me even knowing about dmt I've always been on my spiritual journey. I consider myself a rastafarian and have been practicing meditation yoga and doing necessary shadow work. So dmt seems like a natural progression. Anyway I've noticed some ppl that may not been on that journey have a breakthrough psychedelic experience and everything changes about them. Of course I wish that every human can transform their lives for the better. But the individuals I speak of it doesn't seem genuine. A couple experiences with anything in life should keep you humble and not think you're a master and can teach and talk down on others. I can be completely wrong but I wonder from the super negative trip reports maybe those individuals had a lot of bad traits about them. Not saying I'm perfect..I may self destruct but you can't find anyone to say I've ever done them any harm.

 

[blig-blug]

Above in this thread it was mentioned that as DMT often results in an experience less directly related to your "real life", the risk of acting out is lower. Based on my limited experience with pharmahuasca, it seems to me to be the opposite.

With other psychedelics, my insights were either personal or of an abstract, "cosmic" nature. Whereas recently with pharmahuasca I "saw" many very many specific details about spirits, souls, death and life that in that moment appeared to be a matter of fact.

I can see how easy it would be to start believing that what I saw is literally true, and the dangers of starting a cycle where each trip feeds back on the next and the beliefs are reinforced.

 

[universecannon]

Above in this thread it was mentioned that as DMT often results in an experience less directly related to your "real life", the risk of acting out is lower. Based on my limited experience with pharmahuasca, it seems to me to be the opposite.

With other psychedelics, my insights were either personal or of an abstract, "cosmic" nature. Whereas recently with pharmahuasca I "saw" many very many specific details about spirits, souls, death and life that in that moment appeared to be a matter of fact.

I can see how easy it would be to start believing that what I saw is literally true, and the dangers of starting a cycle where each trip feeds back on the next and the beliefs are reinforced.

My bad, I should've clarified that I specifically was referring to smoked DMT

 

[doubledog]

My view is that Messianic syndrome is quite common in first stage of psychedelic use, I've seen it happen after LSD, mushrooms, ayahuasca, smoked DMT.
At that phase it's better to not talk about any findings and ideas publicly, even though it is quite difficult.
One can save himself from a lot of problems, social embarassment being the least serious.
Most people do not have any external guidance and fall into this trap (and due to inflation of ego some will not follow this advice, even if they had received it).
It's not any coincidence that old traditions does not allow young followers to overshare what they have seen or experienced.

Next stages of psychedelics are much less fun. There are a lot of traps on the path and one will fall into all of them. Only difference is how quickly you can get out/through it.

 

[blig-blug]

My bad, I should've clarified that I specifically was referring to smoked DMT

But wouldn't the same apply? Or maybe the shorter duration and faster pace (so less time for reflection during the moment) reduces that "literal revealed truth" effect?

 

[universecannon]

But wouldn't the same apply? Or maybe the shorter duration and faster pace (so less time for reflection during the moment) reduces that "literal revealed truth" effect?

I'll try to clarify. It's hard to summarize such a confusing and complicated issue, that's for sure. When delusions arise during a vaped DMT experience, the person is typically not engaging much with the outside world to begin with, especially if they're flattened by a solid dose, and most importantly the experience is very brief. So the likelihood of acting on those delusions in the moment, to sometimes dangerous effect, is generally much less compared with longer-lasting psychedelics. At least, that's how it seems to me.

In some cases, like the OP mentions, people buy into these delusions even after the experience ends. Coupled with vaped DMT being so cosmic/intense/philosophical in its potential implications, this can lead these people to some strange areas pretty quickly (like preaching discovery of universal truth on the nexus). This also makes me wonder if the short duration of DMT actually makes it easier for these people to buy into their delusions even after the trip fades - it may be easier to see delusions for what they are after being stuck in them for hours on a long lasting psychedelics (plenty of time for it to turn from delusion of grandeur to paranoia too!). Or maybe it'd just be a worse result with a longer-acting psychedelic for these people...hard to say and I think it depends on the person and a lot of factors.

In the past I spent quite a bit of time in a music community where a lot of people were vaping DMT and consuming psychedelics at the show. The people acting on their delusions and getting themselves into trouble in those spaces were almost always on a longer lasting psychedelic, often mixed with other drugs. But interestingly, the few people I've met with some kind of low level psychedelic god complex or psychedelic-related delusions while sober, often start talking about their DMT experiences and basically it's revealed how dogmatic their interpretation of it is. As if they alone reached some profound truth that they are dead set on.

