Extracting DMT from Mimosa Hostilis properly

[Transform]

My naphtha also goes fast to the top after turning the vessel. After around 1-2 minutes it all in the top again. I get around 1,5 % of the MHRB i have. So yes, I think it will work for you too.

The naphtha always settles directly on top - I stir it regularly, but it never really mixes. Can I collect all the DMT this way?

Indeed, the naphtha does not need to mix throughly into the base soup - you're not making mayonnaise, @Perlon! Swirling, rolling or turning end-over-end serve to increase contact between the two phases without breaking up either of the two phases into excessively small droplets. Were this to happen you would risk forming an emulsion - mayonnaise-like, intractable gunk will not allow you to retrieve the DMT cleanly and smoothly.

Perlon, it seems to me like you don't entirely grasp why each of the extraction steps are the way the are, nor what they do. Or can you prove me wrong by describing briefly in your own words what is happening in a STB extraction using naphtha? I get the feeling that performing this quick exercise would be to your benefit.

 

[Perlon]

I use a glass bottle that I can't turn upside down (it leaks and the naphtha stays on top anyway). So I've stirred it with a glass rod so far and shaken it gently twice yesterday. I don't want any emulsions either, so I'd rather avoid shaking?

@Transform So I thought the naptha had to go through the soup to collect the DMT. But if the naphtha always floats to the top, how is it supposed to collect the DMT? When I stir it, it only floats to the top. So what about DMT that is further down in the soup, where the naphtha can't get to? So I shook it carefully yesterday, as turning it upside down is out of the question. Any ideas? Or is it just fine like that?

 

[Transform]

I use a glass bottle that I can't turn upside down (it leaks and the naphtha stays on top anyway). So I've stirred it with a glass rod so far and shaken it gently twice yesterday. I don't want any emulsions either, so I'd rather avoid shaking?

@Transform So I thought the naptha had to go through the soup to collect the DMT. But if the naphtha always floats to the top, how is it supposed to collect the DMT? When I stir it, it only floats to the top. So what about DMT that is further down in the soup, where the naphtha can't get to? So I shook it carefully yesterday, as turning it upside down is out of the question. Any ideas? Or is it just fine like that?

Good questions. It's about the liquid/liquid interface - stirring, shaking, swirling, rocking, rolling, and tumbling will all lead to turnover of the interface between the two phases. DMT freebase will mix and diffuse throughout the naphtha both through fluid currents produced by the stirring and by natural diffusion processes following a concentration gradient. Likewise, these currents and diffusion processes will help the DMT move through the aqueous phase, replenishing it at the phase interface, so it doesn't entirely matter that the naphtha keeps floating to the surface as long as you keep stirring for a sufficient time.

A long-handled HDPE brewing spoon might do a better job of it than a glass rod, and if you can get hold of a glass or stainless steel turkey baster you could use that to inject naphth down to the bottom of the base soup - slowly trace a circular, cloverleaf, flower-shape or similar while doing so to maximise contact between the phases and you'll speed up the process of reaching the equilibrium point/point of saturation of the naphtha.

 

[Perlon]

Good questions. It's about the liquid/liquid interface - stirring, shaking, swirling, rocking, rolling, and tumbling will all lead to turnover of the interface between the two phases. DMT freebase will mix and diffuse throughout the naphtha both through fluid currents produced by the stirring and by natural diffusion processes following a concentration gradient. Likewise, these currents and diffusion processes will help the DMT move through the aqueous phase, replenishing it at the phase interface, so it doesn't entirely matter that the naphtha keeps floating to the surface as long as you keep stirring for a sufficient time.

A long-handled HDPE brewing spoon might do a better job of it than a glass rod, and if you can get hold of a glass or stainless steel turkey baster you could use that to inject naphth down to the bottom of the base soup - slowly trace a circular, cloverleaf, flower-shape or similar while doing so to maximise contact between the phases and you'll speed up the process of reaching the equilibrium point/point of saturation of the naphtha.

Thank you very much for the detailed answer! So a gentle shake seems to be legit. I'll try out the idea with the Turkey baster, i.e. stirring with a glass rod, shaking carefully and using the baster for mixing.

I won't be able to get the naptha out until tomorrow: is it ok if the soup is left like this for 2 days (with regular stirring etc.)?

 

[Transform]

I won't be able to get the naptha out until tomorrow: is it ok if the soup is left like this for 2 days (with regular stirring etc.)?

Yes, that will be fine although your product will probably be a stronger yellow colour. (And I should tag this answer as a FAQ) <<< note to self

 

[Perlon]

Just taken out of the freezer. This is the 1st pull of 500g MHRB and looks very similar to my 1st pull of 100g MHRB. I was expecting more. Hence again the thought that too little DMT was collected

 

[Perlon]

Just taken out of the freezer. This is the 1st pull of 500g MHRB and looks very similar to my 1st pull of 100g MHRB. I was expecting more. Hence again the thought that too little DMT was collected

What about the yellow ones?

 

[Transform]

It's much harder to mix larger extractions properly under domestic conditions, which is one of the reasons why we recommend sticking to the 100 - 200g range for MHRB. Poor mixing will reduce your yields per pull, so you'd need to do more pulls. One option would be to split your extraction in half, since you need to do more pulls anyhow. Waiting time can then be used more productively by swapping between the two extractions.

What about the yellow ones?

Completely normal - it's still virtually pure DMT.

 

[Perlon]

It's much harder to mix larger extractions properly under domestic conditions, which is one of the reasons why we recommend sticking to the 100 - 200g range for MHRB. Poor mixing will reduce your yields per pull, so you'd need to do more pulls. One option would be to split your extraction in half, since you need to do more pulls anyhow. Waiting time can then be used more productively by swapping between the two extractions.


