Quaternary alkaloids have four carbon bonds joined to a positively charged nitrogen. The nitrogen retains its positive charge even when the counter-ion is replaced with hydroxide as there is no N-proton to be removed.
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TEK Ethyl acetate approach [CIELO]
- Thread starter Loveall
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bodhidharma
Rising Star
Without fridge rest? As in,should work with EA at what temp for pulls and xtalization?
If not, should work with EA in which temprature?
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Can mescaline be found in that form? DMT and 5-meo were both found in that form which I don’t understand. They also used a different technique to salt
Paper is unrelated to Cielo but related to possible different forms? There they extracted the “water soluble base alkaloids” which I think is the same as quaternary alkaloids no? Made that jump based on term used to precipitate. “reineckates”
Other papers also show higher extraction of alkaloids using citric acid and was wondering if the 3 pka had anything to do with it.
I mean if it works it works. Had interesting results with caapi precipitating with Citric acid… I’ll play around with mescaline citrate some more. Any more informed insight would be welcome.
No, mescaline only has the one, single carbon-nitrogen bond. Mescaline cations form through protonation at nitrogen. Methylation leads to different molecules - N-methylmescaline, trichocerine and the N-methyltrichocerine quaternary cation. Both N-methylmescaline and trichocerine may (also) be protonated - reversibly - to form cations, but only the N,N,N-trimethylmescalinium [N-methyltrichocerinium, N-methyltrichocerine quaternary cation] counts as a quaternary ammonium compound.
- mescaline is a primary amine
- N-methylmescaline is a secondary amine
- trichocerine is a tertiary amine
Reinecke's salt - Wikipedia
Hm, "water soluble base" is a bit vague, on reading the paper we see:
"Weak" does rather imply that these weren't the quaternary ammonium compounds, which form strong hydroxide bases due to the lack of a labile proton.
[As you may also be aware, Desmodium triflorum, as per the paper which you attached, has since been renamed Grona triflora]
Grona triflora - Wikipedia
bodhidharma
Rising Star
Another question that came to my mind is this.
Beautiful writing and experiment, truly.
But if M.citrate needs water to form, wouldnt the ammount of water be differnt using every cactus?
Maybe fumarate will solve this.
This made me think that cielo, although people make genuine mistakes with it, is quite individualistic, in a beautiful way tho, if u learn all the principles, no reason it shouldnt be amazing
Beautiful writing and experiment, truly.
But if M.citrate needs water to form, wouldnt the ammount of water be differnt using every cactus?
Maybe fumarate will solve this.
This made me think that cielo, although people make genuine mistakes with it, is quite individualistic, in a beautiful way tho, if u learn all the principles, no reason it shouldnt be amazing
Interesting - this thread doesn't show up on the forum search here on the new forum. Here it is, though:Another question that came to my mind is this.
Beautiful writing and experiment, truly.
But if M.citrate needs water to form, wouldnt the ammount of water be differnt using every cactus?
Maybe fumarate will solve this.
This made me think that cielo, although people make genuine mistakes with it, is quite individualistic, in a beautiful way tho, if u learn all the principles, no reason it shouldnt be amazing
CIELO product(s) Analysis
1.) CIELO crystal formation vs. water content Here is just a small test to check what is the influence of the water content on the crystal formation. Loveall and coworkers found a nice sweet spot at around 2,3 wt-% of water, which should be the fridge-level equilibrium of water miscibility with...
forum.dmt-nexus.me
Could you explain you reasoning about the water content a little more? Why would different cacti require different amounts of water? Do you mean wrt the differing concentrations of mescaline across various specimens?
bodhidharma
Rising Star
IndeedInteresting - this thread doesn't show up on the forum search here on the new forum. Here it is, though:
CIELO product(s) Analysis
1.) CIELO crystal formation vs. water content Here is just a small test to check what is the influence of the water content on the crystal formation. Loveall and coworkers found a nice sweet spot at around 2,3 wt-% of water, which should be the fridge-level equilibrium of water miscibility with...
Could you explain you reasoning about the water content a little more? Why would different cacti require different amounts of water? Do you mean wrt the differing concentrations of mescaline across various specimens?
So, the differing concentrations of mescaline across various specimens, affecting the amount of dissolved water required? I think some calculations were done regarding this, somewhere far earlier in this monster of a thread. Maybe around pages 12 to 15, I could be wrong and I'm not looking through it all tonight!
PsillyWolf
Rising Star
This strange result on a final extraction (after pH neutralization, Acetyl Acetate recovery) with a gray / silver citrate formation. Prior two runs gave white crystals. There was an issue during the first run where an aluminum vessel was used during ethyl acetate extraction (before filtering plant material and adding citric acid) that resulted in lack of 'clouding' after the citric acid was added and no preciptate formed. Subsequent to that I ended up adding a bit more lime, and citrate precipitation did occur (white crystals did form and were filtered out).