How this relates to aya/pharma is very interesting. I'm not sure if they are more or less likely to lead to delusions than say LSD or mushrooms. I would guess not, but there seems to be a lot of individual variation and so much depends on dose etc. I get into those states quite reliably if I smoke enough cannabis on LSD or mushrooms before the peak ends, but strangely it has never happened during any of my aya/pharma experiences.

Luckily I've learned to deal with/recognize it and not to act until the thoughts fade, even if it's extremely convincing in the moment. It seems to at least partly be a way the ego/left brain attempts to control or interpret a deep experience, and my extreme sensitivity to cannabis and psychedelics has always been a double edged sword because of this.

 

[Icon]

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Children make profoundly dumb conclusions too and we just accept it as part of the process. I think there should be space for mental exploration. I loved getting feedback on DMT from people in various professions. In the right hands, something might click. Between the perceived immensity of the experience and stories that DNA was first theorized on LSD, people assume there's knowledge to tap into.

This place used to be far more moderated. When I started using DMT, I remember a post I spent a lot of thought on was removed, because apparently there was a rule against unscientific speculations. I was just musing about the idea that consciousness could exist at an atomic level, and that even inanimate objects like rocks have a role they're actively playing in a coordinated symphony, or something like that. But it really bothered me that my thoughts were shut down instead of just being ignored or engaged with. I stopped spending time here after that.

But yea, DMT can cause confusion and people can draw conclusions that are false. When I started exploring it in 2010-2012, there was a big push of new-age propaganda revolving around the mayan calendar. And McKenna's timewave zero supposedly aligning with the calendar. I was too-seriously expecting reality to get folded into a singularity or something, and after that didn't happen I sorta gave up on psychedelics / the community. I used to think if all the world leaders got together and tripped or smoked some weed, all conflicts could be resolved. I'm much more cynical these days and don't really know what DMT could / should be used for. Aya has more potential than the freebase for sure.

Also, has anyone ever got the impression that people lie about their DMT experience? The most authentic reaction IMO is when they come down just speechless, with gratitude and bewilderment. I get suspicious when people recite detailed play-by-plays. Sometimes it seems like a fish story with how exaggerated it sounds. Or when people describe it with terms from pop-culture, like "yea I saw the machine elves". Though, I think the experience can be primed by our subconscious expectations. I believe that's what's happening with the recent popular dmt phenomenon of seeing "code" in lasers. Likely just another case of over-use. Strange how it can subdue the ego and also make it hungry for commendation.

 

[IceKoldpp]

I always want to talk about this subject but idk how without sounding judgmental or hypocritical. Before me even knowing about dmt I've always been on my spiritual journey. I consider myself a rastafarian and have been practicing meditation yoga and doing necessary shadow work. So dmt seems like a natural progression. Anyway I've noticed some ppl that may not been on that journey have a breakthrough psychedelic experience and everything changes about them. Of course I wish that every human can transform their lives for the better. But the individuals I speak of it doesn't seem genuine. A couple experiences with anything in life should keep you humble and not think you're a master and can teach and talk down on others. I can be completely wrong but I wonder from the super negative trip reports maybe those individuals had a lot of bad traits about them. Not saying I'm perfect..I may self destruct but you can't find anyone to say I've ever done them any harm.

yea, i definitely had a bit of doubt ab making a post ab it for the same reason. i didn't want to sound harsh or that this was at someone's expense. but i generally feel that as long as your bringing something up or arguing something in good faith, that'll be clear to others that are willing to engage. and if someone does take my intent the wrong way, they'll usually mention it and i'll clarify for them. i guess this just peaked my interest enough to risk it

 

[IceKoldpp]

I can see how easy it would be to start believing that what I saw is literally true, and the dangers of starting a cycle where each trip feeds back on the next and the beliefs are reinforced.

so can i. and we already have very strong urges to start connecting dots where there are no connections to manufacture meaning. could easily see that getting slippery with something as immense as strong psychedelic experiences.

 

[Icon]

pages of writing that clearly took many hours and sometimes weeks to compile. using their own improvised canon of lore and glossary of words they borrowed from other ideology's. it's interesting.. as i'm thinking ab it right now maybe it's actually the opposite of a lack of reflection. and it's actually obsessive reflection that can lead one into this state..

