First time will be changa

[nemo1994]

Hello
This is my second post I have started. I’ve done a lot of research on this forum and I’m ready to ask some detailed questions I hope someone is able to either be kindly enough to help or direct me where I can find my answer. Thanks so much

1) best way to get my harmalas for changa?
- I have 10x rue extract , cappi shredded. In other words can I make these two products I already have work for the harmala portion of my changa ?

2) do I need to order cappi leaves and do a 10x extracted harmala from the leaves ?


3) what do I do with these 10x rue seeds extract ? Can I do an extraction of these 10x seeds with alcohol and then for example
My recipe says 300mg harmala , just use 30mg of whatever is extracted from this 10x rue seeds?

I feel this is all I need to know before I attempt my first time. I just don’t get how I can fully extract and incorporate harmala into my changa. Thanks so much

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Not sure how the Rue extract was made. Was it bought, or did you make it? I'm thinking the Rue extract would likely be fine to smoke as is with the problem being what form it is in. Is it a resin?

Caapi leaf is kinda weak, you need to smoke a bunch. I've read that Caapi vine is the same with it also being harsh on the lungs. Caapi leaf is often used for a Changa carrier, something to put the DMT on.

Caapi and Rue feel different. Cappi is more "feminine and healing", more up and less foggy and sedative. Rue is more "masculine and serious/challenging", more sedative, etc..

Anyway, the Caapi would likely need to be concentrated more, and you could likely smoke the Rue now but it might be logistically hard to make into an easy to smoke Changa.

However, I myself actually prefer to smoke the Harmalas separately before the DMT. I've read that others do the same. So then, the only question becomes what inert (or not) herbal material to put the DMT onto. I put mine onto Passionflower, which adds just a little effect, but you could put it onto mint leaves or whatever.

Smoke the Rue until you feel it. It won't be an earth shattering feeling. You'll feel calm and colors might be enhanced a little. Then smoke the DMT on whatever carrier you decide on. That will feel like Changa.

But yeah, if the Rue is a resin you'll likely need to extract it and/or the Caapi to make a nice, easy to use, mixture to smoke.

I'm still half asleep, so
TL/DR: The Rue is likely strong enough to smoke now but physically might not make good Changa.

 

[Transform]

My recipe says 300mg harmala , just use 30mg of whatever is extracted from this 10x rue seeds?

That is most assuredly not how it works. Rue seeds do not have a 100% harmala alkaloid [harmine+harmaline +THH] content - the typical range is 3.5 to 7%. So, assuming your 10× extract has served to concentrate the alkaloids by a corresponding amount, you'd be looking at material with a 35 to 70% harmala content. (That is not necessarily a valid assumption, btw. "10×" simply means that 10g of seeds produces 1g of extract.) Anyhow, if it's correct the dose size needs to be scaled up by the inverse of those percentages:
somewhere between 100/70 and 100/35 - i.e. scaling up by between 1.42 and 2.84 times.

It would be better to isolate the alkaloids from the extract, otherwise you'll be adding 430 - 850mg of the extract to your changa blend, and you ought to take the non-alkaloidal components into account when calculating the mass ratios of the final blend. Would you be happy with the guesswork involved?

 

[nemo1994]

Not sure how the Rue extract was made. Was it bought, or did you make it? I'm thinking the Rue extract would likely be fine to smoke as is with the problem being what form it is in. Is it a resin?

Caapi leaf is kinda weak, you need to smoke a bunch. I've read that Caapi vine is the same with it also being harsh on the lungs. Caapi leaf is often used for a Changa carrier, something to put the DMT on.

Caapi and Rue feel different. Cappi is more "feminine and healing", more up and less foggy and sedative. Rue is more "masculine and serious/challenging", more sedative, etc..

Anyway, the Caapi would likely need to be concentrated more, and you could likely smoke the Rue now but it might be logistically hard to make into an easy to smoke Changa.

However, I myself actually prefer to smoke the Harmalas separately before the DMT. I've read that others do the same. So then, the only question becomes what inert (or not) herbal material to put the DMT onto. I put mine onto Passionflower, which adds just a little effect, but you could put it onto mint leaves or whatever.

Smoke the Rue until you feel it. It won't be an earth shattering feeling. You'll feel calm and colors might be enhanced a little. Then smoke the DMT on whatever carrier you decide on. That will feel like Changa.