That EA and the ethyl acetate from the non-aluminum batch were used during this final batch (after pH neutralization). There was also a brief filtering over activated charcoal but that didnt seem to do anything for removing excess chlorphyll other than create some sort of smoke/vapor crackling sound lol.
Everything appeared normal during the crystalization phase after precipitation (pic from the 'gray' batch).
Reagent tests looked identical to the white batch. Should one be concerned with this result? The 'only' difference between batches was filtering neutralized ethyl acetate over the activated charcoal.
How likely is this gray color due to aluminum? Or is it likely just activated charcoal? Any way to further filter the contamination? Further fresh EA washes did not change the color.
In the end Bobs Cielo Calculator was used, using 10% more than the minimum water resulting in a ~1% yield. First post here - sorry if this is the wrong spot.
That EA and the ethyl acetate from the non-aluminum batch were used during this final batch (after pH neutralization). There was also a brief filtering over activated charcoal but that didnt seem to do anything for removing excess chlorphyll other than create some sort of smoke/vapor crackling sound lol.
Everything appeared normal during the crystalization phase after precipitation (pic from the 'gray' batch).
Reagent tests looked identical to the white batch. Should one be concerned with this result? The 'only' difference between batches was filtering neutralized ethyl acetate over the activated charcoal.
How likely is this gray color due to aluminum? Or is it likely just activated charcoal? Any way to further filter the contamination? Further fresh EA washes did not change the color.
In the end Bobs Cielo Calculator was used, using 10% more than the minimum water resulting in a ~1% yield. First post here - sorry if this is the wrong spot.
It's charcoal, you have to filter through a bed of diatomaceous earth/Celite to get rid of the tiny particles. Dissolve the crystals in a solvent of your choice and run through the filter layer. You may want to put a layer of sand on top of the filter bed so it doesn't get stirred up. It would be better to have proper filter papers as well, since coffee filters are too porous.
If that's too much hassle, the carbon won't do you any harm and looks like a small enough amount not to throw off the dosing by any significant amount. It depends on your degree of dedication to white sparkliness
PsillyWolf
Rising Star
Thanks for that suggestion. What solvent would disolve mesc citrate? Since obviously EA doesn't lol. Would RO water work?It's charcoal, you have to filter through a bed of diatomaceous earth/Celite to get rid of the tiny particles. Dissolve the crystals in a solvent of your choice and run through the filter layer. You may want to put a layer of sand on top of the filter bed so it doesn't get stirred up. It would be better to have proper filter papers as well, since coffee filters are too porous.
If that's too much hassle, the carbon won't do you any harm and looks like a small enough amount not to throw off the dosing by any significant amount. It depends on your degree of dedication to white sparkliness
Yes it (RO) would. Boiling IPA has also been used for re-x but hot filtering can be something of a pain.
Jahvisions
Esteemed member
Maybe a bit off topic (which is my speciality it seems ;-)
@ _TRIP_did I read it right(in this topic, couldn't find it quickly, so many posts) you have a Bridgesii, which is particular dark green and slender which contains 8% mescaline? That would be the strongest cactus in the world, even surpassing TBM B measured at 6,3%.
Would like to see a picture of that cactus
Is it a fast grower, does it makes pups easily. You should craft it on pereskiopsis and share it with the world, because it would be criminal to keep this for yourself haha, kidding.
@ _TRIP_did I read it right(in this topic, couldn't find it quickly, so many posts) you have a Bridgesii, which is particular dark green and slender which contains 8% mescaline? That would be the strongest cactus in the world, even surpassing TBM B measured at 6,3%.
Would like to see a picture of that cactus
Is it a fast grower, does it makes pups easily. You should craft it on pereskiopsis and share it with the world, because it would be criminal to keep this for yourself haha, kidding.
It was 8% mesc citrate yh, but that was dried green layer only. I have a bridgesii clone "Elieen" which is well known that hit 9% mesc citrate (dried green layer only- 5.5% hcl equiv). I have a couple other clones over 7%. I don't think it's uncommon to get the old potent clone here and there.
Unsure if there's different Elieen clones around the world or if they are the same clone.
There may be some seasonal or processing variations, a bridgesii I had that tested at 2.4% (green dried layer only), I recently retested at 2.4% but with whole dried cacti a few months ago. Which would indicate either a processing issue or a seasonal change.
