Everything's learned, nothing's real.

[rjb]

It seems like such an evident statement, but an interesting one nonetheless. It just came into my head, and I have the habit of writing down every little thing that seems important to me. What do you think?

 

[Korey]

Nothing is real?

I don't resonate with that very well.


"Everything is learned, nothing is genuine."

I could dig that more

 

[rjb]

Nope, I meant real. I will explain my way of viewing it: everything that we know today is the result of someone's interpretations. Basically anything is a description of what our senses tell us. So, in that matter, nothing is real, because we simply can't perceive the real, we're just perceiving a description of the real, being limited by our senses, in the same way that if you're looking through an infrared camera you'll see a certain description, whereas if you remove the infrared filter, the description changes radically.

Now, in terms of human interactions, I find this statement to be much more obvious. Think about any process you want, be it a career, doing your own laundry, reading and writing, etc. You can learn how to do that from someone, be it via an institution, reading on the internet or being shown how to do it by a bunch of other people. What you're doing is learning some steps, that's all it is. Some made up steps that just render a certain reproducible result. Nothing suggests it's real. Or maybe I just don't see the link.

It really is all an illusion... :lol:

 

[psychedelic]

The only thing we can say is real is this experience, without labeling it. To understand it better you can all it ''consciousness'' or ''life'' or ''this happening/ NOW '', because there obviously is an experience happening in this moment. What we experience is like through a filter of the senses we have, and constantly attaching ourselves to beliefs and creating our identity and what is ''real'' and what is not ''real'', so I guess to some point it can be conceptual, but to another, deep down the only REAL thing is ''this moment/experience''.

 

[anrchy]

I don't agree with "everything we know today is the result of someone's interpretations"

Because a lot of what I know is a result of my own interpretations. Your description of what is real isn't how I see things at all. This is all very real to me. I am experiencing real. If its not real it really isn't happening and doesn't exist. Sorry but this does exist and I am experiencing something.

 

[psychedelic]

If nothing is real, then what is real?
If where we are living is ALL unreal and an illusion, how did we come up with an idea or ''real''?

When we create the idea of real, we simultaneously create the idea of unreal. Just like hot and cold exist simultaneously, because if there were no ''cold'' then ''hot'' could not be. hah.

So then, if nothing is real, then everything is real.
In other words, if the IDEA of nothing is real, then the IDEA of everything must also be real.

But then you can say: ''I am not talking about the idea of nothing. I am talking about the real... uh oh''

So there, Everything is real and unreal to a conceptual level. But this existence is real. But then once you say it's real you are coming back to a conceptual level of viewing this there unreal exists, so lets just say everything IS. without involving the ''real'' label.

Just freestyling my mind here

 

[christian]

everything that we know today is the result of someone's interpretations.

I understand what you are saying but you are only partially correct. Whilst we have been trained and conditioned from birth to understand our limits, and this has been maintained throught our lives, we do have our own space of freedom withing those laws.

Reality certainly exists and the thing that is different about it is our perception of it. That is where education comes in so that we can learn about certain characteristic properties of that reality, in order to understand if it is a threat or good thing, etc.

Try ignoring a Tiger in the nature! :shock:

 

[rjb]

I don't agree with "everything we know today is the result of someone's interpretations"

Because a lot of what I know is a result of my own interpretations. Your description of what is real isn't how I see things at all. This is all very real to me. I am experiencing real. If its not real it really isn't happening and doesn't exist. Sorry but this does exist and I am experiencing something.

So there, Everything is real and unreal to a conceptual level. But this existence is real. But then once you say it's real you are coming back to a conceptual level of viewing this there unreal exists, so lets just say everything IS. without involving the ''real'' label.

Yes, what you know is the result of your interpretation. You are someone, aren't you? Some other individual might perceive another interpretation, but it's still an interpretation. You can understand what your eyes project into your brain through sight, but you can have no idea what it is that you're perceiving. There's no telling about the REAL nature of that thing, independent of our observation. If it actually exists, that is.

