Goodbye Psychedelic Community

[🌺🔥🫧]

this thread has a politics vibe

 

[Voidmatrix]

It's a completely different world now, practically opposite to traditional human existence in many ways. And the attempt at adaptation of traditional healing rituals may appear ridiculous in various ways. This is perhaps one of the most difficult phenomena to clearly see, make sense of, or define.

I was talking to a friend about something tangential to this. There is an attitude where technology is villified, and seen as unnatural because it's not naturally occurring by virtue of being created by humans. Would you say a birds nest is nature? Many would. So then why is the automobile, the turbine, the cellphone castigated when it too comes from the earth, just by virtue of a grander process. The metal comes from glorious ores in stunning mountains, the rubber around the wires comes from trees.
All this is to say that while I think we have moved away from traditional human existence, that is a part of change in this reality. We need to balance and hybridize nature with technology. Right now, we're out of balance, but it all exists, it's all part of this reality, and as a result as an aspect of essence that is precious and sacred.

All the same, social media still suck

I am quite an outlier to society (even though I never emphasize this and value harmonious interbeing). For much of my life I felt desperate to be understood, but I have finally arrived at the point where I have accepted that there is nobody who can fully understand my reality and I am ok with it.

This is an aspect of my personal story too. I hope you feel my attempts to always understand you @dithyramb

I've had no connection to psychedelic festivals. I've never travelled to South America. In the country where I live even though "normies are rapidly flowing in to the playground," it's still very far from becoming part of the culture. For me also, the most tangible thing that comes to my mind with the words "psychedelic community" is this place.

I feel this too. I've never seen the point. It comes back to playing a part I really feel (I do know a few people who have stuck with it and it really was right for them).

Loved the analogy of void - just as being present till the end of the ceremony, let's let this phenomenon come full circle All the chaos will transform into something meaningful and integrated. And I am referring to the entirety of human culture, not just the matter of psychedelics.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

this thread has a politics vibe

Don't worry, aside from me being passionate about this subject, I immediately saw the potential for this to become political and I'm here to try and check that and keep the productive conversation going.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

There are always ways to monetize and market and if you have enough value. No need to elaborate on what service you provide but if you stop to think there will always be some thing missing or that you can do better that people are willing to pay for. May have to adapt a few times but there is always a market and if you are willing to risk it is worth while if successful.

Thank you for your continued faith and support. It's extremely encouraging (and that's kinda what I need I suppose). I am hoping to be able to pay to get my website put back up.

One love

 

[modern]

@modern I just want to respond to a few things you said. I smell what you're stepping in.

There have been studies that show in medical setting people respond differently to men than women, but that has been reduced to something biological, not a societal mandate. So I do think there are times when "gender" (really they're sex roles when it involves the biology and not an ideal) like when working with certain plants as you've mentioned above.

When I talk about garbage gender roles it involves whether a woman can be logical (they can), whether a woman can be a bread winner (they can), whether a woman can dominate a conversation (they can), whether a man can raise a child (they can), clean a home (they can), or cook a meal (they can). Things that deal more with the mind than biology.

And while an exception is not the rule, it is still extant with the rule, and the exception can always become the rule. It's happened countless times throughout history.


You just hit the nail on the head.

One love

Be able to and being predisposed to I think is where I fall on this issue. Men are predisposed to violence and anger and leadership while the opposite is true for women as a whole. Obviously the opposite can be true but that's far from the norm. Very surface level 'actions' like working, raising kids, and cleaning are just what we generally associate with these topics. We don't send women to war and men are usually in extremely high stress situations more so for a reason. Biologically the hormones and processes of our bodies are predisposed to 'traditional' roles for a reason. The reason for the nuclear family is so we have 'good examples' of the roles to play. There are many poor examples of mothers and fathers but as a whole it is a better process than having to learn everything on your own as a child. Once you become an adult you can make your own choices but I don't agree with raising children 'free'. Again this is personal opinion and experience from my limited observations.

