Ethyl Acetate Cactus attempt

[MtHighlands]

TLDR, tried Ethyl acetate mescaline extraction tek, need help with crystallization, and filtering. Apologies for posting here instead of source thread, I’m still in the waiting room.

Update, just got promoted so I can post on the main thread now. If my follow up attempts succeed, I’ll close this thread and post summary on the main thread

I had several San Pedro cuttings to experiment with recently. I’ve never really felt like doing mescaline extraction before, it always appeared overly time consuming and complicated, when basic tea works just fine, right? I mean who doesn’t love vomiting rainbows? Still, I’m curious, what other methods may be available that don’t induce a certain type of self-loathing nausea.

I was planning on trying one of the Ethanol/IPA teks until read through all the recent Cactus posts and found the Ethyl acetate approach. This has everything I was looking for: over the counter ingredients, very few steps, and quick turn around.

I’ve been following this forum post for some time and it’s been really fun to see results come in day by day. Thanks Loveall, shroombee and others who put a lot of effort in to hash it all out.

I need a little help with problems I’ve encountered, if anyone has ideas. Here is what I tried

Initial material
* Despined, de-skinned, and dehydrated several feet of Pachanoi
* 130g dried powder (split in two at 65g)

Paste
* Scaled down from initial tek so I can do multiple attempts
* 65 g dry cactus powder
* 195g ice water
* 16.25g lime
* Mixed in chilled French press

Pulls:
* 7 pulls with ~5F chilled EthylAcetate
* Each time covering cactus, and stirring 60s
* Collected a total of 329g green juice

Difficulties with filtering:
I did have some problems when filtering each pull. I’m new at this so I’m guessing there are standard methods that I’m not familiar with. The tek calls for filtering with a French press. In my case the filter/plunger wouldn’t go down all the way, and wouldn’t compact as it does with coffee. The cactus seemed to have strong resistance.

After the French press I filtered the pull through a tight metal coffee filter. When I was done the collection jar still had some sediment so I filtered, once again, but this time through a regular coffee filter atop the metal filter. This seem to remove all the gunk and I was left with a clear glowing green jar of Hulk juice

Crystallization
Added 2grams of citric acid to the 329g Hulk juice (6mg/g, slightly above the recommend 5mg/g). Shook the jar for a few seconds, and it all dissolved, easily, no clouds.

After 11 hours there no signs of crystallization. Should I dose it with more citric acid? Maybe up to 10mg/g? Or is it to late? Perhaps my cuttings were low in actives.

After letting my used paste settle in a jar over night it appears there is still more solvent that I might be able to decant out. Again the French press didn’t seem to work so great for me. Any suggestions here? In the forum Loveall seemed to screw a coffee filter on to the jar with a ring. Maybe if I do that and hold it upside down I can pull the last bit of solvent.

 

[Tony6Strings]

Hi, and welcome!! I haven't performed this tek yet.. Looking forward to it though.. What I will recommend in general is to learn extraction by starting with material that you already know to be potent in alkaloids.

 

[MtHighlands]

Hi, and welcome!! I haven't performed this tek yet.. Looking forward to it though.. What I will recommend in general is to learn extraction by starting with material that you already know to be potent in alkaloids.

Hi Tony, I’ve made tea from this clone several times, it’s not the strongest, but it works. That being said, I suppose certain cuttings could be less active. I have some Bridgesii too, so debating what to do with it

 

[MtHighlands]

Still nothing after 14 hours. Added another 3g or so of citric acid and shook the jar. This should put it up to 15mg/g citric acid. Let’s see what happens.

 

[shroombee]

I had several San Pedro cuttings to experiment with recently. I’ve never really felt like doing mescaline extraction before, it always appeared overly time consuming and complicated, when basic tea works just fine, right? I mean who doesn’t love vomiting rainbows?

A friend of mine just came back from an Ayahuasca retreat. One of her purge sessions was the perception of vomiting dick worms. So consider yourself lucky that you vomit rainbows. :lol:

Pulls:
* 7 pulls with ~5F chilled EthylAcetate
* Each time covering cactus, and stirring 60s
* Collected a total of 329g green juice

329 grams solvent recovery seems low. How much ethyl acetate are you adding per pull? With 50 grams powdered cactus I'm adding and recovering about 100 grams solvent per pull (except the first where I add 150 grams solvent and recover about 115 grams).

