Experimental: Extracting mescaline carbonate bubbling CO2

[Transform]

The salt was formed from a tea with zero alcohol. The issue that may have happened is the pka of carbonic acid is too low to be 'freed' by the hcl. I just checked and the other mescaline hcl that is from my recycled salting experiments was also carbonate salt so two instances that show hcl doesn't replace the carbonate. I considered the pka to be 6.35 but anhydrous is lower.

The alcohol is the experiment I'm gonna test since seems that the salt is also insoluble in ethanol 96%. Even now after 2 hours it didn't dissolve. Unless it is a question of purity? The salt from from the tea using co2 is the expected amount of mescaline I get after the iso99 washes to remove color. IME the 'pure mescaline' has represented 25-35% of the total alkaloids (ONLY once did it represent nearly entire alkaloid content for me and might have just been error on my end)

Ah, OK - I've drawn out the possible mechanisms, regardless


Maybe the "carbonate" has at least been the carbamate all along, if not the urea. Consider how unsubstituted or monosubstituted tryptamines readily form carbamates with CO2, as in the separation methods for NMT.

 

[modern]

Ah, OK - I've drawn out the possible mechanisms, regardless
View attachment 102257

Maybe the "carbonate" has at least been the carbamate all along, if not the urea. Consider how unsubstituted or monosubstituted tryptamines readily form carbamates with CO2, as in the separation methods for NMT.

Ohh seeing this ... I think it was your work... did anyone ever test your h2o2 harmala idea in the wiki?
I was gonna try but started getting more projects going. Which salt was it to which resulting salt? IDK if my red harmine citrate will work since completely different to when I precipitated with titillation.

I have very little understanding on these especially how they attach and replacing. I read a lot of the science madness forums but most goes over my head. I would love to start experimenting to replace more dangerous or unavailable reagents to do the same thing but seems like years of work just to have a good grasp.

 

[Transform]

Ohh seeing this ... I think it was your work... did anyone ever test your h2o2 harmala idea in the wiki?
I was gonna try but started getting more projects going. Which salt was it to which resulting salt? IDK if my red harmine citrate will work since completely different to when I precipitated with titillation.

I have very little understanding on these especially how they attach and replacing. I read a lot of the science madness forums but most goes over my head. I would love to start experimenting to replace more dangerous or unavailable reagents to do the same thing but seems like years of work just to have a good grasp.

Well, I've about forty years of chemistry under my belt, and it's a constant learning process. Give it fifteen years to get good at it as a layperson


The H2O2 idea was originally @professor8's, AFAIK. I just like drawing diagrams

 

[modern]

Posted already in another thread so I'll just link. The mescaline carbonate or carbanate is completely insoluble which may affect the activity... VERY strange to me. I'll test the activity next time I make some. Also I had trouble dissolving even in very high ph lye water. I'm gonna leave it for a day to hopefully freebase and recover.

Is all mescaline salts created equally? Isotopes or just purity?

So while preparing solutions for spotting I decided to test 4mg/ml of each powder fraction of different hcl salts of mescaline. The purist mescaline sample I have been using in all my solubility tests of different salts and even formed a different crystal form has not dissolve what so ever in...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

 

[modern]

So incase this is a carbamate it seems it can be higher bioavailable but potentially a toxic.

"Carbamates exhibit desirable chemical attributes,
including stability in both conformation and metabolism,
coupled with the capability to traverse cell membranes.
Notably, certain carbamates can even breach the blood-
brain barrier (BBB), a significant feat, indicating that
they may exert therapeutic activity in the Central Nervous
System (CNS). Scientific investigation has demonstrated
that introducing a carbamate moiety augments the biological
efficacy of various natural or synthetic compounds featuring
active pharmacophores."

https://www.scielo.br/j/jbchs/a/zBDqq4JGqgfFDwXNWJZMjgc/?format=pdf

Lol in that paper shows some drugs being 12-50 time stronger. So I'll dose at 20mg for my first test and not use any maoi.

 

[modern]

https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/S0021-9673(01)80170-9

The yellow and orange spots may indicate secondary amines so maybe xylene does pull something else but mainly mescaline.

 

[modern]

So with Transform idea I started researching more and maybe carbamate indeed. Strange noone has gotten this salt in so long... I guess the mescaline freebase forms mescaline carbamate rather than carbonate since that is when I first encountered the salt and the properties. Maybe there is a reason it is not well documented?

