Harmine reducing visuals?

[Noisy]

I noticed a strange thing during my lasts experiments.

When I use harmine in combination with another tryptamine (tried with mushrooms tincture and DMT), it seems to reduce, even to suppress, CEV and OEV.
To give you a little bit more details, here are my latest trials:
- 30mg sublingual harmine 10 minutes before and 2H after ingestion of a mushroom tincture (more or less equivalent to 2g of dried Cubensis)
- 30mg sublingual harmine 10 minutes before vaping 15mg of DMT
- 200mg oral harmine, 30 minutes before vaping 12mg, then 14mg (one hour after), then 18mg (one hour and a half after).

In each case, I noticed a more "serious" experience, more introspective but with a strange feeling, as if my mind shifted from one subject to an other, without logical links. The afterglow was also way much longer. But, as I said, NO visuals when I usually get at least CEV like fractals with those doses of psilocin or DMT.

I'm beginning to explore harmalas world but this is a bit strange to me because everything I red before about mixing harmalas to another tryptamine seemed to emphasize on the potentation it brings.

Anyone also noticed this? Any suggestions?

Thanks a lot, peace.

 

[Jees]

IMHO: the harmalas do help the tryptamines to survive from MAO activity, but on the other hand the harmalas are in itself (and/or its effects like raised serotonine levels = tryptamine-ish) occupying some neuro receptors, meaning those receptors are in that moment not available anymore for the dm-tryptamines for example. Like the harmalas being some competition for the psychonaut tryptamines. The overall effect becoming less psychonaut-trypta-like.
If anything is off with this take-on, please enlighten.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

J. Ott himself has said in his book, Ayahuasca Analogues,
"Maybe we need less ayahuasca in our ayahuasca,"
for precisely this reason. The harmalas simply don't hit that trypta-button quite like the tryptamines themselves do.

 

[Emptiness]

Perhaps you could try moclobemide. It feels a little bit clearer and less nausea too but still changes the trip from just pure dmt. I found harmalas make the CEVs less sharp and more undefined and alters the mood or emotion of the trip. Pure DMT does feel very pure.

 

[Noisy]

Thanks for replies!

Jees: I'm not sure that we could explain this by a competition between the two compounds on 5-HT receptors. DMT, as harmine, have affinities for many neuro-receptors, the alchemy between them is IMHO far more complex than competition. We will certainly need decades of research before to really understand how this works in details!

Emptiness: I exactly felt the same: less sharp CEVs and altered emotions (in fact more like mixed emotions, very strange). Indeed, pure DMT feels more clear. Concerning moclobemide, I prefer to work with plants or plants extracts, don't feel comfortable with medications (perhaps a bit afraid of pharmaceutical industry). I also red that it gives a more sad/dark tone to the experience... Did you tried this combination?

 

[Global]

Getting "NO" visuals from the harmala combination is strange. I however preferred to stop taking harmalas with DMT some years ago. They don't reduce the visuals for me persay, but they do modify them to the point where I prefer experiencing DMT for itself. There is a purity and conciseness to the visuals.

 

[Noisy]

By "no visuals", I meant no fractals patterns, no closed eyes vision, simply, during a few seconds, some colored stains like those you obtain by pushing on your closed eyelids. With open eyes, only most intense colours, no moving patterns, no visualisation of plants growing/moving (something that I usually get from light doses of DMT alone).

 

[Emptiness]

Emptiness: I exactly felt the same: less sharp CEVs and altered emotions (in fact more like mixed emotions, very strange). Indeed, pure DMT feels more clear. Concerning moclobemide, I prefer to work with plants or plants extracts, don't feel comfortable with medications (perhaps a bit afraid of pharmaceutical industry). I also red that it gives a more sad/dark tone to the experience... Did you tried this combination?

I felt harmalas were darker than moclobemide, moclobemide was quite clear, positive and clinical while harmalas where weird but warm. I also felt way less nausea. These drugs perform the same mechanism on the brain, that is, suppressing MAOI. why are you scared of pharmaceuticals? Do you think that we didn't make an artificial MAOI correctly or something?

I also felt a VERY strong afterglow with moclobemide of intensification of colors and subtle cartoonlike feeling, i enjoyed it at the time, it lasted under a week but came back every now and again.

 

[Noisy]

Not really "scared" but I don't feel comfortable using it in an entheogen receipe. I'm quite sure this would alter my trip. Perhaps because I've seen to many people completly stucked in medications addiction...
Thus said, what you explain about Moclobemide is interesting, in particular this very long afterglow. Was it after pharmahuasca or with vaped DMT + oral Moclobemide?

 

[pitubo]

Noisy: in the OP you mentioned specific amounts of DMT consumed in combination with harmalas. Do you have OEV's and CEV's with these same amounts without the harmalas?

In my experiences, harmalas are not an intensity enhancer with smoalked DMT, more a duration enhancer. With mushrooms, it does enhance the intensity. However I would not rate intensity by the amount of "fractals" seen, but rather by the depth of the "visionary" experience. With mushrooms and LSD I have personally noticed over the years that the amount of visuals decreases, but the visionary sensitivity increases.

Emptiness: Moclobemide is a prescription-only pharmaceutical. As such it makes little sense to recommend it over the more readily available harmalas.

Harmalas have been used for ages, both from rue and from caapi, and have a known safety profile. I am not so sure about moclobemide. I looked at its wikipedia page and that looks like it was written by a sales rep - embarrassing for the wiki.

 

[Emptiness]

Emptiness: Moclobemide is a prescription-only pharmaceutical. As such it makes little sense to recommend it over the more readily available harmalas.

Harmalas have been used for ages, both from rue and from caapi, and have a known safety profile. I am not so sure about moclobemide. I looked at its wikipedia page and that looks like it was written by a sales rep - embarrassing for the wiki.

True, it is more expensive and less tested. Still, the clarity is worth a try if only for comparison to harmalas.

Was it after pharmahuasca or with vaped DMT + oral Moclobemide?

vaped DMT + oral Moclobemide with like 5-10mg oral dmt. Didn't vape too much either.

 

[jamie]

harmalas can certainly dull the visionary brilliance of DMT and psilocybin to a degree for myself. They do have some benzo activity and Ott described them to feel like valium, which is not all that far off really. They can add a more dreamy visionary dimension as well but it is more monochrome and much less brilliant and sharp compared to the tryptamines.

 

[Noisy]

@pitubo: Yes, I have CEVs and OEVs with those light doses of DMT alone. And a far deeper experience in term of insights, with clearer thoughts to. I totally agree with you, we can't reduce those experiences to visuals but this was simply the most striking difference, perhaps less subjective to. That's why I asked only about visuals!

@Emptiness: thanks for your reply!

@jamie: I noticed this benzo-like activity with harmin or harmaline alone. I like the dreamy state they induce. I have to study this association a little bit more further but I find it enjoyable with weed. There, in my limited experience, harmalas give me clearer thoughts.

 

[Sandgrease]

I've only used harmalas in Changa but it's noticeably less visual but more emotionally personal compared to just Spice alone.

 

[DreaMTripper]

I've only used harmalas in Changa but it's noticeably less visual but more emotionally personal compared to just Spice alone.

This is what I experienced also, feels spiritual and beautiful and soothing on the body and brain but lacks the 'electricity' and visual aspect of freebase. A guess is that the Harmalas keep serotonin levels up so it competes with DMT for the same receptors while at the same time ensuring serotonin is still interacting with mGluR receptors but dont quote me on it its just a guess from what Ive read how they interact!