If I seem to be getting political it is not the intent but pretty much everything sums down to is politics, religion and sex/power/money.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they are wrong and I'm right I just miss having debates on opposing sides since everything now is PC and the art of debating is becoming lost. Either don't respond to my posts or say done with this topic in reference to me directly is enough.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Be able to and being predisposed to I think is where I fall on this issue. Men are predisposed to violence and anger and leadership while the opposite is true for women as a whole. Obviously the opposite can be true but that's far from the norm. Very surface level 'actions' like working, raising kids, and cleaning are just what we generally associate with these topics. We don't send women to war and men are usually in extremely high stress situations more so for a reason. Biologically the hormones and processes of our bodies are predisposed to 'traditional' roles for a reason. The reason for the nuclear family is so we have 'good examples' of the roles to play. There are many poor examples of mothers and fathers but as a whole it is a better process than having to learn everything on your own as a child. Once you become an adult you can make your own choices but I don't agree with raising children 'free'. Again this is personal opinion and experience from my limited observations.

If I seem to be getting political it is not the intent but pretty much everything sums down to is politics, religion and sex/power/money.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they are wrong and I'm right I just miss having debates on opposing sides since everything now is PC and the art of debating is becoming lost. Either don't respond or say done with this topic in reference to me directly is enough.

I'm just chopping it up with you. All good.

I think that instead of predisposed I'd say instead has the capacity for. Men have a greater capacity for violence and anger by virtue of testosterone. It can be observed that there are some things that a man may be more physically primed for than women.

And again, times change, environments change, needs change, and roles change. Women are sent to war now, at least in the US. I know plenty of female military personnel. We [men] don't have to be as violent anymore; we've evolved passed that point. And it's shown in many ways.

I think we can reduce things to those topics in a very superficial way, but I think that at the base of it is anxiety and people trying to grasp for straws.

The norm being the norm can also be something that can be looked at in terms of threshold. If we have x phenomena that we're assessing, and 20% of people fall in a category, 10% for category b and then 14 other units (c through p) at 5%, the 20% is normal, and that's not normal by a very wide margin.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they are wrong and I'm right I just miss having debates on opposing sides since everything now is PC and the art of debating is becoming lost. Either don't respond or say done with this topic in reference to me directly is enough.

I ask in order to understand and possibly help, but can you elaborate on how the art of debating has become lost (feel free to respond in a PM if you like).

I think that people just have to be more thoughtful in how they debate.

One love

 

[Jungleheart]

Thank you to everyone for sharing your views, as mine are evolving throughout the conversation.

@modern , I too believe it's better to have a clunky discussion than none at all and I miss that is no longer the norm. @Voidmatrix, I think the issue is that society has determined the most sensitive ways to have these conversations but not all of us are experts on the theories and lingo, so there is a fear of putting your foot in your mouth.

The issue of gender roles is very complex, and a bit off topic from my post. I want to put a bit of thought into it and I will respond tomorrow. I just want it to be known that I am comfortable expressing both "feminine" and "masculine" energy, while presenting myself as feminine and having many feminine hobbies, like nails and makeup, so I think I have the best of all worlds

 

[Animistic]

I always found it annoying when listening to talks or interviews with Kat Harrison that they'd say she is Terrance McKenna's ex wife, like that is what makes what she has to say important? I completely disagree.

I have become slightly more conservative in my opinion of gendered roles as I get older. Not to say that any one man or woman should fit some arbitrary idea of what it means to be a man or a woman but there is a natural biological leaning in most men and women in most cultures towards certain activities. BUT, and it is a big but. I think the idea of masculine and feminine in our westernised cultures is most definitely warped, there is so much more nuance than men chop wood, hunt game and women feed babies and dig for yams, so to speak. Though I would say I would like to see the voices of more "traditionally feminine" women intimately involved in decision making/leading in meaningful ways. A lot of women in positions of power are much more masculine in their approach and so to me there is little difference if there is a man or woman in that authority. The power structure is a masculine one and I don't think it needs to be this way.

There's also masculine as in the archetype of the grandmother, stern, won't put up with shit, will say it like it is but also loving and full of wisdom. I see grandfathers as more nurturing than than are as father's, this is a little less concrete an example, I think probably because of the traumas of the last century that saw many men go off to war and witness/have to do the most brutal, traumatizing of things in the name of "freedom". I think healthy men and women have the capacity to express masculine and feminine traits but there are biological tendencies.