I did have some problems when filtering each pull. I’m new at this so I’m guessing there are standard methods that I’m not familiar with. The tek calls for filtering with a French press. In my case the filter/plunger wouldn’t go down all the way, and wouldn’t compact as it does with coffee. The cactus seemed to have strong resistance.

You won't be able to compress the cactus, that's typical with these teks. After using a little pressure on the cactus with the plunger to recover most of the loose solvent, you can add mild pressure to squeeze out another 10-15 grams (assuming 100 grams added for the pull to 50 grams cactus). Mild pressure is what you could probably add using mostly your fingers and a little hand support to create the pressure. There is no need to put any muscle into it. That won't help your yields or success in getting xtals. In fact, we believe high pressure might inject water and other plant matter into the solvent and thus cause problems later in the process.

Also, after adding solvent, mix gently for 30 seconds if you're doing warm 3 minute pulls. Loveall is working with short, chilled pulls, in which case he's aggressively stirring for a 1 minute pull.

When I was done the collection jar still had some sediment so I filtered, once again, but this time through a regular coffee filter atop the metal filter.

Sediment might be an indication that you're pressing too hard. Good that you filtered through the regular coffee filter to clean up the green extract.

Added 2grams of citric acid to the 329g Hulk juice (6mg/g, slightly above the recommend 5mg/g). Shook the jar for a few seconds, and it all dissolved, easily, no clouds.

No clouds means something is amiss. You should get a small cloud with even a pinch of citric. With the full amount (5-20 mg/gram), the entire extract will turn cloudy after mixing, so that you can no longer see through it.

After letting my used paste settle in a jar over night it appears there is still more solvent that I might be able to decant out. Again the French press didn’t seem to work so great for me. Any suggestions here?

This small amount of solvent is negligible. Let it go. Furthermore, after about 30 minutes contact with ethyl acetate, we believe undesirable reactions occur with the cactus, and we don't want to use extract from this solvent/cactus mixture. This is why the tek recommends several short pulls.

Still nothing after 14 hours. Added another 3g or so of citric acid and shook the jar. This should put it up to 15mg/g citric acid. Let’s see what happens.

Did you get clouds?

 

[MtHighlands]

friend of mine just came back from an Ayahuasca retreat. One of her purge sessions was the perception of vomiting dick worms. Sick So consider yourself lucky that you vomit rainbows. Laughing

Yeah dick worms would be intense. Hey at least they were coming out and not other way around. Hahah

329 grams solvent recovery seems low. How much ethyl acetate are you adding per pull? With 50 grams powdered cactus I'm adding and recovering about 100 grams solvent per pull (except the first where I add 150 grams solvent and recover about 115 grams)

Agreed. Seems like I should have had more. I wasn’t really weighing it on each pull. Just added enough to cover the paste. I think I started with like 1/2 to 3/4 of a quart jar and used that all up. I was putting extra pressure on the French press because it seemed like it wasn’t dumping as much solvent. I’ll go lighter on it next time.

Also, after adding solvent, mix gently for 30 seconds if you're doing warm 3 minute pulls. Loveall is working with short, chilled pulls, in which case he's aggressively stirring for a 1 minute pull.

I started with freezer chilled 0-10F ethyl acetate. Stirring 1 min each

Did you get clouds?

This is hard for me to qualify, as I’m in experienced. After adding the extra 3g it was cloudy for a bit, but after shaking it dissolved easy enough. It seems to have a slight more Pedro color to it today. Last night it took on the Hulk color in the image.


Shroombee, how long should one base for? I did about three minutes while hand stirring is that long enough? Do you think it would be worth it to try room temperature pulls? Did you crystalize at room temperature?

 

[shroombee]

Did you get clouds?

This is hard for me to qualify, as I’m inexperienced. After adding the extra 3g it was cloudy for a bit, but after shaking it dissolved easy enough. It seems to have a slight more Pedro color to it today. Last night it took on the Hulk color in the image.

Clouds are good. But for me it takes about 3 minutes with aggressive magnetic stirring for all the cloudiness to disappear, replaced by nice snowy xtals. I don't know what to say about your observation of clouds that clear quickly. Maybe not enough basing time or low yielding cactus? That is just a guess.

Shroombee, how long should one base for? I did about three minutes while hand stirring is that long enough? Do you think it would be worth it to try room temperature pulls? Did you crystalize at room temperature?