Quantum mechanics states that everything is in a state of existence and non-existence, at the same time. Everything's real and not real at the same time. From that I extract that reality exists only as long as it's looked at, observed. Take this nice little example: you're sitting in front of your computer, a radio plays in the room. Now, the radio waves (sounds) are only there when you are listening to them. If you put headphones on, for example, and play something from your computer, you're no longer interpreting the radio signal, but the computer signal. The headphones will sound louder and will override the "outside the headphones" reality. Does this mean the radio signal is not there anymore? No, it means that both signals exist at the same time, but we're selectively choosing what's "real" to us at that moment. Reality is subjective, after all.

This is just the paradox that we're living, maybe we'll come to a point when things will become more clear than they are now, maybe we'll learn something at some point which will change our understanding. Even if that will be death. In the meanwhile, it's fun to consider the possibilities, even if that's all there is to it: plain old fun.

@psychedelic, I like your approach, I would only like to add this: "everything IS and ISN'T". That describes the state more accurately, because there isn't being without not being.

Thanks everyone for contributing! I find it so facscinating to be alive and be able to wonder about those things...so keep posting!

 

[JuremaSpaceship]

The only thing that's "real" is experience.

 

[Citta]

rjb:

No matter how you turn and twist it, the one thing I (and presumably you and everyone else as well) can conclude without any doubt at all is that the experience we are having of this thing we call life is real. I am talking about consciousness. Is there something that is real in this universe, it is consciousness. There is no way to doubt this, no way at all. Try to doubt your own consciousness! As far as the contents of our consciousness goes however, we can't be a hundred percent sure of course; we can only assume and draw conclusions that seems reasonable, likely and consistent to us.

 

[VIII]

I have to agree that one thing we truly know to be real is our consciousness and our experience.

Sure, our brains essentially hallucinate our waking life, but personally I still believe what we experience is real.

I dont see the point in doubting our own senses either, as it is our only way of interacting with the universe. Our senses work together to confirm that something is real. The relationship of cause and effect are real to me as well. I know if I flick my lighter, then it will create a flame. I know if I hold a flame beneath my open hand, then my hand will burn. I have learned that this is a repeatable fact and therefore it is real.

Doubting our learned knowledge has always been healthy, but I'm not gonna doubt my senses anytime soon.

I've always gotten a kick out of the thought that our brains hallucinate everything we perceive. I've wondered just what the universe truly looks like, but I came to the conclusion that what I see is real. Perhaps I do not see the whole picture, but the part of it that I can perceive is real.

It would be interesting to wonder what might be right in front of us if only we had the correct sense to sense it.

 

[ayanami_rei13]

To OP, mainly, but anyone else who reads these words is also most welcome to do so. I've read yours, after all:

Denying that any experience is real is unreal logic to me.

Like going to sleep. And dreaming.

Same for DMT.

You don't have to forget your dreams. Most people do.


DMT experiences can be forgotten.


But it's harder to deny that they are not real!

They are not logical experiences.

Just because logic is not the only reality, doesn't mean that there is no reality.

I am real, anyway, I hope you are too.


When nothing seems real you are freed from illusion, but doubt yourself.

I'll tell you that I'm free from illusion, and I don't doubt that things are real.

Illusions were not real.

good.

 

[anrchy]

you guys are over complicating a simple understanding IMO.

the radio waves (sounds) are only there when you are listening to them

No. This is not how this works.