I agree that psychedelic people are better of better service being out in amongst community and agree with the sentiment that there is a shift towards not needing our talking heads, we need our direct experience. Not to say that listening to others is pointless, I very much think it is an important part of making sense and bringing fourth the wisdom inherent in the experiences to light and to culture, just that the echo chamber isn't the place.

I also find some segments of the psychedelic community quite unappealing, seeing parts of it as unhinged, un grounded and indulging heavily in exceptionalism and having messianic tendencies/delusions of grandeur. Being involved with facilitation but not a facilliatator myself I see a lot of this. Then I figure, hey these plants/compounds are medicines and people are trying to heal, then another observation jumps into the frame and says but how many of these behaviours have I seen go away with psychedelics, and honestly the answer is very few.

 

[modern]

I'm just chopping it up with you. All good.

I think that instead of predisposed I'd say instead has the capacity for. Men have a greater capacity for violence and anger by virtue of testosterone. It can be observed that there are some things that a man may be more physically primed for than women.

And again, times change, environments change, needs change, and roles change. Women are sent to war now, at least in the US. I know plenty of female military personnel. We [men] don't have to be as violent anymore; we've evolved passed that point. And it's shown in many ways.

I think we can reduce things to those topics in a very superficial way, but I think that at the base of it is anxiety and people trying to grasp for straws.

The norm being the norm can also be something that can be looked at in terms of threshold. If we have x phenomena that we're assessing, and 20% of people fall in a category, 10% for category b and then 14 other units (c through p) at 5%, the 20% is normal, and that's not normal by a very wide margin.

One love

A norm on global scale. Even national scale... how much of the military of the USA are female personnel? Same with CEO and other topics. Many are quick to say that is because of social oppression but women can just create their own positions as there are many women that have built their own empires. IDK this response was quick I'll probably extend on it later

I ask in order to understand and possibly help, but can you elaborate on how the art of debating has become lost (feel free to respond in a PM if you like).

I think that people just have to be more thoughtful in how they debate.

One love

Most when debating completely belittle the other or don't even consider the other side of the topic... I remember in recent years a national debate team lost the argument that nazis and ww2 was wrong because their argument was it just is. They couldn't logically explain their reasoning and the others even if 'wrong' won the debate due to using references. Was a surreal video at the time to me.

@modern , I too believe it's better to have a clunky discussion than none at all and I miss that is no longer the norm. @Voidmatrix, I think the issue is that society has determined the most sensitive ways to have these conversations but not all of us are experts on the theories and lingo, so there is a fear of putting your foot in your mouth.

The issue of gender roles is very complex, and a bit off topic from my post. I want to put a bit of thought into it and I will respond tomorrow. I just want it to be known that I am comfortable expressing both "feminine" and "masculine" energy, while presenting myself as feminine and having many feminine hobbies, like nails and makeup, so I think I have the best of all worlds

Not a direct attack but another issue is this topic is many times people only use the label or role when it is in their best interest. I wouldn't say nails and makeup is a feminine more personal hygeine but that could just be a race/country thing which some taking more interest in certain things than others.

I don't have the widest vocabulary to articulate that well but usually when I take a role I always take it to the extreme as a measure if it is true or not. Like I mention exceptions are not the norm but if for the vast majority of the times one thing is true I hold it as true. (absurdism) all is meaningless so we try to find meaning.

Maybe my thoughts are just different from a cultural perspective?

 

[Voidmatrix]

@modern , I too believe it's better to have a clunky discussion than none at all and I miss that is no longer the norm. @Voidmatrix, I think the issue is that society has determined the most sensitive ways to have these conversations but not all of us are experts on the theories and lingo, so there is a fear of putting your foot in your mouth.

I get that. I really do. It's interesting because I jump into a lot of discussions that I don't know enough, but have a sagacious reasoning ability to can dance almost anywhere. I think that the people that attack those for "misspeaking" need to also check themselves. Whatever they decide to correct someone on they had to learn at some point too.

I always found it annoying when listening to talks or interviews with Kat Harrison that they'd say she is Terrance McKenna's ex wife, like that is what makes what she has to say important? I completely disagree.