Completely normal - it's still virtually pure DMT.

Yea i guess i have to do some pulls - tomorrow is the 2nd. I might transfer some of the soup into a smaller bottle, having worked with 100 g. I think I will work with less MHRB in the future. It was also somehow easier. Better to handle.

But I still hope that I get at least 1% out of it

 

[Perlon]

Can you see the bubbles? Is that the feared emulsion? Or is that not too bad?
I just don't remember seeing that before.

 

[fractals4life]

That looks like water bubbles on the side of a glass dish full of NPS to me, though they could be air .... Was the dish dry before you added the NPS? I normally see them on the side of the measuring cylinder I use for water washing my NPS?

It's not an emulsion, that would be more like an opaque liquid mousse sort of thing.

I'd empty the NPS into another dry container, that water will probably mostly stay stuck to the glass, so you can then wipe it off and add your NPS back for freezing.

The water might also conglomerate into a pool as you tip the NPS out, so go slow and you can avoid pouring out the water too.

If you leave it in, then you'll get ice in with your product, no biggie (assuming it's clean water ) it'll take longer to dry and the ice crystals will initially look like a lovely large yield ... until they melt and evaporate in a disappointing fashion

 

[Perlon]

That looks like water bubbles on the side of a glass dish full of NPS to me, though they could be air .... Was the dish dry before you added the NPS? I normally see them on the side of the measuring cylinder I use for water washing my NPS?

It's not an emulsion, that would be more like an opaque liquid mousse sort of thing.

I'd empty the NPS into another dry container, that water will probably mostly stay stuck to the glass, so you can then wipe it off and add your NPS back for freezing.

The water might also conglomerate into a pool as you tip the NPS out, so go slow and you can avoid pouring out the water too.

If you leave it in, then you'll get ice in with your product, no biggie (assuming it's clean water ) it'll take longer to dry and the ice crystals will initially look like a lovely large yield ... until they melt and evaporate in a disappointing fashion

I have now taken it out, poured it into another glass and washed off the bubbles - unfortunately small crystals have already formed (after 2 hours in the fridge) - they are gone now.... I hope it wasn’t that much.

I have done this 3 times and the NPS is now back in the absolutely dry glass bottle in the fridge. There are still a few small bubbles but I'm leaving it like this

 

[acacian]

Before pouring into your Pyrex dish, always good to let your non polar solution sit for a little while to allow any moisture beads to fall to the bottom.. after separating you’ll probably notice lots of miniscule droplets of water suspended.. it can take a little while for it to fall to the bottom. Make sure your crystalization dish is completely dry and be very careful when pouring your naptha off.. the moisture beads will be basic so can contaminate your extract with NaOH.

Running through a coffee filter can also help them separate.. for whatever strange reason

 

[Transform]

Can you see the bubbles? Is that the feared emulsion? Or is that not too bad?
I just don't remember seeing that before.

That's water - it's best to allow your pulls to settle in, e.g., a Pyrex jug as (@acacian essentially says) before transferring them to the precipitation dish. Some people put a small amount of concentrated sodium carbonate solution in the bottom of the jug to catch the water droplets more effectively. The concentrated solution helps to dry the naphtha osmotically. Giving it a good swirl helps speed up this process, but I'd still let it stand for a while afterwards just to be sure.

Another thing to be aware of is condensation - was your dish tightly covered in the fridge?

I have now taken it out, poured it into another glass and washed off the bubbles - unfortunately small crystals have already formed (after 2 hours in the fridge) - they are gone now....

I hope it wasn’t that much.

That is a shame - you've unquestionably lost some precious yield there. Why did you wash the crystals away?

 

[Perlon]

Thank you very much for your tips! With my 1st extraction there were no bubbles at all, so it was new to me.

@acacian there were only a few small crystals and i needed the dish, so i washed it all away. i also thought that after a few hours in the fridge it couldn't crystallize that much.

Now it's been in the fridge for about 2 days and i don't see any crystals.. - is that normal? how long does it take in the fridge (depends on the exact temperature of course, but an general estimate)? i've put it in the freezer now.

 

[Perlon]

Oh man ... either I completely destroyed my 2nd pull by washing out the bubbles or there was generally not much DMT in the solution. I had hoped for several g in this pull

That also looks a bit strange. But that must be DMT, right? It hardly looks like crystals ...

 

[Transform]

Oh man ... either I completely destroyed my 2nd pull by washing out the bubbles or there was generally not much DMT in the solution. I had hoped for several g in this pull

That also looks a bit strange. But that must be DMT, right? It hardly looks like crystals ...

Deffo washed your nucleation points down the sink with those water droplets. The remainder has largely oiled out as a result. Probably best to gather it up by dissolving in acetone, followed by evap in a much smaller dish. Use ethanol if you prefer, but it's a bit slower. Either of those will beat scraping up a thin layer of goo with a razor blade.

 

[acacian]

Perlon.. I think it would be beneficial to spend some time reading up on the extraction principles. This way you can avoid the disappointment you’re likely feeling right now. That sort of thing would never have happened if you had a better grasp on all of this.

Regardless, I’’m sorry that it didn’t work out so well this time.. and hey, you still have some dmt there to use. Experientially being an oil doesn’t matter and you can always recrystallize after doing a bit of homework.. but I strongly suggest doing that homework.

 

[Perlon]

Yes, everything went really perfectly the first time. Now with 500g MHRB somehow not at all, where it „hurts“ more…
Apparently I'm going through a learning process here - I only make these mistakes once

Once again, a big thank you to your support - I hope I haven't annoyed you.

 

[acacian]

Hey not at all! We all start somewhere with extraction and make mistakes along the way.. your fortunate here you have some good resources to limit any future ones!