But yeah, if the Rue is a resin you'll likely need to extract it and/or the Caapi to make a nice, easy to use, mixture to smoke.

I'm still half asleep, so
TL/DR: The Rue is likely strong enough to smoke now but physically might not make good Changa.

It was bought and the seller did not know exactly how the process was extracted. But it’s a resin that’s 10x the strength but not guaranteed 10x. The resin was then made into a powder for ease of use.

I have tried smoking some on a bowl with calea leaf. It definitely worked I was in a meditative state to explain in the easiest way.

So you are suggesting I take this rue 10x extract and extract it further with an alcohol and then boil off to have a pure form of harmalas? Then add that to my changa?

The rue was quite harsh on the lungs. It’s a brown powder now.

Do you have any suggestion on how to make the pure harmalas in crystal form? I’ve read this is the best way to go but I can’t find any information on it yet. It can be hard to navigate these forums with so much information. From my understanding it’s a little more work to get pure haramalas but from my understanding it’s the best way to dose properly and mix with changa ?

 

[nemo1994]

That is most assuredly not how it works. Rue seeds do not have a 100% harmala alkaloid [harmine+harmaline +THH] content - the typical range is 3.5 to 7%. So, assuming your 10× extract has served to concentrate the alkaloids by a corresponding amount, you'd be looking at material with a 35 to 70% harmala content. (That is not necessarily a valid assumption, btw. "10×" simply means that 10g of seeds produces 1g of extract.) Anyhow, if it's correct the dose size needs to be scaled up by the inverse of those percentages:
somewhere between 100/70 and 100/35 - i.e. scaling up by between 1.42 and 2.84 times.

It would be better to isolate the alkaloids from the extract, otherwise you'll be adding 430 - 850mg of the extract to your changa blend, and you ought to take the non-alkaloidal components into account when calculating the mass ratios of the final blend. Would you be happy with the guesswork involved?

I don’t like guess work and you have explained this perfectly to make complete sense to me. Thanks for that. Now onto the next question, can you guide me on how to isolate this 10x extract that is in resin powder form? Im having a hard time navigating detailed stuff like that on this forum as its a lot of information.

From my understanding if I can learn to isolate the haramalas then I can follow a recipe perfectly. The recipe I have require 300mg haramala and 300 mg dmt. I know how to extract the dmt. Do I just do it the same way the extract ? If I recall right this means using a solvent and then evaporating that solvent off. Will I have haramalas in crystal form then ?

 

[nemo1994]

That is most assuredly not how it works. Rue seeds do not have a 100% harmala alkaloid [harmine+harmaline +THH] content - the typical range is 3.5 to 7%. So, assuming your 10× extract has served to concentrate the alkaloids by a corresponding amount, you'd be looking at material with a 35 to 70% harmala content. (That is not necessarily a valid assumption, btw. "10×" simply means that 10g of seeds produces 1g of extract.) Anyhow, if it's correct the dose size needs to be scaled up by the inverse of those percentages:
somewhere between 100/70 and 100/35 - i.e. scaling up by between 1.42 and 2.84 times.

It would be better to isolate the alkaloids from the extract, otherwise you'll be adding 430 - 850mg of the extract to your changa blend, and you ought to take the non-alkaloidal components into account when calculating the mass ratios of the final blend. Would you be happy with the guesswork involved?

The source says this. I will need to do additional chemistry in order to extract the RUE into pure harmalas. Where can I find this additional chemistry ?

 

[Transform]

Where can I find this additional chemistry ?

Harmalas Extraction and Separation Guide

So I wrote this guide trying to sum up the whole process of harmala extraction in a way that basically anybody can make at home with simple food-safe materials, also with the optional separation of harmine and harmaline.. I added some pictures to make it more interesting and easier to...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

and, more generally, scattered throughout the entire harmala section:

Harmalas

We have drunk haoma and become immortal

forum.dmt-nexus.me

Fortunately, harmala separation will generally be exceedingly simple, arguably simpler even than DMT extraction. Harmala freebase precipitates from aqueous solution with mild base, and the Manske precipitation is often an absolute joy.
More information in the wiki:

Search results for "Rue" - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

The Tao of Rue Extraction has been a go-to for some time, althouch (iirc)there have been a few refinements and additional observations since it was first written.