Knowledge of the unobserved world
Main article: Observer-expectancy effect

Can we assume the unobserved world functions the same as the observed world? - e.g., "does observation affect outcome?"
A similar question does not involve whether or not an unobserved event occurs predictably, like it occurs when it is observed. The anthropic principle suggests that the observer, just in its existence, may impose on the reality observed. However, most people, as well as scientists, assume that the observer doesn't change whether the tree-fall causes a sound or not, but this is an impossible claim to prove. However, many scientists would argue as follows, "A truly unobserved event is one which realises no effect (imparts no information) on any other (where 'other' might be e.g., human, sound-recorder or rock), it therefore can have no legacy in the present (or ongoing) wider physical universe. It may then be recognized that the unobserved event was absolutely identical to an event which did not occur at all.". Of course, the fact that the tree is known to have changed state from 'upright' to 'fallen' implies that the event must be observed to ask the question at all - even if only by the supposed deaf onlooker. The British philosopher of science Roy Bhaskar, credited with developing critical realism has argued, in apparent reference to this riddle, that:

If men ceased to exist sound would continue to travel and heavy bodies to fall to the earth in exactly the same way, though ex hypothesi there would be no-one to know it[7]

This existence of an unobserved real is integral to Bhaskar's ontology, which contends (in opposition to the various strains of positivism which have dominated both natural and social science in the twentieth century) that 'real structures exist independently of and are often out of phase with the actual patterns of events'.[8] In social science, this has made his approach popular amongst contemporary Marxists - notably Alex Callinicos - who postulate the existence of real social forces and structures which might not always be observable[9][10][11] .

 

[misterfractal55834]

I feel that the whole idea of "the world only exists because our consciousness perceives it to exist" is a little arrogant. It's basically saying that humans are far superior to everything else because our minds create the existence of anything else. It's almost like saying you're a godly being. Only "god" can truly know what actually exists and doesn't. Saying something exists only because you allow it to, is pretty close to comparing yourself to god. This is strictly my opinion. No opinion is correct or wrong.

 

[ayanami_rei13]

This is strictly my opinion. No opinion is correct or wrong.

i agree with you, except that you nullify your own opinion. which is nice and all... but a teacher knows more than a pupil.. a parent more than a child. all knowledge is useful knowledge, but not all opinion is equally valid.

if i was convinced that there are multiple worlds interconnected, and i thought i could literally never die so i killed myself-- that is a huge delusion that people spread unknowingly, which has real consequences for other people.

it may be true as a model.
but no on knows it to be true for sure. they know that it is an idea

except the words convey a different meaning, so recognizing the limits of peoples power of interpretation should not mean that you feel you arent correct. there are undenyable facts.

that was meant as an agreement, if you read it wrongly! speak truth... because others speak lies as truth believing it to be truth!
then we're in a mess. so...

i duuno!
i take it all back!:lol:

 

[Guyomech]

My twist:

1) "Real" is what you percieve and experience (this is strictly a semantic distinction)

2) all realities are subjective- there is no "objective" or "correct" way to perceive the universe.

The notion of "objective reality" seems paradoxical to me. This could only be possible if the entire universe could perceive itself in its entirety, all at once. Perhaps this is the very thing that takes place in the Transcendental Object At The End Of Time, but under normal circumstances it's not likely. That's why the word "real" is most applicable at a personal level- and why people have such a hard time agreeing on what is and isn't real.

 

[ayanami_rei13]

there is no "objective" or "correct" way to perceive the universe.

preservation of life is quite objective. and maybe it's relevant in a thread called "everythings learned, nothings real""?
life is real, opinions are learned. facts of life are facts of life.

 

[misterfractal55834]

Lol don't think so hard. It'll make you go crazy.

 

[Guyomech]

Ayanami: there are certainly facts whose pertinence is common to us all. Nonetheless, we each will perceive these things in our own personally unique ways.

 

[ayanami_rei13]

"the millions shift from side to side... and the wars go on with brainwashed pride" guns n roses
"there's some people you just can't reach." cool hand luke

"we don't need to education" pink floyd


don't think too hard???
lol to that!
- attitudes never change.
bang.
""my baby shot me down"" - with love!!

as confuscious said (sorry if overthinking)

8. If a man takes no thought about what is distant, he will find sorrow near at hand.
17. When you know a thing, to hold that you know it; and when you do not know a thing, to allow that you do not know it – this is knowledge.

ok i'll leave it there. lol at underthinking.

i know that when i smoked dmt for the first time
my thinking altered a bit

and was wrong before

so
ok.