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Holy heck - it's Jahvisions! Nice to see you resurface hereMaybe a bit off topic (which is my speciality it seems ;-)
@ _TRIP_did I read it right(in this topic, couldn't find it quickly, so many posts) you have a Bridgesii, which is particular dark green and slender which contains 8% mescaline? That would be the strongest cactus in the world, even surpassing TBM B measured at 6,3%.
Would like to see a picture of that cactus
Is it a fast grower, does it makes pups easily. You should craft it on pereskiopsis and share it with the world, because it would be criminal to keep this for yourself haha, kidding.
Jahvisions
Esteemed member
Hi,Holy heck - it's Jahvisions! Nice to see you resurface here
Ah @_TRIP_the Citrate, that explains, now understand. Eileen is a famous strong clone, but not easy to get your hands on I read a while ago (or you will have to pay serious money). Beautfull plant though.
@Traqnsform, I was never gone, but glad you missed me ;-) (did some reading on Bluelight and Erowid about the research Lysergamides) sometimes more busy then other times. Sometimes Often only reading instead of posting but indeed it's been an while since the last time I logged in. But the passion remains, and actually keep working on my hobby now.
- I had a succesfull A/B extraction of NN-DMT a while ago, from a plant we don't advise anymore (hopefully the last time I needed that source, although they claim the leave the tree alive and is sort of eco-friendly only skin only one one side).
- I have bought 5 Psychotria clones in the summer: 3 Nexus, 1 UDV and 1 DW06 (two Nexus clones already came in a bad condition, one especially maybe partly my fault because I let them at the post office for almost a week. Later the third Nexus clone also died. The UDV and DW06, didn't grow much but do look healthy (The are now overwintering inside in pots, so we will see next summer). I contacted the seller and he said I would get a discount with my next order. When I brought them inside I discovered a heavy infection with fungus gnats, but I got rid of it with two treatments with nematodes which worked very effectively.
Further I did a micro-potency testing with my cacti, and the TLC showed promising results on the TBM B, a unnamed bridgesii, a Pachanoi, and also a smaller Peruvian from matacuna which grows pretty fast. No or little results on the Scopulicola and unknown yet which one where pachanoi's and one peruvianus but they where all young and small). Only the the eppendorf from the peruvianus got open during the pressure cooker so that one I couldn't estimate. The amount of cactus used and solvent weren't precise so I coulnd't do a quantitive measurement but it gave me a good indication. (buying younger plants is cheaper but then people need some patience before you have enough adult material. In my opinion you can better buy some bigger old plants, but then of course you have the risk if paying to much if the plant turns out to be of low potency).
I am doing an extraction on them now as we speak (except the TBM's, I first let them develop some more). So I am doing an extraction on a Pachanoi(s), Peruvianusis(what is the plural?), Bridgesii's, a Macrogonus and a combined extraction of different smaller species (since I had to make room, and wanted to selected the most potent ones/best producers (for instance the macrogonus is maybe twice as less potent but it outgrows any other cactus. The 1 Peruvianus and 1 Pachanoi I got at the same time when they were still young and small but the Peruvianus made pups far more easy and I have 5 times more plants of the now. So I can't wait to see the results and also if and how good they recover this summer and start new growth. (Then I can finally make a selection on which ones to keep and also maybe start grafting.
My pereskliopsis are also multiplying well but never used them for grafting.
I once tried grafting a young peruvianus clone on the macrogonus but the graft got rejected by the host or was infected and it started to rot and fell of. The infected part on the macrogonus was cut off and then treated with sulfur which stopped the infection.
I did tried to extract and separate harmine (and THH) from harmaline but it was only from a test sample of banisteriopsis caapi, but it was only from a little free sample so that got messy and was too little so that failed.
Furthermore I bought some new solvents so to have more "tools" at hand and maybe try different extraction methods, ways to clean up/wash and recrystallize. And also planning to buy some new apparatus. For instance I have little difficulty evaportaing of the water with a fan now it's near freezing point here outside. A real vacuumpump and/or a rotary-evaporator and a hotplate with magnatic stirrer would have come in handy now. (I some relatively cheap ones from second hand or at ali express.
I also have an extraction question about the one I now preform on my cacti but I will make a new thread for that question.
(But as you can see, I am still a busy psychonaut, probably for the rest of my life ;-), although it has been quite a while since I took a serious jouney myself because I was not ready at that moment and had to solve some issues with/about myself, my life, my work, my family. All things worked out pretty well (was close to a burn-out and started using the wrong kind of drugs also, but have either stopped and/or reduced this quite a bit and tapering of still. And I am feeling more happy and peacefull now then I felt in the last 3 years) and I think in short time from now, at the right moment, I will have another yourney soon again.