And yes, you should be able simply to dissolve your rue extract and process it to recover the alkaloids with one of the usual methods.

 

[nemo1994]

Harmalas Extraction and Separation Guide

So I wrote this guide trying to sum up the whole process of harmala extraction in a way that basically anybody can make at home with simple food-safe materials, also with the optional separation of harmine and harmaline.. I added some pictures to make it more interesting and easier to...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

and, more generally, scattered throughout the entire harmala section:

Harmalas

We have drunk haoma and become immortal

forum.dmt-nexus.me

Fortunately, harmala separation will generally be exceedingly simple, arguably simpler even than DMT extraction. Harmala freebase precipitates from aqueous solution with mild base, and the Manske precipitation is often an absolute joy.
More information in the wiki:

Search results for "Rue" - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

The Tao of Rue Extraction has been a go-to for some time, althouch (iirc)there have been a few refinements and additional observations since it was first written.

And yes, you should be able simply to dissolve your rue extract and process it to recover the alkaloids with one of the usual methods.

Thank you so much spending a few hours at the coffee shop making sense of all this
Do you know how I can make a stock solution of sodium carbonate?
For example how much sodium carbonate powder form to distilled water for these recipes of RUE extraction?

Also let me understand this correctly, with 200 grams of RUE seeds and a 3% extraction thats 6grams of pure harmalas from 200 grams of seeds?
I only need .3 grams (300mg) for my recipe. In other words 6 grams of pure harmalas is a lot.. A little bit of seeds goes a long way?

 

[Transform]

Do you know how I can make a stock solution of sodium carbonate?

Well, yes - having some volumetric flasks would definitely be helpful, and maybe a way of titrating your standard solution to check its concentration. Sodium carbonate (SC) has an inconvenient habit, in common with several other stronger bases, of absorbing carbon dioxide from the air, so it has a limited shelf life. This means it doesn't count as what is called a primary standard. Fortunately, though, that level of accuracy is not really required in a harmala extraction.

The main tip is to weigh out your sodium carbonate and then make up the solution to the required volume by adding water - adding the sodium carbonate to a pre-measured volume of water will not be accurate. If the concentration is in moles per litre (mol/L) you need to be able to calculate molecular weights and do a bit of fairly simple arithmetic associated with working out reaction proportions and the like.

A little bit of seeds goes a long way?

Indeed it does - and that's about ten doses of changa you'll have, too! A quick bit of number-crunching shows we'd get one changa dose per gram of seeds at that rate.

One more thing to be aware of when titrating an extraction with SC is that the pH can drop as carbon dioxide gets formed, then rise again as the gas gets expelled from the solution. Again, this is mostly only relevant when attempting to separate the different alkaloids - refer to the VDS thread for further details.

I think this thread will be worth a read too:

TEK - Syrian Rue Seeds to Smokeable Freebase + Consumable HCL [Harmallama Tek]

Harmallama Tek Harmala Freebase and Harmala HCL from Syrian Rue Seeds People continually are asking questions and feeling lost when reading the existing harmala extractions teks. I made this step-wise tek PDF in hopes it might make things easier for some individuals. I have attached the PDF...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

[Shout out @CosmicLion ]

 

[nemo1994]

Well, yes - having some volumetric flasks would definitely be helpful, and maybe a way of titrating your standard solution to check its concentration. Sodium carbonate (SC) has an inconvenient habit, in common with several other stronger bases, of absorbing carbon dioxide from the air, so it has a limited shelf life. This means it doesn't count as what is called a primary standard. Fortunately, though, that level of accuracy is not really required in a harmala extraction.

The main tip is to weigh out your sodium carbonate and then make up the solution to the required volume by adding water - adding the sodium carbonate to a pre-measured volume of water will not be accurate. If the concentration is in moles per litre (mol/L) you need to be able to calculate molecular weights and do a bit of fairly simple arithmetic associated with working out reaction proportions and the like.

Indeed it does - and that's about ten doses of changa you'll have, too! A quick bit of number-crunching shows we'd get one changa dose per gram of seeds at that rate.

One more thing to be aware of when titrating an extraction with SC is that the pH can drop as carbon dioxide gets formed, then rise again as the gas gets expelled from the solution. Again, this is mostly only relevant when attempting to separate the different alkaloids - refer to the VDS thread for further details.