Here is my mixing and basing procedure: Make milky water by adding lime to water. Mix so there are no lumps of lime. Gradually add the cactus powder, stirring thoroughly to ensure the cactus is well integrated into the milky water. It takes me 8 minutes to gradually integrate the cactus into the milky water. The last 25% of the cactus powder volume will be easiest to integrate by a combination of stirring and mashing. Let sit for 15 minutes, then begin pulling with ethyl acetate. Sitting longer than 15 minutes makes no difference.

So my total basing time is 8+15 = 23 minutes. I haven't tested less than this, so I don't have data on whether 3 minutes while hand stirring is long enough. Based on similar teks, I wouldn't think that 3 minutes is enough time. See my post on the topic of basing times here.

As of now, I've only done room temperature runs and I'm very happy with the results. Hopefully I can find the time to run chilled tests soon. Loveall is conjecturing that the chilled procedure might be more robust than room temperature for difficult cactus. I don't have experience with that because my room temperature runs have worked so well. And I don't think anyone else has given us a report that chilling improves xtalization by comparing the same cactus in a chilled versus warm comparision.

My extracts are a beautiful deep emerald green and they xtalize fine with quite high yield (1.6%). I'll post photos later.

 

[MtHighlands]

Based on your base times, I probably screwed that part up.

Thanks for the specifics. The detail is helpful. What type of container do you use to mix the paste? I wonder if a mixing machine would work well or if that’s over kill.

How would describe the consistency of your paste when it was ready?

I have 65g cactus powder, if I scale down the tek, that would be around 195g of water, and 16g lime. That sound about right? Or more lime?

Sorry for all the questions. Trying to fill in the details

 

[shroombee]

Based on your base times, I probably screwed that part up.

Thanks for the specifics. The detail is helpful. What type of container do you use to mix the paste? I wonder if a mixing machine would work well or if that’s over kill.

How would describe the consistency of your paste when it was ready?

I have 65g cactus powder, if I scale down the tek, that would be around 195g of water, and 16g lime. That sound about right? Or more lime?

I mix the paste in an enameled bowl. Stainless steel or even plastic would probably be fine. But don't use plastic for the pulls. Mixing machine is overkill. It's easy to mix the paste by hand. It's like baking a cake. I use a flexible silicone spoon which helps when stirring/mashing as the paste gets drier with the final amount of cactus powder added.

Check out this post for photos of how the paste looks after mixing. During mixing (as cactus powder is being slowly added), the paste goes from green powdery liquid to the final state shown in the photos.

For 65 grams cactus powder, 195g of water and 16g of lime is correct.

Sorry for all the questions. Trying to fill in the details

No worries. That's what we're here for.

 

[MtHighlands]

Weird. Your paste seems much drier than what I ended up with. I wonder if the mixing time contributed to that at all. I also started with super cold water

 

[shroombee]

Weird. Your paste seems much drier than what I ended up with. I wonder if the mixing time contributed to that at all. I also started with super cold water

Lime is relatively insoluble in water. I wonder if very cold water exacerbates the issue and causes problems freebasing the mescaline? Then combined with your short basing time, perhaps you didn't freebase much (if any) mescaline before you began your pulls?

Edit: Assuming the above is true and your cactus has a decent amount of mescaline which is still present in the paste... You *might* be able to dry the cactus (let the ethyl acetate evaporate), add water, remix, then try pulling again?

 

[merkin]

Pardon me butting in here - but just want to say thanks for all the details shroombee. I think the initial paste mixture and leaving it for around 15min at least is one area I can definitely improve. I think I am going to try your method the next time, and then maybe Loveall's microwave prep portion. I think the cold water and solvent might be making me become a bit too hasty.

Also I am getting pretty much zero solvent recovery on the first pull so I am not sure why yet.

I think while my icaro powder may be old, it definitely has the magic ingredients necessary (esp since it came direct from Peru) and the problem lies more in myself and my tek skills. As someone completely unversed and uneducated in chemistry (other than via nexus, youtube and rest of internet) I need all the subtle details I can get.

I know he got a bit pissed off here but I enjoyed Gordotek's videos mainly for the details watching the entire process can subtly deliver. Its like a masterclass with someone good - so much can be learned from seeing it all, and folks who are expert often unknowingly leave out small details that make the world of difference to the less exerienced.

I would so enjoy a Loveall video like that - I think every 'tek' should have one Also would love one from blue.magic on the Rue/VDS/THH subject as well. And maybe Elrik too. Maybe the next level for nexus? Not sure who the 'spice-meister' masterclass video maker would be...?