Me too! Why can't people just stand alone in their greatness? This is also not unique to psychedelics. Think about the saying "the next Michael Jordan;" we seem to need to always relate things to something we are already familiar with which tends to dilute the original item.

I have become slightly more conservative in my opinion of gendered roles as I get older. Not to say that any one man or woman should fit some arbitrary idea of what it means to be a man or a woman but there is a natural biological leaning in most men and women in most cultures towards certain activities. BUT, and it is a big but. I think the idea of masculine and feminine in our westernised cultures is most definitely warped, there is so much more nuance than men chop wood, hunt game and women feed babies and dig for yams, so to speak. Though I would say I would like to see the voices of more "traditionally feminine" women intimately involved in decision making/leading in meaningful ways. A lot of women in positions of power are much more masculine in their approach and so to me there is little difference if there is a man or woman in that authority. The power structure is a masculine one and I don't think it needs to be this way.

There's also masculine as in the archetype of the grandmother, stern, won't put up with shit, will say it like it is but also loving and full of wisdom. I see grandfathers as more nurturing than than are as father's, this is a little less concrete an example, I think probably because of the traumas of the last century that saw many men go off to war and witness/have to do the most brutal, traumatizing of things in the name of "freedom". I think healthy men and women have the capacity to express masculine and feminine traits but there are biological tendencies.

I've moved away from using the terms masculine and feminine and have opted to be more symbolically specific. So if something has the "feminine" characteristic of passivity, I just say "passive." If something has the "masculine" characteristic of dominance, I just say it's dominant. The roles we try to place don't apply to all species across the board so in that way is always a bit inaccurate.

I may paint my nails later

I agree that psychedelic people are better of better service being out in amongst community and agree with the sentiment that there is a shift towards not needing our talking heads, we need our direct experience. Not to say that listening to others is pointless, I very much think it is an important part of making sense and bringing fourth the wisdom inherent in the experiences to light and to culture, just that the echo chamber isn't the place.

It seems that when some people get into psychedelics they forget that psychedelics are part of the greater world. It's escapist and spiritual bypassing.

Then I figure, hey these plants/compounds are medicines and people are trying to heal, then another observation jumps into the frame and says but how many of these behaviours have I seen go away with psychedelics, and honestly the answer is very few.

Likely a result of people not realizing there's work to do outside the space too.

One love

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

The psychedelic journey is a personal one. While I may not have discovered psychedelics without the help of those in the psychedelic community, I could go on in my exploration even if there was no community at all.

^^ It's important that we take CARE of our community and cultivate it, so that it IS THERE for people.

The community also needs to come together and make the culture itself something intrinsically valuable and relevant to our cultural psyche. We can't be a bunch of solo psychonauts whose wisdom gets forgotten. Our experiences and wisdoms need to be collected so that we all can benefit from them, and build upon them.

Obviously everyone deserves a seat at the table in this community, including the kids, elderly, LGBTQ+, differently abled people, animals, spirits, etc

These are the things that matter to me most, and I am working to manifest them and get in touch with those that already exist.

What is your world? We all inhabit different worlds. We all have the choice of which eyes we see the world through. We also have the power to embody that which we would like to manifest. Each one of us carries and represents a piece of the psychedelic culture.

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

I've moved away from using the terms masculine and feminine and have opted to be more symbolically specific.

At the very least, I perceive spirit as androgynous rn xD But most of the time, I'm still looking at it, trying to figure it all out!!! haha what is even happening,
you are so much more than I can describe ~
oh my gosh! luv
you look gorgeous today
what a magical happenstance that we are here together

I may paint my nails later

I want to see a you get French nails! xD

 

[Voidmatrix]

I don't have the widest vocabulary to articulate that well but usually when I take a role I always take it to the extreme as a measure if it is true or not. Like I mention exceptions are not the norm but if for the vast majority of the times one thing is true I hold it as true. (absurdism) all is meaningless so we try to find meaning.

Maybe my thoughts are just different from a cultural perspective?