That reminds me of another theory I have. That the breakthrough experience is most impressive when you let it keep moving. IMO it takes a certain level of trust on top of the dosage to unlock full effects. For me, there was a moment of letting go - of fear mainly, before it blossomed. But as the experience unfolds it can be tricky to maintain a neutral state. Both fear and lust could be considered attachments, that can derail the blossoming. I think it's maybe why the peak is so difficult to remember, because we're consciously observing without any attachment. As soon as we're able and choose to reflect on something we see, it changes the flow. Kinda like pulling the lever on a slot machine to stop the reels and take a reading of the probability. Measuring that against our duality and deciding we like that or hate that, shapes the experience and afterward our perception of it. I notice when I like something I see there is some subconscious stepping off the train and being drawn toward that idea, like a micro obsession, which could seed a delusion. I haven't had too many terrifying trips but I assume it works similarly when someone gives in to fear.

 

[Sakkadelic]

very relevant topic and insightful replies.

i didn't want to sound harsh or that this was at someone's expense.

It did sound a bit harsh but you know sometimes there's no soft way of putting it and faced with the extreme nature of the topic it is maybe normal for the counter topic to be a bit rough.

I am reminded by a video segment of McKenna about UFO experiences often holding within them their own disproof, similarly these grand/eur delusions are so outrageous they're hard to believe after the experience and the feeling of "the truth" fades away. what some pointed out about McKenna's ideas ironically creating some kind of "DMT culture" is quite valid but I think considering his full message one would come out with a sense of not believing anything, or the idea of entertaining thoughts but never believing them. the dude's theory about dmt and the whole existence is that it is all made of language, can't get a more rational theory to explain the craziness of all of it.

I think that a lot of people are very prone to that kind of thoughts, even without any contact with psychedelics, just look at all the wild conspiracies people believe in when they never even experienced the thing but only heard a random person online talking about it. so this may not be unique to the psychedelic experience but rather a crossing with a segment of people. the typical religious upbringing and/or authoritarian parenting where kids are told to take things as they are and not question, they become prone to belief and anecdotes become proofs.


a couple bit off topic notes:

reading through this thread really brought tools rosetta stoned to mind.

"Goddamn, shit the bed!"
The only kind of delusion I can't shake off during a DMT trip :b

I was just musing about the idea that consciousness could exist at an atomic level

with all of my scientific and rational being/perspective I do believe in the likelihood of this, consciousness is maybe woven into the fabric of existence itself.

As soon as we're able and choose to reflect on something we see, it changes the flow. Kinda like pulling the lever on a slot machine to stop the reels and take a reading of the probability

this is a theory of consciousness by one of the most brilliant scientists out there, this video might interest you.

 

[Nydex]

View attachment 103640

This is amazing

 

[CosmicRiver]

and there seems to be a lot of kindof common tropes within them. lots of ambiguous esoteric language that you can tell seems to be extremely profound to the author but doesn't actually seem to be saying anything direct or concrete. an example of what i mean is like "the answers i always knew were there but just hadn't been shown that they were inside of me, and outside of me, and you, and all of us... together". yet they never SAY what the answer is. and alot of the time it's written in almost a medeivel narrator type of style. very proper but in a silly kind of way.

Yeah it's kind of funny but honestly that's just how it is because words can't describe such experiences. Thus everyone come up with these enigmatic and newagey quotes. Maybe sometimes people are conditioned by reading reports or books but many times it's just what psychedelic experiences come down to when described. The same thing can be said about mystical experiences in general because Buddha, Jesus, etc. all used methaphors and similes and parables because they couldn't directly describe their experiences. And they all wanted to share them with the world. It's kind of natural IMO.
The difference here as people said is that there is no prior experience to give structure and so often these people develop a "spiritual ego" at the beginning.

Rick Strassman is not immune to this anyway, you should check his latest book on his interpretation of the Bible

 

[ShadedSelf]

If you want a healthy kid, accept them for who they are, if you want a healthy adult, accept them for who they are.
Most of us are barely at our spiritual infancy, sure, dealing with someones active ego is difficult, and it might also be a measurement of how active our own is.

 

[northape]

Next stages of psychedelics are much less fun. There are a lot of traps on the path and one will fall into all of them. Only difference is how quickly you can get out/through it.

How many want to go to the next stage? People do all in their power to stay in a lovely kumbaya state.
We can add western culture to it all with its skepticism and disrespect of ancient tools / traditions.
Doing drugs at a party is very different to conducting a ceremony with a sacred medicine, even if it's the same substance.
Basically, we have a lack of maturity nowadays. There are a lot of babies in adult bodies. They lack basic awareness and pretend to practice the highest teachings.

Most of us are barely at our spiritual infancy, sure, dealing with someones active ego is difficult, and it might also be a measurement of how active our own is.