Dry ice to precipitate NMT carbamate out of NP solvent for ACRB extract - Advanced/Enhanced chemistry - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

@endlessness questioned it 11 years ago.

 

[Transform]

So incase this is a carbamate it seems it can be higher bioavailable but potentially a toxic.

"Carbamates exhibit desirable chemical attributes,
including stability in both conformation and metabolism,
coupled with the capability to traverse cell membranes.
Notably, certain carbamates can even breach the blood-
brain barrier (BBB), a significant feat, indicating that
they may exert therapeutic activity in the Central Nervous
System (CNS). Scientific investigation has demonstrated
that introducing a carbamate moiety augments the biological
efficacy of various natural or synthetic compounds featuring
active pharmacophores."

https://www.scielo.br/j/jbchs/a/zBDqq4JGqgfFDwXNWJZMjgc/?format=pdf

Lol in that paper shows some drugs being 12-50 time stronger. So I'll dose at 20mg for my first test and not use any maoi.

It's generally carbamate esters that have the toxicity issue, not ionic carbamate salts like we're considering here. (Carbamate esters are their own whole class of pesticides.)

Not that this should detract from your precautionary approach with testing the compound - enhanced bioavailability could lead to some surprises, although the (somewhat disturbing) paper you linked to does exclusively deal with the esters.

 

[modern]

It's generally carbamate esters that have the toxicity issue, not ionic carbamate salts like we're considering here. (Carbamate esters are their own whole class of pesticides.)

Not that this should detract from your precautionary approach with testing the compound - enhanced bioavailability could lead to some surprises, although the (somewhat disturbing) paper you linked to does exclusively deal with the esters.

I didn't read much of it just a quick scan.

Thinking about my experience and the fact that my washed mescaline hcl had insoluble salts similar to the carbamate (idk if they form naturally without adding co2) I tested my doses of 50mg with 200 harmala and the "other salts" at 100mg 200 harmala and the experiences were noticeably different. IDK if placebo effect is strong enough to affect duration and euphoria so strongly.

This is a large jump but I can only assume that some of the washed mescaline has mescaline carbamate with it which indeed is more bioavalible. I'll obviously repeat this starting lower without maoi.

Hopefully others can experiment with it since atleast for me the very well washed hcl had much higher euphoria and visuals while 300mg of only the soluble salts had little visuals in comparison but a very nice introspective experience. With tea I assume there are various different salts with different affinities. I always wondered if 'salting' with a fatty acid like Oleic Acid or another. I assumed it would have bioavailability but IDK since how would I test objectively?

 

[modern]

I am currently doing a second attempt at using CO2 bubbling to precipitate the mescaline carbonate. This time I used around 50% ethanol solution to pull the freebase from 1.9g dirty kash extraction (unwashed red/brown crystals). I added calcium hydroxide and some activated charcoal and used vacuum filter to pull the solution. I then bubbled CO2 and it became opaque solution. I then added to freezer overnight and got tiny amount of precipitate which indicated a failure HOWEVER I decided to test ph and it was still over 7 so I bubbled more CO2 and more precipitate formed. Got tired of making CO2 via sodium carbonate and citric acid for fast production so made a yeast generator again I'll leave it bubbling for a few days and check again. CO2 cartridge or dry ice would be really nice to test for those that have access.

No pictures of the precipitate but I'll share in a few days when done. I should have close to 1g-1.9g as the carbonate precipitate. This is considering losses from impurities and the process.

I think it is carbonate rather than carbamate since I am doing it in water solution so carbonaic acid forms.

 

[modern]

So after bubbling co2 overnight I got more precipitate but only yielded about 10% expected weight since I started with 1.9g

The decanted vodka has co2 still bubbling but no more precipitate formed. Either not viable method or solubility is higher than I expected.

Vodka is about 25% so idk if higher would be better but need water for carbonic acid to form.

The precipitate is most likely mescaline carbonate since calcium bicarbonate is very soluble but not impossible it is calcium bi/carbonate just unlikely IMO.

Any ideas? The vodka should still contain over a gram of mescaline so I’ll keep it bubbling to see and maybe evaporate more to test solubility. I know it the carbonate was even insoluble in HCl and other solvents.

Maybe I’ll try freezing again to see now that it is clear and well carbonated.