That's okay. I think you're doing great. I'm sorry if it seems I'm attacking you at all. I'm not intending to at all. And you and I seem to think just a little bit different; you're more okay with a generalization (not a bad thing) and I'm neurotic in noticing nuance. It's all good.

I think the last part is important. In many of my statements, I am operating "outside the system" so to speak.

A norm on global scale. Even national scale... how much of the military of the USA are female personnel? Same with CEO and other topics. Many are quick to say that is because of social oppression but women can just create their own positions as there are many women that have built their own empires. IDK this response was quick I'll probably extend on it later

17% of the military was women in the US in 2022.

A question; does something being the norm mean that it's acceptable or unable to change? Slavery was the norm for a while...

We're getting into more complicated territory. Women have been oppressed throughout time. What makes a woman biologically inept to the point that they can't vote? Women in the US have had the right to vote for less than 100 years. Woman also aren't spoken to or with about the ends and outs of say, business, because of societal perspectives that say they're too dumb to be able to do those things. And sure, these perspectives are stated outright as often anymore (unless we're in a redpill rabbit hole), but the treatment is still there. Women are expected to acquiesce to a man in most affairs. Woman aren't cognitively less capable than men. It's just that men are provided information that women are not. The acceptability of certain things also makes it harder for a woman to say, feel confident, in such endeavors because the know they aren't a man.

In 2024, 10% of fortune 500 CEOs were women...

Granted there have been changes that have allowed women in the military and for women to become CEOs, but it takes time for numbers to rise.

Most when debating completely belittle the other or don't even consider the other side of the topic... I remember in recent years a national debate team lost the argument that nazis and ww2 was wrong because their argument was it just is. They couldn't logically explain their reasoning and the others even if 'wrong' won the debate due to using references. Was a surreal video at the time to me.

Well this is a sad story but I'm not surprised. And only a child insults and belittles while debating. They're also breaking a debate rule"no ad hominems. This also highlights the pitfalls of something being "obvious" (obvious that WWII and Nazis were wrong); there's still investigation to be had to double-check. Bertrand Russell made a comment about most things that seem self-evident aren't.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

At the very least, I perceive spirit as androgynous rn xD But most of the time, I'm still looking at it, trying to figure it all out!!! haha what is even happening,
oh my gosh! luv
you look gorgeous today
what a magical happenstance that we are here together


I want to see a you get French nails! xD

Same here. I've been completely without sex or gender in hyperspace.

I aint trying to fork out that much money

One love

 

[Jan e Kharabat]

The problems of our world are complex and not fully explainable using the concepts which are frequently used in the psychedelic community. Quite often people relate a multitude of social problems to a lack of understanding of our selves and our egos, or a lack of understanding of some spiritual realm, or to our inability to truly experience the world in depth. What this discourse leaves out is a sound theory of our social relations, like how the power dynamics and class hierarchies shape our reality and make up the very lens with which we see the world. Lacking an understanding of these concepts, we run the risk of letting the same problematic ideologies creep in from the backdoor which we are struggling to be free of.

Even on the personal level, there is no simple fix for our issues, one cannot simply expect to solve everything by fixing the "psyche", when a great part of that psyche itself is a product of our social reality.

To put it in simple terms, you cannot simply get high and understand the world... you also have to read some theory!

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

An understander! Oh my gosh. Let’s study that one! Yes okay OKAY calm your alien totties. All vote ~ who wants to study this understander? Wow unanimous okay. Where is our earth avatar? Hey! Yes. Tell her we want to study this human, and to let us know when she has a sighting so we can animate into the avatar! This is going to be great! Humans are the best



Ahem sorry, oh yes um, psychedelic community…

 

[Jungleheart]

Very interesting how you seem triggered by the invocation of the divine feminine. Needless to say, there is a lot of chaos going on around the concept of gender in this age. But whatever feels true to you, you should live that fully. Similarly, if others feel in harmony with such concepts, even feel the need for them for certain healing, they should live that fully. IMHO.

I relate most to the archetype of a fierce warrior over any other, if I had to choose one path, that is the path I would choose. Thankfully, I have a privileged existence essentially free of all social pressures where I can be both a warrior and girly at the same time.