Here. This hits the nail on the head! We have very few mature souls around. And who am I to judge their maturation, too?
I can only see people in predicaments like those I faced before. Crazy times, crazy culture and lots of crazy people around.

There was an ancient town ruled by a well-loved king and queen. Into the only well — except that for the sole use of the king and queen and their prime minister — a magician throws a potion. The magician declares, “Whoever drinks the water will go mad.” Obviously, except for the king and queen and the prime minister, the whole town goes mad. They had to drink from that well, and they all went mad. Except for the king, the queen and the prime minister, they all go mad.

All the mad townspeople are gathered around the palace shouting against the king and saying, “The king has gone mad. We don’t want a mad king.”

The king asked his chief minister what to do. The minister must have been a wise man, not like politicians today, a man of insight, not elected but chosen by the wise. He said, “I will keep the crowd happy for a time. You run to the town’s well and drink deeply. Drink deeply. Get drunk on it. Then come back and all will be right.”

The king soon returns, but entering through the front door naked, singing, dancing… singing songs of ecstasy he dances with the crowd. The king’s dance convinces the crowd of his sanity. They declare him sane. They recrown him. They rejoice. They celebrate his return to sanity.

 

[northape]

The same thing can be said about mystical experiences in general because Buddha, Jesus, etc. all used methaphors and similes and parables because they couldn't directly describe their experiences. And they all wanted to share them with the world. It's kind of natural IMO.

I suspect that they didn't want anything. There is nobody home in those people, in my opinion.
With no agendas, only love remains — big, unconditional love for creation.
However, we want to capture this love for ourselves. We think that somebody is home and they have this love.
That's why we hold these people hostage, close to ourselves. We see them as objects to own.
The idea that maybe only love is there never crosses our mind, because it's not about the mind.
It's on a whole other level. It's all about the Heart and letting go of ourselves.
A true teacher is akin to a mind-poison. He kills us slowly until only Love remains.
Only then are we truly one with him and with God and with all of creation.

 

[IceKoldpp]

That reminds me of another theory I have. That the breakthrough experience is most impressive when you let it keep moving. IMO it takes a certain level of trust on top of the dosage to unlock full effects. For me, there was a moment of letting go - of fear mainly, before it blossomed. But as the experience unfolds it can be tricky to maintain a neutral state. Both fear and lust could be considered attachments, that can derail the blossoming. I think it's maybe why the peak is so difficult to remember, because we're consciously observing without any attachment. As soon as we're able and choose to reflect on something we see, it changes the flow. Kinda like pulling the lever on a slot machine to stop the reels and take a reading of the probability. Measuring that against our duality and deciding we like that or hate that, shapes the experience and afterward our perception of it. I notice when I like something I see there is some subconscious stepping off the train and being drawn toward that idea, like a micro obsession, which could seed a delusion. I haven't had too many terrifying trips but I assume it works similarly when someone gives in to fear.

dude. both of your responses have been very interesting to read. this specifically i totally agree with. i had a few really scary trips a few mos ago and they've effected most of the subsequent trips negatively bc of that residual subconcious fear. as i feel the come up really start to surge i'll have this "please don't let this one be scary" almost kindof bargaining with the dmt to be nice to me like it use to be and i'll get stuck there. missing the blossoming as you call it. i can still have some somewhat strong waiting room experiences but i haven't been able to bt since. i've been working on relearning that whole dmt 101 practice of completely surrendering and letting go without resistance but i'm at the point where i think it's just gonna be a time thing. i'm currently taking a break while i wait on more bark to arrive. for my first 40-50 trips where they were all the most archetypal dmt brain candy experiences imaginable it was so easy to surrender. then you get slapped really really hard and surrendering isn't so easy..

 

[Icon]

That's cool, I'm working on an extraction now after years on break. I had a lot of work to do in my personal life and still do. It's maybe easier to let go the first times cuz we're so naive. After some humbling experiences, perspective, and responsibilities accumulating on the back burner, it's probably natural to go back to chopping wood n carrying water. When the right time comes and I can let go fully, I know it'll be rewarding. I'm getting prepared but it's discussions like these that really get me excited to make that handshake again. Enjoy your process!

 

[yatyas314]

I am relatively new to DMT, 3 yers or so and I have smoked a ton. I have never felt Messianic in fact as of late I feel so vulnerable and sad yet keep coming back to it. I get the calling once a week at least and maybe once a month taken with harmaline for a good knock your socks off experience. Maybe I would describe my after glow as humbled.
Y