Hmmmm....anyway, thanks again, and now, back to cactus prep!

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Lime is relatively insoluble in water. I wonder if very cold water exacerbates the issue

No, lime has a retrograde solubility curve - the warmer the water, the less of it dissolves! So it won't be a solubility problem with calcium hydroxide, it'll most likely be a rate of reaction/diffusion problem for penetrating cell walls, maybe combined with lower solubility of the mescaline salts.

Also I am getting pretty much zero solvent recovery on the first pull so I am not sure why yet.

Your cactus material might be particularly absorbent for some reason. Perhaps it contains a lot of waxy material from the skin, for example. You may have to accept this is a loss and do an extra pull to make up for it.

 

[Loveall]

MtHighlands, I would do more pulls at room temperature.

One trick we used at the beginning is testing the ethyl acetate with pH strips. If they turn green it is a sign of mescaline being extracted. Once the paste is spent they don't change colors with more pulls. You can check your warm pulls, see what happens. Your paste will have likely congealed by now, when that happens about 1/3 of the mescaline is trapped, but you can still pickup the rest.

I agree with everything else DWFZ and shroombee have said. Perhaps 3 minutes is not enough to prepare the paste. I've update the TEK with more details on how to make the paste.

The cold/chilled process is to grow the long beautiful xtals. If people keep on having issues with it we may have to reconsider giving that up and going back to room temp.

 

[MtHighlands]

All great comments, thank you all so much.

I have 65g left of new cactus powder so I might start over with that. How does this sound for subsequent attemp, using shroombee basing technique :

- room temperature water+lime, cactus -> paste
- hand mix paste 8 min in mixing bowl
- rest paste 15 min
- cover with room temperature ethyl acetate (100g)
- stir for 60s
- filter with French press, compact only lightly
- secondary filter in to collection jar, using fine metal coffee filter, and paper coffee filter

Question on mixing the solvent, do you do this in the French press glass wear or would it be better do do this in a mixing bowl or pie plate? It would be easiest and quickest to do in the French press, but does the paste have enough surface area exposed to the solvent? Might be a little more hassle to use a separate container in between each pull.

Another option, since I had to secondary filter anyway: ditch the French press, and mix everything in a bowl or pie plate, then decant and filter into the metal/paper filter basket combo. I’m probably overthinking it, but curious on your thoughts. The affinity for this tek is, is in part, the simplicity so it’s great to maintain that, where possible.

 

[MtHighlands]

I certainly like the idea of of reclaiming the material from attempt #1. I’ve been growing these guys for a few years, they provided much beauty while they were here. My Brazilian landscaper knew what they were and was curious if I had used them. So they have been a great ice breaker on the topics of entheogens. He even invited me to a local Ayahuasca ceremony.

Assuming, #2 pans out. What is the best way to reclaim the paste. a) dry in Pyrex plate , next to a fan or outdoors in the breeze. b) dehydrator on a low temperature. Seems like b) might be a little unsafe . After this would the paste require additional water and lime for basting?

As far as Hulk Juice with 15mg\g solvent, I assume the steps in the reclaim instructions in the tek would work …?

 

[merkin]

Thanks DWFZ - I have accepted that fact and pulled accordingly. My material is quite old and was bought not grown. It was left in the garage afetr I just gave up on the A/B tek cos it was a bit too complex and long winded for me! Loveall just reignited my enthusiasm and boy am I grateful

- stir for 60s

Question on mixing the solvent, do you do this in the French press glass wear or would it be better do do this in a mixing bowl or pie plate?

I tried shroombee's advice with the pulls as stir for 30 sec then let it rest for around three minutes then decant through french press. The 60 sec was Loveall's method with frozen temp EA.

French press is perfect. I mixed the lime water and cactus in bowl as per shroombee and then put the fluffy balls into the french press and went from there all in the french press - pouring out into a coffee filter into collection. Worked well for me.

Just important lesson from my failures (thanks Loveall) - make sure the solvent is clear before adding acid. Let it settle if cloudy but do not proceed with a cloudy solution! Just sayin' cos your green solution in the pic above looks a tad on the cloudy side (see loveall's green solution pic in his thread)

Good luck

 

[MtHighlands]

Thanks DWFZ - I have accepted that fact and pulled accordingly. My material is quite old and was bought not grown. It was left in the garage afetr I just gave up on the A/B tek cos it was a bit too complex and long winded for me! Loveall just reignited my enthusiasm and boy am I grateful

- stir for 60s

Question on mixing the solvent, do you do this in the French press glass wear or would it be better do do this in a mixing bowl or pie plate?