I think this thread will be worth a read too:

TEK - Syrian Rue Seeds to Smokeable Freebase + Consumable HCL [Harmallama Tek]

Harmallama Tek Harmala Freebase and Harmala HCL from Syrian Rue Seeds People continually are asking questions and feeling lost when reading the existing harmala extractions teks. I made this step-wise tek PDF in hopes it might make things easier for some individuals. I have attached the PDF...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

[Shout out @CosmicLion ]

I completely am following. Can you guide me in how many grams of sodium carbonate to distilled water? Like 300 grams sodium carbonate to 1000ml of distilled. I know I will add the weighed sodium carbonate to flask then add water to the proper line.

In regard to the ten doses, I’m going to start very weak so the recipe for 300mg harmala, 300 mg dmt, and 3000mg plant material. It will be 10:1 instead of 1:1. It’s my first time so I want to start low. So I’ll have probably a crap ton not just 10 doses if I get 6 grams of pure harmala haha.

To clarify I get how to seperate the different alkaloids based of PKA or whatever. Pretty much different ph will release the alkaloids differently. So does it really matter what my stock solution is as long as it’s basic enough to be get the crystals to a PH of 8.75 for pure alkaloid extraction ?

When you say a way of titration my standard to know it’s concentration do you mean just to be able to test the ph of my standard? Or is there a way to titrate the standard solution of sodium carbonate that isn’t PH based? How do I do this?

When you mentioned the ph dropping and going back up based off carbon dioxide I need to read up on that. I thought when I get to the part of separating the pure alkaloids it just was mainly important to get the PH to 8.75. You seem to have provided me with the
“ this might happen” so I need to read on the posts you included before I comment more on that. Thanks so much please let me know if anything I said doesn’t make sense.

 

[nemo1994]

Well, yes - having some volumetric flasks would definitely be helpful, and maybe a way of titrating your standard solution to check its concentration. Sodium carbonate (SC) has an inconvenient habit, in common with several other stronger bases, of absorbing carbon dioxide from the air, so it has a limited shelf life. This means it doesn't count as what is called a primary standard. Fortunately, though, that level of accuracy is not really required in a harmala extraction.

The main tip is to weigh out your sodium carbonate and then make up the solution to the required volume by adding water - adding the sodium carbonate to a pre-measured volume of water will not be accurate. If the concentration is in moles per litre (mol/L) you need to be able to calculate molecular weights and do a bit of fairly simple arithmetic associated with working out reaction proportions and the like.

Indeed it does - and that's about ten doses of changa you'll have, too! A quick bit of number-crunching shows we'd get one changa dose per gram of seeds at that rate.

One more thing to be aware of when titrating an extraction with SC is that the pH can drop as carbon dioxide gets formed, then rise again as the gas gets expelled from the solution. Again, this is mostly only relevant when attempting to separate the different alkaloids - refer to the VDS thread for further details.

I think this thread will be worth a read too:

TEK - Syrian Rue Seeds to Smokeable Freebase + Consumable HCL [Harmallama Tek]

Harmallama Tek Harmala Freebase and Harmala HCL from Syrian Rue Seeds People continually are asking questions and feeling lost when reading the existing harmala extractions teks. I made this step-wise tek PDF in hopes it might make things easier for some individuals. I have attached the PDF...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

[Shout out @CosmicLion ]

I’m also guessing there are ways to minimize my ph being reduced from carbon dioxide in the air. Like keeping the lid nice and tight as I’m raising the PH to seperate the alks in the last step? Or maybe working in an air scrubbed “hood “ with the air going through soda lime like kinda like anesthesia machines add soda lime to their equipment to remove carbon dioxide ?

 

[Transform]

The titration of SC would still be kind of pH-based. You'd have a precisely measured amount of a primary standard acid solution, and then titrate that out to a slightly basic endpoint with bromothymol blue as the indicator, which sort of takes into account the dissolved CO2 issue. The volume of SC solution required to neutralise a known volume of standard acid will then show you the concentration of the SC solution at that point in time, after a few sums.

An experiment or two with the controlled atmosphere would be very welcome!

Discussion of the relative merits of ammonia, alkali carbonates and their corresponding hydroxides, along with their particular use cases, can be found in the various harmala and VDS threads. The main considerations are volatility and carbonate content, versus which of a number of acid/base cycles one happens to find oneself in. Ammonia usually comes last because the excess simply evaporates, and carbonates are gentler than hydroxides.