Greetings David (Jahvisions)
Does anyone have experience utilizing CIELO for resin extraction? I had some cut cacti that I turned into resin for storage, but I'd like to extract the resin to quantify what was in each of them.
I searched through this thread, and I didn't find anyone that was successful utilizing CIELO for resin. The resin can be grinded into a powder with enough drying, but I'm not sure whether it will keep a powdered consistency when basifying it. As soon as it gets any moisture it gums up completely. I'd prefer to utilize CIELO over a standard A/B. Ethyl acetate is much more appealing to work with than xylene or toluene.
It may be a while before I can try this. If I go ahead with trying CIELO with resin, I'll make sure to update with how it worked out. I recorded the starting weights of all of the cacti when I made the resin a long time ago.
I searched through this thread, and I didn't find anyone that was successful utilizing CIELO for resin. The resin can be grinded into a powder with enough drying, but I'm not sure whether it will keep a powdered consistency when basifying it. As soon as it gets any moisture it gums up completely. I'd prefer to utilize CIELO over a standard A/B. Ethyl acetate is much more appealing to work with than xylene or toluene.
It may be a while before I can try this. If I go ahead with trying CIELO with resin, I'll make sure to update with how it worked out. I recorded the starting weights of all of the cacti when I made the resin a long time ago.
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Jahvisions
Esteemed member
No experience myself yet with CIELO. I actually went back from STB to A/B. My first and only A/B was a mess because of the slime and the filtering, but a good pressure cooking seems to solve a the filtering problems due to slime, because 5 or more different cacti didn't gave any slime at all (2x 1 hour cooking in a pressure pan.
I both have Xylene and Toluene, although not ecofriendly, if you use gloves, a mask and you do it outside, or in a well ventilated barn, both with a mask(of course not inside your house/home I don't think you have to be afraid of health issues). I prefer toluene over xylene, although toluene evaporates more easily, xylene stinks more. Also I have a feeling that toluene is more effective in extracting the goods and extracts less junk but that is my subjective feeling and not based on facts by direct comparison.
That not answers your question but I wanted to share my knowledge/experience/opinion about the use of toluene/xylene and how pressure cooking solves the problem of filtering by breaking the slime.
I both have Xylene and Toluene, although not ecofriendly, if you use gloves, a mask and you do it outside, or in a well ventilated barn, both with a mask(of course not inside your house/home I don't think you have to be afraid of health issues). I prefer toluene over xylene, although toluene evaporates more easily, xylene stinks more. Also I have a feeling that toluene is more effective in extracting the goods and extracts less junk but that is my subjective feeling and not based on facts by direct comparison.
That not answers your question but I wanted to share my knowledge/experience/opinion about the use of toluene/xylene and how pressure cooking solves the problem of filtering by breaking the slime.
@Jahvisions I use xylene and since I can keep everything in closed containers most of the time the smell is minimal. I don't wear gloves or anything but am careful to not spill it. I may try toluene in the future since easy to 'separate' from paint thinner just using water washes. My xylene is awesome that I've used it lots and can reuse many times without losing solvent. Ethyl acetate I've lost quite a lot and not being readily available makes xylene a better option for me. Personally I've come to really like xylene over other solvents but want to move away to just water and alcohol.
@Artemisia you can add lime to your resin and mix well adding minimal water to make sure well mixed. You can then pull with EtOAc mixing well and doing a full pulls. No french press. Depending on the amount of water added you will need to freeze to remove excess water. You can do a batch extraction with a portion to see if after salting with Citric acid there is appropriate amount of water. Personally I've only had success 'drying' with salt brine but I don't have appropriate sealable glass.
@Artemisia you can add lime to your resin and mix well adding minimal water to make sure well mixed. You can then pull with EtOAc mixing well and doing a full pulls. No french press. Depending on the amount of water added you will need to freeze to remove excess water. You can do a batch extraction with a portion to see if after salting with Citric acid there is appropriate amount of water. Personally I've only had success 'drying' with salt brine but I don't have appropriate sealable glass.
Hey all I'm hoping someone can help me out of my mistake ,,,,,,,so hear we go went through the whole thing,did the fridge rest 48h added soda ash filtered out make sure no emotion or water is present then I added my citric acid( only my calculations were not good ,I ran 350g brigesi so I times the measures for 3:5 times all good except I think because I only got left with a bit over a lt of ethyl ,,,I probly only needed to put the 5g citric but I didn't think of that until just this morning, so I added like14g citric clouded yellow,looks awesome, only in the morning to find the citric acid looks like it melted in the bottom of container creating a liquid layer below instead of crystals ,,,,,) what should I do I'm thinking collect acid layer, basify fresh ethyl and salt again????