I tried shroombee's advice with the pulls as stir for 30 sec then let it rest for around three minutes then decant through french press. The 60 sec was Loveall's method with frozen temp EA.

French press is perfect. I mixed the lime water and cactus in bowl as per shroombee and then put the fluffy balls into the french press and went from there all in the french press - pouring out into a coffee filter into collection. Worked well for me.

Just important from my failures (thanks Loveall) - make sure the solvent is clear before adding acid. Let it settle if cloudy but do not proceed with a cloudy solution!

Good luck

Ok, I’ll have to try the three min EA rest. Just to be ultra clear, when you say “ make sure the solvent is clear before adding acid”, what was your course of action if it was not clear? In my case the hulk juice had some sediment at the bottom, so I assumed it no bueno, and did a second filter through metal/paper coffee filters.

 

[merkin]

Just to be ultra clear, when you say “ make sure the solvent is clear before adding acid”, what was your course of action if it was not clear? In my case the hulk juice had some sediment at the bottom, so I assumed it no bueno, and did a second filter through metal/paper coffee filters.

I edited the post later but your liquid looks a little cloudy in the pic at the top. Let it rest / settle (in frifge?) until it gets completely clear before you do the salting/acid and decant into another bottle. For me this meant I got some lime not dissolved into the solvent which doesnt help the crystalisation at all.

 

[shroombee]

All great comments, thank you all so much.

I have 65g left of new cactus powder so I might start over with that. How does this sound for subsequent attemp, using shroombee basing technique :

- room temperature water+lime, cactus -> paste
- hand mix paste 8 min in mixing bowl
- rest paste 15 min

About 8 minutes is the time it takes for me to gradually add and fully mix the cactus powder into the milky water. After 8 minutes I'm sure I have evenly mixed paste with no clumps of cactus powder. Then I let it rest 15 minutes.

- cover with room temperature ethyl acetate (100g)
- stir for 60s
- filter with French press, compact only lightly
- secondary filter in to collection jar, using fine metal coffee filter, and paper coffee filter

For 50 grams cactus, I use 150 grams ethyl acetate for the first pull, then 100 grams ethyl acetate for subsequent pulls. I recover about 115 grams solvent from the first pull and almost all of the 100 grams from subsequent pulls. If you are recovering significantly less solvent, then you could go ahead and add more solvent for subsequent pulls. Eventually the cactus won't absorb anymore solvent. Note that I use mild pressure on the french press to get this amount of recovery. Using minimal pressure you will recover 10-15 grams LESS solvent per pull.

Since you are using 65 grams cactus, you might want to scale the amounts up a little. Or you can just use 50 grams of cactus powder and use the extra 15 grams for your next runs.

Question on mixing the solvent, do you do this in the French press glass wear or would it be better do do this in a mixing bowl or pie plate? It would be easiest and quickest to do in the French press, but does the paste have enough surface area exposed to the solvent? Might be a little more hassle to use a separate container in between each pull.

Definitely add the solvent and mix in the french press. That's how I do it and there is plenty of surface area if you added enough solvent. My steps for 3 minute room temperature pulls:

- Add solvent;
- Stir gently for 30 seconds;
- Let rest 2 minutes and 30 seconds (total 3 minutes exposed to solvent);
- While waiting, prepare solvent for next pull. Note that the CIELO tek as written allows for eyeballing the solvent amount to cover the cactus. I'm still weighing precisely to ensure variables remain constant between runs. Eventually I'll just eyeball it;
- Insert plunger;
- Pour solvent through coffee filter into recovery beaker using light/mild pressure. I have the beaker on a scale so I can weigh recovery amounts;
- Remove plunger;
- Repeat from beginning with the addition of fresh solvent;

You don't need to rush this process. Work calmly to avoid making mistakes. But generally you want all your pulls to be complete within 30 minutes from the time of first exposure to ethyl acetate (meaning 6 pulls could be up to 5 minutes each if you were moving slowly). After 30 minutes the paste starts to congeal and we think that interferes with recovery and xtalization.

Edit: Although I say the pull timing is not critical as long as it's less than 30 minutes total, there is some thought that longer pulls extract more plant material, and that potentially interferes with xtalization with difficult cactus. That's why we're experimenting with short chilled pulls. But my cactus (Peruvian Torch from Peru) works fine with the above process.