 

[nemo1994]

The titration of SC would still be kind of pH-based. You'd have a precisely measured amount of a primary standard acid solution, and then titrate that out to a slightly basic endpoint with bromothymol blue as the indicator, which sort of takes into account the dissolved CO2 issue. The volume of SC solution required to neutralise a known volume of standard acid will then show you the concentration of the SC solution at that point in time, after a few sums.

An experiment or two with the controlled atmosphere would be very welcome!

Discussion of the relative merits of ammonia, alkali carbonates and their corresponding hydroxides, along with their particular use cases, can be found in the various harmala and VDS threads. The main considerations are volatility and carbonate content, versus which of a number of acid/base cycles one happens to find oneself in. Ammonia usually comes last because the excess simply evaporates, and carbonates are gentler than hydroxides.

Does the true concentration of my stock sodium carbonate really matter for what I’m doing if I know the ph of my stock solution sodium carbonate is at least like 10? If that makes sense

Because in the end I’m just adding the base until I get PH 8.5.

 

[Transform]

Does the true concentration of my stock sodium carbonate really matter for what I’m doing if I know the ph of my stock solution is at least like 10? If that makes sense.

Because in the end I’m just adding the base until I get PH 8.5.

Well, as briefly mentioned above*, not really - only if it was your sole option for addition of base in a pH-controlled separation of harmala alkaloids, and you had no pH meter It would be conceivably useful to know, although not necessarily significantly more useful than simply having weighed out an accurate amount of freshly dried, anhydrous SC prior to making up your solution. Apologies for what now appears to have been a lengthy tangent - but I hope you still found some of the information useful!

*

Again, this is mostly only relevant when attempting to separate the different alkaloids

 

[nemo1994]

Well, as briefly mentioned above*, not really - only if it was your sole option for addition of base in a pH-controlled separation of harmala alkaloids, and you had no pH meter It would be conceivably useful to know, although not necessarily significantly more useful than simply having weighed out an accurate amount of freshly dried, anhydrous SC prior to making up your solution. Apologies for what now appears to have been a lengthy tangent - but I hope you still found some of the information useful!

*

No apologies I’m getting my answers. I think I just have one more question before I solved the sodium carbonate part to making my Changa

Is there really any benefit in getting so particular about absolute pure haramala? Especially if I go the length of raising ph to 8.5 to separate we are talking about some percent of non pure harmala. I will even be trying to isolate alkaloids further using the raising ph to 8.5 method. But is it worth it to really try and worry about ammonia and co2 getting in the way for what I’m doing?

What’s the noticeable difference when it comes to my experience of changa? I have never done dmt only mushrooms. I just do everything 120% lol but sometimes I gotta chill out cuz the benefit of 120% isn’t worth it.

 

[Transform]

No apologies I’m getting my answers. I think I just have one more question before I solved the sodium carbonate part to making my Changa

Is there really any benefit in getting so particular about absolute pure haramala? Especially if I go the length of raising ph to 8.5 to separate we are talking about some percent of non pure harmala. I will even be trying to isolate alkaloids further using the raising ph to 8.5 method. But is it worth it to really try and worry about ammonia and co2 getting in the way for what I’m doing?

What’s the noticeable difference when it comes to my experience of changa? I have never done dmt only mushrooms. I just do everything 120% lol but sometimes I gotta chill out cuz the benefit of 120% isn’t worth it.

Freebase harmala alkaloids initially precipitate out at about 85% purity as combined alkaloids, the rest being known colloquially as "harmala crud". Repeated acid/base cycles clean this up more and more. The number of cycles becomes a matter of personal choice somewhere above three of them. Another aspect of it is the simple joy of tinkering!

Some people prefer to differentiate between the effects of harmaline and harmine in their experiences, and the VDS protocol is arguably the gold standard for separating the two without resorting to (often finnicky) preparative chromatography. Purified harmaline can also be useful for production of THH, which tends to occur in Syrian rue only at much lower levels than those found in caapi.

One further aspect which can get overlooked is the involvement of harmol and harmalol ( ) in whole rue brews, which can get trapped in overly basic extractions though ionisation of their acidic phenolic protons:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S073170850200568X