 

[modern]

That's okay. I think you're doing great. I'm sorry if it seems I'm attacking you at all. I'm not intending to at all. And you and I seem to think just a little bit different; you're more okay with a generalization (not a bad thing) and I'm neurotic in noticing nuance. It's all good.

I think the last part is important. In many of my statements, I am operating "outside the system" so to speak.


17% of the military was women in the US in 2022.

A question; does something being the norm mean that it's acceptable or unable to change? Slavery was the norm for a while...

We're getting into more complicated territory. Women have been oppressed throughout time. What makes a woman biologically inept to the point that they can't vote? Women in the US have had the right to vote for less than 100 years. Woman also aren't spoken to or with about the ends and outs of say, business, because of societal perspectives that say they're too dumb to be able to do those things. And sure, these perspectives are stated outright as often anymore (unless we're in a redpill rabbit hole), but the treatment is still there. Women are expected to acquiesce to a man in most affairs. Woman aren't cognitively less capable than men. It's just that men are provided information that women are not. The acceptability of certain things also makes it harder for a woman to say, feel confident, in such endeavors because the know they aren't a man.

In 2024, 10% of fortune 500 CEOs were women...

Granted there have been changes that have allowed women in the military and for women to become CEOs, but it takes time for numbers to rise.

Feeling confident and feeling they belong isn’t a barrier placed but that most accept. All the stories I’ve heard of female ceos they all made their own path rather than meeting quotas of equality. Here in Brazil we’ve recently adapted affirmative action like positions that don’t make sense like judges that are not white can answer 50% correct vs 80% correct of white counter parts for the same role. Politics women have also been placed into this quota game and most just enter as tokens and rather than actually run they spend their funds on other candidates.
As for slavery and women voting I don’t have enough information on the topic but considering the time period and significance each placed in history slavery was cheap manual labor force that virtually all countries used throughout history. Right and wrong didn’t play a role more ethical or not. With the logic of right or wrong no nation would have progressed in any regard since someone else’s rights are always infringed on. Be it taking the land of the natives or exploitive labor of children/uneducated/debt ridden.

Many argue today that we still have slavery with extra steps but I think we are going a bit side track.

With women voting besides backwards thinking like they had with black men having low intelligence because of brain volume or something I assume it has something to do with the right to own land or just as a means of control or wanting to be superior? Idk

Regardless of past changes is all change for the better? We have become slaves to taxes and a governance that doesn’t serve the people regardless of side where for the most part your vote doesn’t matter anyways.

But going back to masculine and feminine someone stated “ Kat Harrison that they'd say she is Terrance McKenna's ex wife” as of it devalues her? His name holds more recognition and authority. If it were the opposite the same would be done. Stating her relationship to him would only increase the authority of what she mentions. Maybe this is also a cultural/language issue for me but I don’t see the issue and had zero idea who she was. Usually when you go to a talk you go to hear from someone with perceived authority on the topic. I wouldn’t go to hear a talk about DMT from someone I just met that no one knows but if they presented as partner /cofounder or whatever of someone known as a head figure it would change what they say.



This topic will end nowhere for me and actually getting even further off topic thanks to my inputs. Sorry to have sidetracked so much


I still stand that men do need to remain in those roles since the issues of the world won’t disappear. Men not needing to be violent doesn’t make the fact that majority of violent crimes will continue being committed by men. I think in less privileged locations and situations this topics we discuss are irrelevant and the norm will remain. The roles of men not being the provider and forcing that onto women with or without them wanting it hasn’t helped and in Latin and black communities it has hurt man.

I completely understand what you guys are trying to convey but maybe seeing the less privileged world after living a majority of my life in the US has changed my perspective a lot. We tend to shield ourselves from the rough reality of crime/violence and with the internet being censored you rarely get to see the raw and cruel world that hides behind the vail.

 

[CommonConduit]

To put it in simple terms, you cannot simply get high and understand the world... you also have to read some theory!

Mmmm, ‘understanding’.

How does understanding and underwhelming correlate, I wonder?

Being knowledgeable doesn’t make people compassionate - or enthusiastic - per se?

Moreover, allowing yourself to be affected is hardly an … intellectual pursuit. Wouldn’t want us to make it a basic requirement.